Quote :

"Health Care Moore's plan emphasizes universal health coverage for children by enrolling all eligible children in Medicaid and Health Choice. He also plans to provide full public coverage to children whose families are up to 250 percent the poverty line. He additionally emphasizes reducing medical errors to reduce the costs associated with them. "

http://www.technicianonline.com/media/storage/paper848/news/2008/04/28/News/Voters.Guide.Race.For.Governor-3363476.shtml[/link]

WTF; this shit has gotten out of hand.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/threshld.html

According to what the poverty line is for a family of four (2parents 2 kids). With this idiot as govenor any family making up to $53000 / year would have gov't provided health care.

This is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. A family making 50K a year who can not "afford" to provide their family with healthcare coverage OBVIOUSLY has their priorities skewed. This would do nothing but encourage working class families to drop responsibility of providing their own health care coverage and just jump on the bandwagon for the government provided program payed for by the tax payer.

Before the liberal camp tries to refute my statement, this is not talking about the single mother of 4 whose bread-winning husband abandons them or the person who was catastrophically injured in an unfortunate life-altering accident. This is about the alleviation of responsibility and subsidization of normal NC citizens of their health care costs pretty much up to the median household income. The bill being passed to the middle class and the lower echelons of the upper class.

This once again brings up the issue. A single person w/ no kids making 40K would not be covered by the plan. A working dad with a stay home mommy and one kid would be covered by Richard Moore's 250% line. If this working dad can not afford to take care of essentials i.e. healthcare for his kid then perhaps he should think twice before having children instead of expecting the tax payer to help him raise his kid. OR maybe mommy needs to get off her ass and get a job to provide the additional necessary income to maintain their desired lifestyle w/o have to rely on handouts from the gov't

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 11:52 AM. Reason : a]

5/6/2008 11:52:38 AM

50k a year for a family of 4 in this area isn't shit - are you retarded?

It costs 150-200+ A WEEK for basic day care if they aren't school age - nearly 1/5th of their pre-tax income.

Edit:

I just went back and read the last paragraph you posted after my initial comment. The amount of life fail you just dropped on us is astounding. Do you have a job? Looked into having kids? Pay a mortgage? Know anything at all about the real world? Or are you just another jerk off who thinks he has a clue?

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 12:06 PM. Reason : edit]

5/6/2008 12:04:14 PM

Quote :

"A family making 50K a year who can not "afford" to provide their family with healthcare coverage OBVIOUSLY has their priorities skewed."

i'm not saying the proposal is right or wrong, but you obviously have no grasp of the cost of living for a family or 4 and how expensive insurance is....

5/6/2008 12:08:04 PM

Quote :

"i'm not saying the proposal is right or wrong, but you obviously have no grasp of the cost of living for a family or 4 and how expensive insurance is...."

5/6/2008 12:15:11 PM

I think its ridiculous to think that someone who is making 50k a year cannot afford health ins. We just purchased my wife insurance for just under 100 a month. I would imagine thier cell phone plans cost more.

5/6/2008 12:21:00 PM

did you purchase it for your 2 kids as well?

and pay their living expenses?

and pay the co-pays everytime they got sick?

5/6/2008 12:22:31 PM

i dono how much it costs a family of 4. Do kids cost less? Mine is like $80 a month for good coverage across the board. (dental, eye, medical) but im single.

some advice to these people though, just because little johnny or sally has a runny nose doesnt mean they need to go to the doctor's office for medication. im wondering how scenarios like this will play out if given free healthcare. Kids already get taken to the doctor's office more than they need to go.

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 12:25 PM. Reason : ]

5/6/2008 12:23:39 PM

thats a good plan...you're lucky.

if both husband and wife are working and making only $25k each, chances are they aren't getting as good of a plan (or any at all).

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 12:26 PM. Reason : s]

5/6/2008 12:25:53 PM

Ok, you can get a family of four 2500 deductible for 181.00 a month. Athem Keycare. Or a 500 deductible for a family of four for 276.

Hey sober, I dont have kids. And if i did, I dont expect you to pay for thier health ins.

5/6/2008 12:26:13 PM

Quote :

"We just purchased my wife insurance for just under 100 a month."

Can you show me that plan? I'm looking to get insurance for my fiance and haven't found anything I'd consider decent for under 175

5/6/2008 12:27:29 PM

Quote :

"50k a year for a family of 4 in this area isn't shit - are you retarded? "

you are right it is not that much. You might not have a BMW in the driveway or a 200K house but it is definitely a livable income.

BTW i fully believe that the current system needs to be overhauled and things changed. McCain advocates a $5000 tax credit on health care expenses for every family to choose their own healthcare plan. Things can be done to reduce health care costs and make health insurance more affordable rather then having the gov't take over and forcing 1/2 the population to subsidize the health care costs of the other half.

I do not know of many normal jobs that pay 40,000+ that do not over some kind of health insurance plan. I also think there is no excuse for companies not to offer some kind of group policy for all their full time employees. However, with the proposed policy even if a company offers a health insurance plan their is not an incentive for employees to choose not to be covered if they can just sign up for the free gov't healthcare system.

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM. Reason : a]

5/6/2008 12:27:31 PM

Quote :

"Hey sober, I dont have kids. And if i did, I dont expect you to pay for thier health ins."

please read:

Quote :

""i'm not saying the proposal is right or wrong,"

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 12:29 PM. Reason : i was just pointing out that you werent comparing the same things.]

5/6/2008 12:27:40 PM

^its time for you to take a stand on whether or not the proposal is right or wrong

5/6/2008 12:29:45 PM

Monky, a great website to shop insurance is http://www.ehealthinsurance.com . THat is who we got our athem through for her, and am very pleased with thier service. I was paying for her through my ins. at work, but it went up to over 400 a month, for a 29 yr old female with no meds.. So we got this plan. Great website, I hope it helps.

5/6/2008 12:30:56 PM

When i worked at harris teeter in high school i knew a guy who work 4-6 hours every Sunday just to be able to get the harris teeter family health insurance plan. I think he had some other week job that did not provide insurance. Heaven forbid a grown man take responsibility and work on a sunday rather then sitting at home drinking beer in order to provide health coverage for his family instead of crying to the gov't.

5/6/2008 12:33:56 PM

We should all have 15 different jobs.

5/6/2008 12:34:25 PM

We should all have the gov't pay for our healthcare, housing, and food. That way we can sit around everyday, smoke pot, and watch cartoons

5/6/2008 12:36:16 PM

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/06/news/economy/foodstamps/index.htm?cnn=yes

Quote :

"The Washington resident's $280 monthly food stamp allotment doesn't last very long these days,"

Are you kidding me $280 is $70/week! What is she eating T-bone steak every night and the pre-prepared foods in the deli. Maybe i could understand if her kid was 15 but the article says 4months. If I go to the grocery store and pay $70 in one visit (i usually buy food for 1-2 weeks under the assumption that i'll eat out or company cafeteria 30-40%) I am like damn i bought a lot of expensive food this week. Heaven Forbid she spend a few of her working dollars on her weekly food budget.

1-Gallon Milk- $4
Box of Cereal- $4
Loaf of Bread- $3
1 lb of sandwich Meat- $7
3 pack boneless chick breast- $6
3 lbs bannanas- $3
Random starchy vegitables (potatos, onions, etc)- <$10
Hamburger Helper w/ 1 lb 85-15 beef- $8
Canned Greenbeans- $1
Canned Corn- $1
Some Lettuce- $3
Can of Beans- $2

Total $52

Hell if i had a $70 budget i could still even spend $18 on beer

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 2:23 PM. Reason : a]

5/6/2008 2:17:46 PM

Just read this thread and get a dose of the real world HUR

http://www.city-data.com/forum/raleigh-durham-chapel-hill-cary/90966-day-care-vs-home-child-care.html

Quote :

"Day care for my son is almost 900/month for a full day program but he's 3 years old. For your infant daughter our school in Cary charges $1200/month which I heard is standard in this area. I personally think tuition here in NC day care centers is very expensive. I had my kids in daycare since they were 2 months old and loved it, but we were living in Florida and only payed 600/month (infant room with 8 babies and 3 teachers). When I contacted a home based care here the only person was going to take care of 8 kids of different ages, with my son being the oldest! Sure, I would have saved money, but I did not think it was the best choice for a 3 year old. Maybe it could be the best choice for your baby since at that age they don't need interactions with other kids and you would save a lot of money rather than having a nanny. Good luck!"

For one 3 year old, $10,800 a year just for day care. A second kid in that same day care would push that cost to 15k and above.

Utilities at 3k a year, rent at 7-10k a year, food at 7k a year, insurance at 4k+ a year and that family has spent 40k. I don't know how much the child credits are, but I have a feeling if they are lucky, they might be at break even status. Good thing they don't care to actually save money for their retirement or their kids futures!

5/6/2008 2:18:57 PM

4 month old kids use a ton of formula that is expensive, i don't have any kids myself but i can imagine 70 bucks a week for just a kid may be plenty, but throw in yourself and your SO and then you're probably looking at closer to ~125 a month.

5/6/2008 2:21:17 PM

I'm not trying to be insensitive to the kids, or to the costs of raising a kid, but I do think that having kids is a big decision and not something to take too lightly, and that financially you should take all those things into consideration...I don't plan on getting married until I stack some more cash in my bank account because I'm currently living quite comfortably but only as one single person...also before I have kids, I want to make sure I can afford to take care of them...so I do think its up to the parents to work an extra job if they need to...I'd hope simply looking into the eyes of your creation would be motivation enough to earn enough extra money to take care of their needs

5/6/2008 2:23:38 PM

Quote :

"For one 3 year old, $10,800 a year just for day care. A second kid in that same day care would push that cost to 15k and above. "

Maybe people need to factor this decision in before deciding to have kids or else they need to be picking up their birth control pill from the clinic.

5/6/2008 2:25:58 PM

People LOVE to brag about where they send thier kid for daycare. I dont know why. But if you think 900 to 1200 a month is childcare is the best you can do, then you probably have more money than brains.

5/6/2008 2:27:57 PM

When my parents were starting out and after I was born; my dad worked two jobs for a few years to provide for our family even after my mom returned to teaching. My parents were raised to value hard work and didn't go to the government expecting assistance just b.c they had increased expenses after having a kid.

5/6/2008 2:28:47 PM

I agree with ^^, ^^^ both of you that a families financial standing should be taken into consideration before having kids, but not all children are planned. Ever heard of twins? Triplets? Should a family that can afford 1 but not 2 avoid having kids because there is a small chance they'll have twins, or more?

Should we as people in the greatest country on earth not be able to experience the joy of children because we can afford them now but won't be able to afford a retirement for ourselves or a college tuition?

^ Dude, wake the hell up. The economy/environment for the middle class is entirely different than it was 20 years ago. Daycare didn't cost shit for you to go to, fuel was cheap (after the late 70s), home prices were cheap, food was cheaper.

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 2:33 PM. Reason : edit]

5/6/2008 2:31:07 PM

Did you seriously throw out twins as an example?

People are talking about people taking responsiblity for their own decisions and you throw out twins. They make up under 2% of births, maybe less than that now.

You should be able to do whatever you can afford. WHat pisses people off is when people neglect thier necessities for luxuries, then expect someone else to bail them out.

5/6/2008 2:38:27 PM

college tuition??

my parents never paid a penny toward my college tuition. Anyone that wants to achieve and go to college can finance their education. The gov't pretty hands out money to anyone coming from a tough financial background and anybody can get gov't funded student loans. That is how i paid for mine; will have a nice 20K bill waiting for me after i walk the stage.


^^ dude you are a joke, my parents had to pay 13% on their first mortgage. If anything houses are CHEAP right now with the deflating housing market and relatively low mortgage rates.

Lastly your twins/triplets thing is a poor example. As many people have multiple kids anyway. If you are a rare exception of having sextuplets or you already have two kids then have triplets; maybe we can make an exception. However, this is not the case 99% of the time. Once again we are alleviating responsibility of young women to not get pregnant from some random dude they met at the club in the first place.


[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 2:46 PM. Reason : a]

5/6/2008 2:39:42 PM

Quote :

"Should we as people in the greatest country on earth not be able to experience the joy of children because we can afford them now but won't be able to afford a retirement for ourselves or a college tuition?"

how bout you work harder so you can afford all of the above

5/6/2008 2:44:41 PM

If you support parents making informed choices when deciding to have children then you should support subsidizing abortions/birth control. You know people are going to have sex, just help them do it more intelligently.

5/6/2008 2:45:45 PM

I do

5/6/2008 2:46:30 PM

i've bought condoms and past girlfriends have bought birth control pills

i dont see why its someone else's responsibility to pay for those things

5/6/2008 2:48:44 PM

Quote :

"You should be able to do whatever you can afford. WHat pisses people off is when people neglect thier necessities for luxuries, then expect someone else to bail them out."

Thats twice (or was it three times now?) that this strawman has been launched into this thread. Please, just leave it out the "if a family didn't splurge on luxuries" argument if you can't do any better than that. Get back to the topic that 50k isn't dick for a family of four.

Btw, I used your link above, two 32 yr old adults, a 7 year old boy and a 4 year old girl, and sorted by price, the cheapest insurance with a 1.5k deductible was $310 a month. Where do you get your number?

Quote :

"my parents never paid a penny toward my college tuition. Anyone that wants to achieve and go to college can finance their education. The gov't pretty hands out money to anyone coming from a tough financial background and anybody can get gov't funded student loans. That is how i paid for mine; will have a nice 20K bill waiting for me after i walk the stage."

Now, thats odd as hell, you're squabbling about health insurance from Uncle Sam, but don't have a problem when he gives you college tuition?

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 2:51 PM. Reason : eit]

5/6/2008 2:50:07 PM

Hell i'd even support gov't subsidized birth control as paying for a pill is a lot cheaper then paying for the social services as well as the net loss due to additional tax credits of someone having an unwanted child. Not to mention the negative social impact of having a child out of wedlock while young and financially unstable.

5/6/2008 2:50:31 PM

I like you sometimes Hur, you know how to think.

5/6/2008 2:51:12 PM

Quote :

"but don't have a problem when he gives you college tuition?"

give != loan

5/6/2008 2:53:38 PM

I think a family can survive on 50K and afford health insurance. I came from that class of family.

Of course, they won't own any special home. Nor will they own any new cars. Some nights the dinner table consists a bun (rice in my situation) and a hotdog. But, that's what it means to be in poverty. You shouldn't be able to afford the extra "stuff". Right?

We didn't have day care growing up. It was dad working two jobs and mom was day care. And once we started elementary, mom would work 1st shift and dad would work 2nd shift so that someone would be home at night with the kids.

But, I guess those days have changed. Everyone wants freebies. They want nice homes, a new car, and $9 movie tickets. No wonder America is going downhill so fast. We have the scum of the earth sucking away at our economy hoping to get ahead on someone elses hard earned dollar.



Good thing I didn't vote for this pandering lamer.

5/6/2008 2:57:19 PM

Quote :

"Lastly your twins/triplets thing is a poor example. As many people have multiple kids anyway. If you are a rare exception of having sextuplets or you already have two kids then have triplets; maybe we can make an exception. However, this is not the case 99% of the time. Once again we are alleviating responsibility of young women to not get pregnant from some random dude they met at the club in the first place."

It's real annoying that every one of your "I don't want the government giving my money to someone" arguments always falls back on the idea that it is some skeeze, lowlife, or some idiot that is getting the handout. If you are going to make a thread about 50k being enough for a family of four, stick to that argument, and stop trying to revert it to the lowest common denominator.

Quote :

"give != loan"

Grant != loan. Also, who is paying the interest that is being deferred while you are in school?

Quote :

"Lastly your twins/triplets thing is a poor example. As many people have multiple kids anyway. If you are a rare exception of having sextuplets or you already have two kids then have triplets; maybe we can make an exception. However, this is not the case 99% of the time. Once again we are alleviating responsibility of young women to not get pregnant from some random dude they met at the club in the first place."

The point is, the unexpected happens frequently enough that it isn't an outlying phenomena, just ask theDuke what he thinks about this subject.


^So, what you are saying that it's a struggle for a family of 4 at 50k a year and we shouldn't help them out out 4k to guarantee they can make it - God forbid one them loses a job (and their insurance) in an economic downtown like the one we are having? I agree, fuck em, maybe their kids will have an easier time than their parents, seems like that is working out well for HUR.

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 3:04 PM. Reason : edit]

5/6/2008 3:01:13 PM

Quote :

"Grant != loan. Also, who is paying the interest that is being deferred while you are in school?"

and who is subsidizing the cost of your state school?

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 3:06 PM. Reason : d]

5/6/2008 3:05:15 PM

THis thread makes me all the more happy that I voted for Richard Moore.

5/6/2008 3:06:53 PM

Hey, and who pays for the roads you drive on to get there? I mean, this path of reasoning is getting a little bit outside of the realm of this thread, don't you think?

Why is there not a problem with government grants for education, and student loans, but there is a problem for health care?

5/6/2008 3:07:26 PM

Quote :

"Now, thats odd as hell, you're squabbling about health insurance from Uncle Sam, but don't have a problem when he gives you college tuition?"

WRONG!!!!!

My parents have worked within the state of NC for over 30 years paying NC income taxes. Therefore i guess you could say indirectly they have paid for the NC subsidy of my public college education. The voters of NC have supported congressmen/women that approve of this thus they feel it is a good allocation of their tax resources.

After all if anything we are an excellent investment on creating future lower middle/upper middle professional/and upper class tax payers to help pay for all the social handouts that those that choose not to take advantage of the opportunities presented to them expect from the gov't.

5/6/2008 3:17:22 PM

Quote :

"government grants for education, and student loans, but there is a problem for health care?"

^I agree with the above poster... also ->

Government Education grants = We are investing in someone that will likely net a return to the economy and may benefit society. So, no problem there.

Student Loans = They have to pay back the loans WITH interest. The economy benefits from their success and from the interest from those loans. So, no problem there.

Health Care Benefits = Poor people are healed... and then... *crickets chirping*

... *odd silence*...

... they get a job at McDonalds and I get my cheese burger faster???

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 3:21 PM. Reason : edit]

5/6/2008 3:20:22 PM

Quote :

"Why is there not a problem with government grants for education, and student loans, but there is a problem for health care?"

I don't wanna get too involved in this shitstorm of a thread, but your grants for education are dependent on keeping a certain level of performance, and in themselves show you are trying to better your individual situation and be a contributing member of society.

furthermore, I don't think anyone really opposes a social saftey net....the problem is, the gov, in essence, gives the money out based on criteria that encourages behavior detrimental to society as a whole, instead of being an actual temporary social saftey net.

5/6/2008 3:20:56 PM

Quote :

"God forbid one them loses a job"

hey! if one of them loses a job they wouldn't be making 50K now would they. Not to mention there is plenty of social programs and company initiatives that take care of these employees upon being laid off.
Nice try though.

I have always supported acute short term gov't assistance for those victim of an unforseen circumstance to assist them back on their feet. This is not what we are talking about though. The issue is people's expectations to live on gov't handouts which started out merely as a safety net but has turned into a hammock whose occupants started in the lower class but is slowly creeping full of those in the working class and even the lower middle class income ranges.

5/6/2008 3:21:37 PM

Makes sense I guess, if kids and families can make it through 18 years of colds, broken bones, and other health issues on their own, then I guess we can go ahead and invest in them since they were the strong ones, right. Brilliantly crafted social engineering if I say so myself.

^ You have yet to show how 50k is adequate for a family of four. I showed you how it isn't, at least, not comfortably. Feel free to refute that post.

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 3:23 PM. Reason : done with this thread until then]

5/6/2008 3:22:12 PM

Quote :

"Health Care Benefits = Poor people are healed... and then... *crickets chirping* ... *odd silence*... ... they get a job at McDonalds and I get my cheese burger faster???"

Was this a joke?

Poor people are healed...then...no longer struggling to maintain a minimal level of existence, they are free to pursue all the opportunities the rest of us have, education, work, etc.


Was that post really for real?

5/6/2008 3:25:42 PM

stella how have you shown 50k isnt enough to live off of? My guess is you are pretty young and come from a well to do family. I also imagine you wont make anywhere near 50k right out of school. So your value of a dollar is pretty skewed.

As for the health ins. I just plugged in two 30 year old adults, and some random numbers for kids under 18. I dont recall what I randomly put in, but those were the numbers it gave me. Which are very affordable.

5/6/2008 3:30:24 PM

Quote :

"hey! if one of them loses a job they wouldn't be making 50K now would they. Not to mention there is plenty of social programs and company initiatives that take care of these employees upon being laid off. Nice try though."

My single income father who lost his job in the textile industry would like to speak to you.

He drained 2k+ month of his retirement on insurance for 1.5 years while he went back to school at 58. Fuck that guy, right? He got help on the community college tuition, but not much on the health insurance, because lets face it, what insurance company wants to roll the dice on a guy at his age?

Quote :

"As for the health ins. I just plugged in two 30 year old adults, and some random numbers for kids under 18. I dont recall what I randomly put in, but those were the numbers it gave me. Which are very affordable."

Give me your numbers, I'd like to repeat the experiment, because the only thing near your figure I could get had a 10k+ deductible.

Quote :

"stella how have you shown 50k isnt enough to live off of?"

Please see my above posts. Daycare costs in this area pretty much kills a family, even a family of 1. Sure, it can be done at 50k a year, but not comfortably. I don't have a problem with some of my taxes helping families like these breath easier by not having to pay that 4 grand a year on health care. The idea that these families are also paying for lots of luxuries is grossly overstated in this thread. With what money (that they don't have) are they doing that?

[Edited on May 6, 2008 at 3:34 PM. Reason : edit]

5/6/2008 3:30:38 PM

Your dad spent 36k on insurance for 1.5yrs? He didnt shop around or is very unhealthy. YOu have to understand that as soon as dad hits 65 then he gets medicare, so the private ins. have to bleed them out while they can.

Using that same website, going with a 1/1/1950 birthday the cheapest ins he could get was 108 a month 5k deductible. not bad

5/6/2008 3:38:07 PM

Quote :

"Poor people are healed...then...no longer struggling to maintain a minimal level of existence, they are free to pursue all the opportunities the rest of us have, education, work, etc."

Or the opportunity to say "fuck it" to a job making $10/hr as a janitor or spending 2 years to at a tech school to earn your associates degree
when you can live on gov't food stamps, subsidized housing, and universal health care your whole life.

This is the problem with liberals they have an idealistic world view that is not very realistic on how the world works. I respect
then humanitarian aspect of your view and idealisticly it would work out this way. However, realisticly people are inherently
looking after themselves/family for the most part and always want the get more while doing less. Why do you think NCSU does just
give out free student parking passes?

Quote :

"My single income father who lost his job in the textile industry would like to speak to you."

Welcome to the real world sweetheart. My dad was laid off for 1/2 a year in 2006. Guess what my dad went out and found a new job while making some
financial sacrifices. For example my dad was hoping to buy a Acura TL b.c he needed to replace his car but instead had to get a 02 Civic.

Quote :

"He drained 2k+ month of his retirement on insurance for 1.5 years while he went back to school at 58. Fuck that guy, right? He got help on the community college tuition, but not much on the health insurance, because lets face it, what insurance company wants to roll the dice on a guy at his age?"

Now u are just trolling and taking everything i said out of context.

5/6/2008 3:44:16 PM