Psuedo-academic entertainment for dummies, religious back-patting for the insecure Christian, or truly thought-provoking?

Either way, I searched for a thread on this movie manually (search function is nonfunctional) and determined I'd make the thread. Definately would like to see this.

4/17/2008 6:03:15 PM

Ben Stein has been wrong on just about everything.

4/17/2008 6:07:15 PM

Hmm would have liked a trailer or more info, so I guess I'll link this for future posters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed

Sounds interesting, although you don't see someone coming from that side of the arguement often.

4/17/2008 6:09:29 PM

the only thing i know about this movie is from a video i watched of 2 of the evolutionists featured in the movie.

theres a video of them discussing the movie and talking about how the film maker tried to ban them from the FREE PUBLIC screenings of the movie. the irony of being banned (ie expelled) from a movie about expelling the beliefs of creationists.... i dunno. i'd maybe watch it if it was on tv or something.

4/17/2008 7:22:45 PM

Oooh, I'd love to see that, do you remember where you found the video?

4/17/2008 7:42:30 PM

i would see it out of curiosity but i wouldn't pay to see it

4/17/2008 8:58:46 PM

a discussion started in TSB, which has predictably turned into a science vs. religion debate
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=506830

The guy who got "expelled" from Expelled was PZ Meyers, a biologist who is in the film. He was attending a public screening and was there after signing in with his own name. Ironically, one of his guests was Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, and probably the most outspoken atheist in the world (and who is also featured in the film). I wrote about it in TSB

Quote :

" there was also a bit of a hubbub during a public screening in Minnesota a couple weeks ago. An evolutionary biologist, PZ Myers, signed up for the screening in the Mall of America, and went with his family, and brought along a guest who happened to be in town - Richard Dawkins (both of whom appear in the movie). After signing in and waiting in line to go into the theater, mall security came and pulled PZ out of line and told him that the event organizers would not allow him into the theater (i.e. he was expelled from Expelled). The geniuses didn't recognize Richard Dawkins, though, and let him go on in for the screening. PZ went to the Apple Store in the mall and blogged about it while the screening was still going http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/science/21expelledw.html?_r=1&oref=slogin"

here is the video of Meyers and Dawkins discussing the incident
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2389,Discussion-on-PZ-Myers-being-expelled-from-Expelled,Richard-Dawkins-PZ-Myers

here are some reviews from Scientific American
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=sciam-reviews-expelled
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=ben-steins-expelled-review-michael-shermer
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=ben-steins-expelled-review-john-rennie

and here is a site created by the president of the National Center for Science Education, Eugenie Scott, debunking the claims in the movie and with links to reviews
http://www.expelledexposed.com/

4/17/2008 9:04:29 PM

Quote :

"religious back-patting for the insecure Christian"

Considering Ben Stein is Jewish, probably not.

4/17/2008 9:17:25 PM

Quote :

"Considering Ben Stein is Jewish, probably not."

his audience is obviously the very large Christian majority, though. He obviously sympathizes with them against science.

4/17/2008 9:21:25 PM

Quote :

"Hmm would have liked a trailer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGCxbhGaVfE

4/17/2008 9:51:50 PM

From what I understand, it's not against science but more against the discrimination towards Christian scientists prevalent in the scientific community.

4/17/2008 10:52:39 PM

^ Considering the blatant falsehoods in the trailer there, I can't see how it'd NOT be against science.

4/17/2008 11:04:10 PM

here's the blog of the guy who was kicked out of the screening in Minnesota.
he has an alternate trailer up - http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/pelicans_always_seemed_more_pr.php
and some more info on all the copyright infringement going on in the movie
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/the_sleaze_is_growing.php


...... http://www.expelledexposed.com/

4/17/2008 11:16:15 PM

I'm interested in seeing it. i enjoy ben stein

4/17/2008 11:18:12 PM

enjoying Ben Stein as a boring teacher or on Comedy Central is one thing. Enjoying him as a blathering religious zealot is another....

4/17/2008 11:31:34 PM

Six Things in Expelled That Ben Stein Doesn't Want You to Know...

4/18/2008 12:11:03 AM

Quote :

"From what I understand, it's not against science but more against the discrimination towards Christian scientists prevalent in the scientific community."

plus the whole part where he blames the holocaust on Darwin and atheism

4/18/2008 8:19:56 AM

I've been reading PZ Myer's blog for a long time, and he's got a ton of stuff on Expelled now, and none of it is good. The entry where he was "expelled" was priceless, and it really generated a lot of negative publicity for the film.

If serious ID supporters really make the claim that Darwinism (really, who calls it that anymore?) supported Hitler's agenda (no mention of the Church's support or anything), there is no need to see this movie and support it with your $$. Hell, I don't think they actually define evolution or ID at all!

4/18/2008 8:52:08 AM

I read an article (don't feel like tracking it down right now) "6 Things Ben Stein Doesn't Want You To Know About Expelled"

Long story short, the shenanigans they pulled to make that movie were worse than Borat when it comes to tricking people... just about everything in it is BS.

4/18/2008 12:17:57 PM

promoting a movie is business.

Myers' presence at the movie was bad for business.

The threat to the profitability was removed.


seriously, nothing is wrong with that. He has his own soapbox to shout from, he doesn't need to jump on Stein's...

4/18/2008 1:02:08 PM

well, good buy forever from my favor interesting guy from that one movie and that one gameshow

4/18/2008 1:06:31 PM

Quote :

"the claim that Darwinism (really, who calls it that anymore?)"

well, Creationists and christians, mainly. It's all part of an overall strategy - first they build up Darwin to be some kind of anti-god, evil atheist who was hell-bent on destroying the church. Then they (rightfully, obviously) link him to the Theory of Evolution. Then they take anybody who now believe in evolution, who could otherwise be called evolutionists (even though that's not a relevant term either. Nobody is called a "gravatationalist" or "round-earthist" if they believe in those scientific theories or facts) and instead call them Darwinists, the point being to try to equate modern scientific people not with the science of evolution, but with the supposedly evil person who popularized that theory.

Quote :

"I read an article (don't feel like tracking it down right now) "6 Things Ben Stein Doesn't Want You To Know About Expelled" Long story short, the shenanigans they pulled to make that movie were worse than Borat when it comes to tricking people... just about everything in it is BS."

that was from Scientific American
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know
you're referring to #3, where all the scientists in the movie were interviewed under false pretenses, then their quotes were of course misconstrued and taken out of context.
Also concerning that point, Eugenie Scott talked about her experience with them on an interview on the podcast The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. You can hear her segment at ~31:00 http://www.theskepticsguide.org/skepticsguide/podcastinfo.asp?pid=140

Quote :

"promoting a movie is business. Myers' presence at the movie was bad for business. The threat to the profitability was removed. seriously, nothing is wrong with that. He has his own soapbox to shout from, he doesn't need to jump on Stein's..."

that makes no sense. Put aside for the moment that Meyers was featured in the movie, and that he was kicked out of a movie supposedly about the problem with shutting down alternative viewpoints simply because he has an alternative viewpoint.

But Myers' presence was in no way bad for business, and had nothing to do with profitability. Tell me how Myers attending a free, public screening of the movie, in his hometown, under his own name, would be bad for business, or would be considered jumping on Stein's soapbox? Had they let him in, he no doubt would watched the movie quietly (he was with his family - i doubt he was planning on causing a scene), then gone home and written a review of it. But kicking him out? That gave him more ammunition against the movie and how more people know who he and Richard Dawkins are than ever would have before, not to mention, he would have been able to see the movie at another time and would have gotten to write a review anyway.

[Edited on April 18, 2008 at 2:45 PM. Reason : .]

4/18/2008 2:44:10 PM

a glowing review from the Chicago Tribune
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/movies/chi-18-expelled-review,1,6127461.story

Quote :

" Using loaded language and loaded imagery, Stein and Co. (Nathan Frankowski is the credited director) equate evolution with atheism, lay responsibility for the Holocaust at the feet of Charles Darwin, interview and creatively edit biologists and others (scientists "cast" for their eccentric appearance) to make them look foolish for insisting that science, not religion, can explain creation. .... "Expelled" relies on the viewer's inability or unwillingness to wrestle with a complex corner of science, double-talking its way toward a "must be a miracle" solution to anything that science may not claim to have an answer for. Dismiss that for having no basis in fact, and you're infringing on "academic freedom.""

4/18/2008 4:48:10 PM

haha, PZ Myers just posted this old Calvin and Hobbes on his blog. It sums up the ID'ers point of view pretty well

4/19/2008 4:18:01 PM

hey agentlion.. it's just a movie. probably not worth freaking out over

4/19/2008 5:05:16 PM

fwiw, ben stein does not think the bush tax cuts for the richest 2 percent should continue...hes ok in my book just for being repub and saying that

4/19/2008 5:13:06 PM

1) please point out where I am "freaking out". Everything I've posted here has been simply links to other sites, quotes, or calm and reasoned thoughts of my own.

2) this movie is the culmination of the entire ridiculous Creationist/ID vs. evolution fight, which is in itself symbolic of a larger ideological struggle that this country is facing, which may threaten our scientific and technological superiority in the world.

The problem with this movie is that more people will go and see it than who read, or even know about, the Dover trial outcome. Creationists don't need more propaganda to cling to, and their fight is self-defeating and harmful for this country as a whole. Religion needs to get the hell out of the way of science and allow science and technology to lead us into the future. Stopping the teaching of legitimate science in our schools may not have an immediate impact, but wait 20 or 30 years, and see what happens when the US has a drought of properly educated scientists. As China/India/Asia slowly creep up on and pass the US as world economic powers simply because of their numbers and labor practices (this is inevitable, and will happen at some point), we should at least attempt to remain the world leader in science and technology research. We cannot do this with a theocracy looking over our shoulders.

A slide from Ken Miller's presentation (posted in TSB on page 5 of the Expelled thread) sums this up more elegantly than I can:


if you can't read it, at 68:00 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
"The Creationists found unlikely support among students in China and India"
"Yes America, we would like it very much if you would teach your children religious dogma instead of science.
We would like their jobs"

4/19/2008 5:28:25 PM

watched the movie, and it was exactly as i expected...

biased and one sided... and pitiful attempts at planning scenes and trying to make it look legit.

theater filled with religious people cheering, chanting, and clapping for Ben Stein for "sticking it to the man"

4/19/2008 11:49:05 PM

here's what Ben Stein thinks about science, in general apparently

Quote :

"Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. [PZ] Myers, talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed. … Stein (speaking about the Holocaust): …that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you. Crouch: That’s right. Stein: … Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people. Crouch: Good word, good word. "

it's amazing to have a guy with such a long public and academic career and he thinks that the last time he or any of his family was influenced by "scientists" was in the 1930s.....


it's also amazing how incredulous he is about truthfully presenting evolution or "Darwinsm" - he spent a year making a whole movie about it, but apparently he never bothered to find out what the purpose or goal of the theory of evolution was

Quote :

"Stein: Well, we hope that people who have children in schools will tell their children that if the teacher says Darwinism created everything and that there is no explanation for anything in the scientific world except Darwinism, that the student will say, well, Ms. Smith — or whatever the teacher’s name is — how did life begin? What keeps the planets in their orbits? Is there any proof of a separate species ever being seen to evolve? … Stein: We’re saying teach what is… what the evidence takes you to. I mean, the evidence does not take you to Darwinism about, uh, about, uh, as to the foundations of life. Darwin just had nothing to say about that. The evidence doesn’t take you to Darwinism about astronomy or about the laws of physics or of thermodynamics."

http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/04/28/scientists-are-murderers/

4/29/2008 10:34:42 PM

It's got a 9% on Rotten Tomatoes right now. That's lower than what Catwoman got, lol.

4/30/2008 8:30:06 AM