Over the past few months, my name has been circulating as a photographer for Islamic events (engagement parties, Henna parties, wedding parties, etc). Women basically need a photography service in this area where they can count on someone who will take good photos of their celebrations, while living up to my word that I will keep the photos discreet (the ladies are sometimes unveiled, so I do not let men see the photos in post-production).

With the no-men rule, it's hard to be able to offer my clients services such as photo purchasing and album printing, as the pics and books are reviewed by Yours Anonymous in various factories (California and Chattannooga, specifically, and I've never toured the areas where my stuff is actually put on paper).

I just met with a client today who suggested that all I have to do is walk in to a retail photo printing place (which makes professionals sick to their stomachs - photo printing at Wal-Mart can be a far cry from a pro lab) to verify that the employee who will oversee the actual printing is female, but of course there is no guarantee that the employee will be there predictably when the actual photos are rolled out unless you stand there and keep a watch over the process with a hawk-eye. I wouldn't mind doing it of course, but another option occured to me:

Wouldn't it be easier if I could just find a local photo lab where Muslim employees develop the photos (album printing and binding would be a huge next step) where asking for a female to partake in the printing would not be seen as a nuisance?

Does anyone know of such an option or any alternatives?

5/11/2008 11:22:19 PM

just tell them that it is a woman

how the hell are they going to know?

5/11/2008 11:25:49 PM

send them off to terrorstan to get them done

5/11/2008 11:27:10 PM

A.) I'm a chit chat regular and I expected something a little more helpful for the first two respones
B.) A promise is a promise, and to a Middle-Eastern customer, that is vital for business.

5/11/2008 11:30:39 PM

^^^ I agree

They only have to THINK you respect their dumb custom, you don't actually have to respect it. Just don't get caught...

[Edited on May 11, 2008 at 11:31 PM. Reason : ]

5/11/2008 11:31:24 PM

Sounds like your photography business is blowin' up.

5/11/2008 11:32:42 PM

Moron, to give you an idea of how much I respect my clients, I took one of the best shots ever of a Muslim woman unveiled in a dressing room before her engagement party. She was into photography and understood how to really work with me for a successful ad hoc shoot before walking into a room (where 120 or so friends and relatives travelled from overseas to attend the party) and we got our heads together and pulled off 4 or 5 photos of her looking into the mirror at me with her hand next to the reflection of her face. It was so perfectly designed, so elegant, so unlike anything I had ever done, yet I had promised her in contract and in person that not only would males not see the photo in post production, but also that it would not be uploaded to the Internet or used for commercial purposes.

That was past December and I still haven't used it. It would serve my own purposes to do so, yet my Muslim clients greatly appreciate the fact that I do not offer it as part of my online gallery or physical portfolio.

5/11/2008 11:39:04 PM

Maybe it's time to invest in your own dye sublimation printer?

5/11/2008 11:54:40 PM

haha ernie wins

5/12/2008 12:24:24 AM

Actually Charybdisjim does, but I can't afford it for now. At least I don't think so.

5/12/2008 12:30:45 AM

considering the thread title

i think you should go get a capital loan from a bank, buy a dye sub printer & related stuff, go rent space in a strip mall or somewhere, and open a business - "Islamic Photo Processing"

it certainly sounds like the interest is there... and it's unique enough of a service (and in a well defined niche) that it should at least break even...

5/12/2008 7:53:51 AM

I like how you support the tenets of a religion that would stone you to death in the middle of the street for actions, belief, and gender. In my opinion, your just enabling the continuing subjugation of women by an oppressive system based on hate-filled beliefs. At least in this county you can leave the house without a related male escort and drive yourself to purchase a high-end photo printer without risking physical violence.

All that aside, I recommend buying an Epson Stylus Pro 4880 and printing the pictures yourself unless you need a larger format or need to print in bulk.

5/12/2008 8:41:48 AM

islamic people in the US hiring a white woman to take pictures != fundamentalists in middle east

5/12/2008 8:55:43 AM

Quote :

"just tell them that it is a woman how the hell are they going to know?"

yah, really...i mean, respect is great and all, but this isn't a muslim country...i have nothing against the muslim religion or personal beliefs (save for the terrorist types, but that's a far cry from traditional muslim ideals), but it really is stupid for them to be here and think it's all going to be like it is at home in the middle east...do your best to arrange for a female processor, and then stop thinking about it - you can tell them with a clear conscience that a woman is handling it and, as far as you know, it's true

5/12/2008 9:14:37 AM

^^^what a dumb fucking post

5/12/2008 9:16:51 AM

^ Shouldn't you be worrying about your seven wives?

5/12/2008 9:36:53 AM

don't fuck it up, they might "honor kill" you.

5/12/2008 9:50:05 AM

Quote :

"In my opinion"

i dont think Steph is looking for anyone's opinion about muslims, customs or religion.

Quote :

"i think you should go get a capital loan from a bank, buy a dye sub printer & related stuff, go rent space in a strip mall or somewhere, and open a business - "Islamic Photo Processing" it certainly sounds like the interest is there... and it's unique enough of a service (and in a well defined niche) that it should at least break even..."

i think thats a great idea, Evan. I would love to do some research on this to see if it would be a profitable niche. I can not recall any service (esp. local) that could preform such a service but again....trying to create a business model this specific esp. alienating a big demographic scares me.

Im sure up in PA (lots of middle easterners in PA) there is some kind of business like this.

Steph, this is a hard call to make esp. with trying to give guidance...i wouldnt know where to start. Someone who is trying to start their own business needs to build credibility and gain the respect of their customers. Why would she want to lie to her customers when it could possible be detrimental to her goals?

5/12/2008 10:13:39 AM

It's just not good business.

But that Epson printer sure looks nice. Pricey... but nice. Might need to read up on book binding, though - it won't be fancy and it'll be more expensive because it's hand-made, but I've seen a lot of hand-made albums (my pastor got one for his wedding, it was beautifully constructed) and I know it's a common enough craft.

5/12/2008 10:47:10 AM

you can get bound books through Flickr pretty cheap

5/12/2008 11:14:21 AM

Quote :

"It's just not good business."

it's not good business to make the honest effort to accommodate them? because unless you're getting a big bonus for making sure their customs aren't offended, what's BAD business is going out of your way for no profit...nothing about the quality of your work is suffering; rather, it's all in their heads and there is NO negative side to having a non-woman process the pictures

[Edited on May 12, 2008 at 12:10 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2008 12:06:18 PM

Perhaps I don't understand completely, but if your creed is that important to you then perhaps you should start developing your own prints. If you use a digital camera, then why not offer digital albums or hold the unveiled photos and print them at Walmart or wherever yourself and send off the rest that don't need to be processed by a female.
If you don't use a digital camera, then I'm pretty sure there are tons of local photographers that develop their own stuff and would be more than happy to assist you in developing your prints "old school" style.

5/12/2008 12:20:29 PM

^^ It's bad business because she's being paid for an specific service and making sure that service is rendered.

5/12/2008 12:24:46 PM

no, it's bad business promising something she wasn't sure she could deliver

5/12/2008 12:26:38 PM

What she should say is that she will make her best effort to appeal to their wishes, and she should do that. However, if it's not feasible to actually achieve those standards here (price, etc) she should not kill herself to get them done.

She could also charge a premium for these services (if she has to stand over the film developers then she should charge her hourly rate for standing there as long as she has to).

There's nothing wrong with satisfying customers, but they also need to know that special orders do cost more (otherwise you're just shortchanging yourself).

5/12/2008 12:33:47 PM

I'd imagine she can deliver it, she's just asking for the best option available to her to do so.

Also, you may want to look into getting in touch with another local female photographer who could do the printing for you for a slightly higher fee.

5/12/2008 12:36:23 PM

hell, my gf develops her own film, but she uses meredith's studio to do it ("real" film, though)

[Edited on May 12, 2008 at 3:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2008 3:16:54 PM

It sounds like you really LIKE what you do too so don't just look at a dyesub printer+software as a business investment. Think of it like a toy that pays its own rent. Dye sub printers have (some of them) dipped into the range where normal people can at least consider them. Yeah, you're still talking between 1500 and 2000 for under 24 inch format printers though.

Hell, if that doesn't work explain your situation to people at some place like wolf camera and see if they'll let you print it yourself when it's slow there. Obviously they'd still charge normal prices, but I've always liked the people there and if anyone would be accommodating they'd be my first guess.

5/12/2008 7:03:29 PM

That might work. I'm buddies with a guy that works at the one at Cameron Village.

I had one of those way-distant dreams on the way home from work today about starting my own little print/binding operation in the basement. It would be so satisfying to be able to see the pics people buy from me, lol. As it is I upload the pics to printroom.com, they buy them from me via the website, and the website sends me what profit I make off of each sale (like my wedding prices, pics are also dirt cheap at the moment). The downside is the pics are sent directly to the customer. The only products I see of my own are the albums, which I inspect before delivery.

I'm not thinking of getting a dark room or anything, that would be huge and time consuming... just a professional printer like the Epson for starters.

Quote :

"she should not kill herself to get them done."

It might be worth it. If I tap into the Muslim population (huge in Cary and NCSU areas) it would be awesome to be one of the few photogs who can cover their many elaborate and super-classy/sophisticated events with the ability to provide services that cater to their preferences. Just attending an engagement party last December totally opened up my eyes about how much thought, work, and funds go into their functions. It's why I emphasized earlier that those relatives came from Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt... just for the party. I mean, throw an engagement party here and it's candid and laid-back typically, but when you walk into a Muslim event of ceremony and celebration, it felt like a world apart. So much color, formalities, the cake was insane, and the dresses... I'm not going to wrack my brain for adjectives. I think she said it was imported from Dubai.

[Edited on May 12, 2008 at 9:36 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2008 9:28:27 PM

It's only worth it if you charge extra for the extra services you're providing. I'm sure it's nice to have referral clients, but I'm sure they also realize that they're getting a lot for a little if you're charging them standard rates to run marathons instead of walking across the street.

Basically, charge them a little extra (3 hours worth of work?) for the extra they're asking for. It's fair for them and you.

5/12/2008 10:22:48 PM

I have my business designed to include hours, and any hour beyond the agreed package is extra, sure.

5/13/2008 7:29:42 AM

please... Please, just make sure you do your homework with marketing research. 9 out of 10 businesses fail because they didn't do their homework properly and just went in with just an idea. While it's great that you are getting business referral's from the Islamic community and get a sense of what their community needs are, take some survey's and get secondary research tools. There are plenty of free services out there and make sure you definitely get legal help.

I would say don't limit yourself to just the islamic group as that would alienate other clients you may have. I would recommend, if this is the path you want, to provide expertise to middle east and Asian clientele then list out the reasons why. Don't say you cater to islamic ideals (even though that's what you'll be doing), but give them the facts of how you run your business and have them make their own assumptions that you are catering to the islamic population. That's the best advice I can think of at 8 in the morning.

And honestly, I think you do fantastic work but you are really undercutting yourself by a huge margin. While I think you are having fun and getting to know the clients (personality is a huge factor in wedding photography) it's important to remember they are clients, you are there to do a job, and that you have a business to run and support. It's also very hard to upgrade your business when you've been doing a number of clientele's for dirt cheap for so long. When you upgrade your services, make sure you refresh your price points that can handle the new business and equipment.

5/13/2008 8:43:23 AM

^

5/13/2008 8:55:33 AM

Oh and btw, if you do decide to do most of your printing in house, make sure you market that as your services with "handmade" or "personally handled". Anything that has similar words like that adds tremendous value to your clients or prospect clients, especially in event, wedding and boudoir photography no matter what religion they are associated with. When you do your business plan with the updated idea, do projections of where you think your business will be in 1,2 and 5 years and what you want out of it.

I just think that any businesses that associate themselves with religion adds a whole new degree of complexity (is that even a word?) in terms of marketing, especially with one that is not of your own or familiar with. I'm not saying go convert to islam, but understanding their culture, customs and heritage is good idea, maybe read some parts of the Koran and some phrases of their language.

5/13/2008 9:10:14 AM

Quote :

"I like how you support the tenets of a religion that would stone you to death in the middle of the street for actions, belief, and gender. In my opinion, your just enabling the continuing subjugation of women by an oppressive system based on hate-filled beliefs. At least in this county you can leave the house without a related male escort and drive yourself to purchase a high-end photo printer without risking physical violence."

She is fulfilling a business niche that is in short supply and obviously has some demand. It's the American way.

5/13/2008 11:47:50 AM

You should see the ads companies put in christian audio/video tech production magazines. They couldn't care less about religion, but there's big money to be had and they bend out of their way to get it. Think mixing consoles painted white with little doves and crosses screenprinted on them. It's stuff that lame that someone is obviously buying.

5/13/2008 2:26:27 PM

Quote :

" would say don't limit yourself to just the islamic group as that would alienate other clients you may have"

Didn't say I was.

Quote :

"It's also very hard to upgrade your business when you've been doing a number of clientele's for dirt cheap for so long."

I always thought I'd just raise my prices when I was ready (another long discussion, and not for TT) and if they didn't want me, they'd just not book me.

The whole idea behind what I'm doing right now is just testing myself, my clients, and the business altogether with low rates, frequent work, constant drive towards excellence, and learning more than preforming under expectations. Over time I'd like to shift that towards being confident in my work, my business model, raising my rates, frequent work, consistant excellence, and high expectations.

Quote :

"I'm not saying go convert to islam, but understanding their culture, customs and heritage is good idea, maybe read some parts of the Koran and some phrases of their language."

I took a few courses in Islamic history and took about 21 hours of Arabic, but I wouldn't count all of that towards my business model or anything. In the end they tell me what they want and I try to give it to them for a price - expecting them to want something is the last thing I try to do in photography. It would be an option to have stuff home-made, but it shouldn't be the only reason they want me - I want them to want me because I'm good too, right?

I dunno, I suck at business. I should sit down with someone and figure this shit out after this season of experimenting with niches before I try to refine anything and develope my targets.

5/13/2008 7:12:46 PM

Quote :

"So much color, formalities, the cake was insane, and the dresses... I'm not going to wrack my brain for adjectives. I think she said it was imported from Dubai."

What, the bride?

5/13/2008 10:27:33 PM

Pretty much everybody, but the bride was the focus of the attention of course. And she wasn't a bride, it was an engagement party - her bridal gown was far different.

5/13/2008 10:37:37 PM

Quote :

"StellaArtois Who am I now?"

This thread pretty much puts an end to that mystery, huh?

5/13/2008 10:40:47 PM

Yeah, I took it back.

[Edited on May 13, 2008 at 10:41 PM. Reason : Tired of people trading passwords/abusing my street cred, yo]

5/13/2008 10:41:16 PM

Quote :

"I took a few courses in Islamic history and took about 21 hours of Arabic"

Good friends with the Khaters?

Quote :

"Oh and btw, if you do decide to do most of your printing in house, make sure you market that as your services with "handmade" or "personally handled". Anything that has similar words like that adds tremendous value to your clients or prospect clients, especially in event, wedding and boudoir photography no matter what religion they are associated with."

I believe you are confusing "adding value" with "throwing something on here to make more money." Adding value should actually mean that you are doing something extra that they should be willing to pay more for. Just the fact that you are printing your own photos doesn't necessarily add value...in this particular case it does, if it goes along with what the Muslim clients want. Normally though, I personally wouldn't be willing to pay extra just because the photographer prints their own photos.

[Edited on May 14, 2008 at 12:31 PM. Reason : ]

5/14/2008 12:30:22 PM

you're sitting on a mountain of content, Arab Girls Gone Wild.

http://www.arabsexblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/arab-slut-with-big-boobs.jpg

[Edited on June 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM. Reason : keep NSFW shit out of tech talk. - BobbyDigital]

6/1/2008 11:47:00 PM

for the love of god, keep shit like that in chit chat, not TechTalk

6/2/2008 5:17:35 AM

Quote :

"I would say don't limit yourself to just the islamic group as that would alienate other clients you may have. I would recommend, if this is the path you want, to provide expertise to middle east and Asian clientele then list out the reasons why. Don't say you cater to islamic ideals (even though that's what you'll be doing), but give them the facts of how you run your business and have them make their own assumptions that you are catering to the islamic population. That's the best advice I can think of at 8 in the morning."

6/2/2008 5:35:16 AM

perhaps ask some people who have been in the area a long time? (peace st camera or some such)

i would have to assume that there's a woman in the area who has this capability who you can take this stuff to before you have the ability to do it on your own.

6/2/2008 9:47:13 AM

I was going to drop by Peace St - heard they make some nice albums. The only problem is that I will need to print the photo composites and cut them to fit them into the albums... I need a nice place to do that.

6/5/2008 4:27:15 AM

i was trying to say that the people at peace st. may be able to help you find a place to do that

6/5/2008 11:03:03 AM