Seriously, its ridiculous how auto manufacturers have brainwashed so many people into feeling that they NEED an SUV.

A girl I'm friends with is married with one child and a large dog. She acts like she can't live without her Lexus GX470 (props to her husband for driving her old POS Sentra) and yet of course she's bitching about gas prices and gas mileage.

I told her to get a station wagon. She said she "can't see herself" driving one and doesn't think they're big enough once she has another child. I explained to her that my parents had me and 2 other children and never needed anything bigger than a Volvo station wagon for long trips.

How do people get so brainwashed in the head about what they think they "need" to drive???

6/12/2008 3:47:46 PM

the need to fit in

6/12/2008 3:56:00 PM

Could have something to do with their driving skills... wanting to be higher up and in a more powerful vehicle in case of a accident. Also seeing soccer moms in their yukons doesnt help. I'm with ^^, volvo wagons ftw.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 3:56 PM. Reason : ]

6/12/2008 3:56:11 PM

I mean, when I first met this girl she was all into fun cars that handled well and she'd go to AutoXs. I mean, WTF happened.

6/12/2008 3:59:22 PM

What gets me is how some SUV's actually seem to have less cargo room than station wagons... What's up with that?

6/12/2008 4:02:26 PM

It's not about the vehicle, it's about the status symbol.

6/12/2008 4:42:08 PM

6/12/2008 4:52:23 PM

i think this thread is about my gf

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 4:54 PM. Reason : except for the married/kid/dog part]

6/12/2008 4:54:00 PM

the only reason that both my parents dont still drive sedans or coupes is because my dad's work wanted him to get a tahoe

i need a truck 3 times a year...its not worth the expense all the other time

6/12/2008 5:11:28 PM

Good marketing and good dealer sales pitches prolly had a lot to do with it. That and people being stupid.

My family also got by with just station wagons (and one Dodge minivan back in the 80's) and sedans for the longest time. I guess she doesn't realize how small children are. They usually don't need the extra foot of headroom that you'll get in a full-size SUV, or the extra several inches of seat width.

I think a lot of the brainwashing comes from the fact that one person in a social circle got an SUV and won't shut up about how great it is, so everybody else got more and more sold on the idea over the course of several years that they just had to have one.

I'd really rather have a wagon for driving my kids around if I had some reason to justify the wagon space. Otherwise a 5-star rated sedan with a bunch of airbags is good enough for the kids no matter what.

6/12/2008 6:00:10 PM

i think this thread is about my wife

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 4:54 PM. Reason : except for the kid part]

6/12/2008 9:08:27 PM

hahaha-- I guess I'm about to join the group this thread is about...
(minus kid/dog/married part... well unless you count my little sis & dog at home)
But I don't NEED a Jeep... I just want one The POS Focus is depressing. Plus the Focus can't tow a trailer, go offroad, or move anything decently large (i.e. axles, tires, etc ).
moparnum5 tried to get me to let him buy our neighbor's ford taurus before he left-- I said OK, but I wasn't gonna ride in it (some station wagons are OK... and it would be a great parts mover... but UNC blue & a Taurus Wagon... I [no joke] have f*ing nightmares about those things!)

6/12/2008 9:48:38 PM

jamie u need a amc...

6/12/2008 9:50:50 PM

LOL
I'm thinking:

6/12/2008 9:57:23 PM

besides a jeep, what are your other options?

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 9:58 PM. Reason : posted that before i saw you posted^]

6/12/2008 9:58:32 PM

no other options. I like the way they drive (ok, haven't driven a wrangler... that's a new development in the options category). I also haven't decided if I want something on the nicer end, or if I want something on the cheaper end so I don't have to worry about denting it. I guess it just depends on what I find in the next couple months. Otherwise I'll be going back to driving the mexican ambulance

6/12/2008 10:01:20 PM

We had an AMC Hornet we took our family trips in. Mom + Dad + 4 boys from NYC to Tampa FL. We kept the amount of crap we brought with us to a minimum and had one of those Big Mac things strapped to the roof.

Talking about excess... someone made one of those International CXTs into a 45 person limo....
http://www.bigbluelimo.com/bluegallery.html#

-- Dave

6/12/2008 10:14:07 PM

i find it to be more understandable then the guy with the full size truck that NEVER hauls anything.

6/13/2008 12:35:41 AM

Pickup trucks are extremely useful, SUVs are a pretty bad choice from a utility standpoint in most cases. your average housewife would be much better off with a van or a wagon.

6/13/2008 12:51:55 AM

Quote :

"It's not about the vehicle, it's about the status symbol. "

6/13/2008 1:51:53 AM

Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
smells like a steak and seats thirty-five..

Canyonero! Canyonero!

Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down,
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown!

Canyonero! (Yah!) Canyonero!
[Krusty:] Hey Hey

The Federal Highway comission has ruled the
Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving.

Canyonero!

12 yards long, 2 lanes wide,
65 tons of American Pride!

Canyonero! Canyonero!

Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!

Canyonero! Canyonero! (Yah!)

She blinds everybody with her super high beams,
She's a squirrel crushing, deer smacking, driving machine!

Canyonero!-oh woah, Canyonero! (Yah!)

Drive Canyonero!

Woah Canyonero!

Woah!

6/13/2008 6:27:05 AM

It's almost funny that I tow boats and trailers all the time and I don't own a vehicle with a hitch. I borrowed a 4Runner just yesterday.

Owning a trailer ftw. I let my friends use the trailer whenever they want and I never have any trouble borrowing a vehicle when I need to pull it myself. I will probably pick up a truck this year though to be honest.

6/13/2008 6:56:17 AM

Quote :

"Pickup trucks are extremely useful, SUVs are a pretty bad choice from a utility standpoint in most cases. your average housewife would be much better off with a van or a wagon. "

Yes and so is an SUV.

Trucks that haul one guy to work and back and 8 bails of pine needles every spring are NOT extremely useful.

6/13/2008 8:11:44 AM

My SUV is more practical than my truck, out of the rain seats 5 gets ok mileage, just dont get a fullsize suv.

6/13/2008 10:12:25 AM

Man i hope gas prices keep going up. They need to tax the shit out of gas. I cycle in Myers park in Charlotte and it's disgusting how many women i see driving thier excursions, landrovers, and hummers to workout at the country club or just to drive around town while thier husbands are at work. I know it's a stereotype but it's so stupid. Just because you CAN drive your big SUV around town all day with one person in it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

Some people are just complete idiots when it comes to saving money too. My friend just got a job in gastonia and lives near the university. That's a long drive everyday and he drives a v8 jeep cherokee which probably gets like 16-17 MPG. That's like 35 miles one way so like 70 5 days a week. That comes out to be almost 400$/month in gas including driving a little on the weekend. If he bought a car that gets 35+ mpg he would split his gas in half and use that saved money to actually buy the car. I just don't understand why people commute 60-70 miles a day in a car that gets horrible gas milage. He could drop 6-7k on an older civic and still keep the jeep and save a bunch of money, but no he's like "i like the big car". Explain this!?

6/13/2008 11:33:06 AM

i think it's disgusting that bikes are allowed on public roads. they're a danger to motorists, pedestrians, and themselves. they contribute nothing in terms of taxes or registration fees for road upkeep, and rarely have adequate if any insurance coverage in the event of an accident. it's not enough that you leave the rest of us with the burden of the oil problems while you get up on your soapbox and point fingers, but you expect a free ride for everything else too.

if it wasn't for people like me and your "idiot friend" being contributing members of the personal transportation infrastructure, self important ignorant pricks wouldn't have anywhere to nancy around on their toys, wear spandex, and be elitists. do you think roads, bike lanes, etc. just build themselves? does mother earth sprout them forth every spring along with flowers and baby animals?

please keep all the relevant facts in mind the next time you want to leave the real world and go al gore green.



[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 12:26 PM. Reason : .]

6/13/2008 12:21:11 PM

hahah^

you're either being very sarcastic or completely idiotic. I'm not trying to offend but have you ever been out of the country? or to any non-southern city with mass transit? That view of yours is very very limited to the southern US. In most countries in the world bikes are excepted as vehicles and cars have less rights than bikes. Public transit and biking is the most efficient form of transportion in most large cities. If you drive a car in big cities it takes you longer, and costs a shit more to get places. Hell, in london they charge you 8-10 pounds a day as a "congestion" fee simply for driving in the city.

Quote :

"if it wasn't for people like me and your "idiot friend" being contributing members of the personal transportation infrastructure, self important ignorant pricks wouldn't have anywhere to nancy around on their toys, wear spandex, and be elitists. please keep that in mind the next time you want to leave the real world and go al gore green. "

You're kidding right? The so called "personal transportation infrastructure" is only dominant in the south because the infrastructure SUCKS big time and we didn't plan our cities efficiently. If you go to any big city with mass transit, MUCH more people ride mass transit than drive cars, because it's cheaper, faster, and more efficient. There's no reason to drive big cars with one person in them all over the place. It's proven not to work in larger urban areas and it's a waste of resources and money. We're not the "self important ignorant pricks". Do you even know the definition of "ignorant"? How about driving around in a big suv with one person wasting gas and being ignorant to the REAL world. That's ignorance. How can you justify someone driving 70 miles across town and spending 400$/month on gas simply because they CAN and made an idiotic decision to live on the other side of town than they work AND waste a bunch of money driving a low mpg vehicle for the commute. I mean i have nothing wrong with SUVS for thier intended purpose but when you have a SINGLE person driving 70 miles a day at a 17mpg rate than that is just simply stupid.



Just got back from Holland. Bikes were what everyone rode, i didn't see any car parking lots. In fact the bike lanes were wider and more spacious than the car lanes in some parts of Holland we stayed in. And no one was fat either.

Quote :

"please keep all the relevant facts in mind the next time you want to leave the real world and go al gore green."

HAHAHAHAH. LEAVE the world? You're kidding again right? You mean leave the south? lol. THE WORLD is how i described it. Bike and green friendly. Your little southern single occupancy gas-guzzling world is dying very very quickly once people started to become aware of thier mistakes.

But yeah seriously saying "i can't believe bikes are allowed on public roads" is one of the most ignorant, selfish, and sheltered things i've ever heard. That viewpoint would not fly with most of the world.

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 12:52 PM. Reason : .]

6/13/2008 12:44:55 PM

Ivan, I'm confused about who your post is directed at. B/c if its at me I don't get it.

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 12:45 PM. Reason : k]

6/13/2008 12:45:35 PM

^^ To be absolutely fair, Holland is not the rest of the world.

I agree that infrastructure planning around here is crap for anything besides personal vehicles, unless you look at some of the nicer, newer suburbs in the area (lots of bike lanes in Cary that make riding a bike tolerable there, but I wouldn't commute to Raleigh from Cary on a bike).

As for him spending that much on gas to drive a V8 grand cherokee, so what? He wants to drive 70 miles in a car that's not that gas efficient, and he can afford it, and that's ok. He's paying his way and he's not causing any trouble. People are not reasonable consumers, and they like what they like. I really don't want to give up my Jeep cherokee now to drive something more gas efficient because the only things that I can afford that would be more gas efficient would get run off the damn road. I like having something that looks big enough that people don't bully you around on the roads. Hell, maybe that's why he likes his V8, that things bound to have enough pickup to make highway driving fun.

6/13/2008 12:59:14 PM

Clarification. I wasn't saying that this woman shouldn't drive an SUV. I was saying how retarded it is that she thinks she can't get by without one. Especially with her complaining about fuel prices.

6/13/2008 1:07:13 PM

Quote :

"volvo wagons ftw"

6/13/2008 1:14:02 PM

Quote :

"To be absolutely fair, Holland is not the rest of the world."

Holland is at the top, but america is at the bottom in terms of alternative methods of transportation. Did anyone see that top gear where they raced a boat, a bike, public transit, and a car from the west side of london to the east? The bike won, and the car was last. There's plenty of big cities in the world that are bike friendly. Many of the larger cities in Europe like Berlin, Barcelona, and Copenhagen are incredibly bike friendly.

Quote :

"As for him spending that much on gas to drive a V8 grand cherokee, so what? He wants to drive 70 miles in a car that's not that gas efficient, and he can afford it, and that's ok. "

He can't really afford it. He grew up with 2 parents that both drove suvs so it was ingrained in him since he was born. He thinks it's "normal" to drive that far and spend that much money.

So what? Are you kidding me? I'm very glad you recognize the merit in southern city planning and infrastructure but jeez that comment is rediculous. That's the problem with many Americans, they drive something just because they can. There's absolutly NO reason to drive a v8 70 miles a day simply to commute when you can drive a much smaller car that gets much better gas milage, and doesn't pollute as much.

I mean does ONE person in a business suit REALLY need to be driving around a 2 ton piece of mechanical disaster that gets 17mpg 70 miles a day? The modern internal combustion engine was invented more than a century ago and the efficiency of it still sucks. I mean when you consider all the frictional losses of burning a fossil fuel you get like an efficiency of like 25-30$ if that much. I just think in this day in age someone would have thought of a better way to get around than powering big 2 ton chunks of metal around by exploding dead dinosaurs and not even getting all the energy out of it. We've gone to the damn moon and we're still stuck on burning things to power ourselves.

Quote :

"I like having something that looks big enough that people don't bully you around on the roads."

That's rediculous. You rarely see any suvs in most other countries, and they get by fine right? Oh and compare the automobile accidents in America versus other countries. You're not using logic. You don't feel safe driving without a big car because everyone else drives big cars. Everyone else in the world people drives midsize cars so everyone feels safe in midsize cars. It's rediculous. It translates to: oh we spend way too much on gas because everyone else spends way too much on gas!!!

So answer me this. How can everyone else in the world get by without driving big cars (when they need to, they have them available) and yet americans insist on driving these massive cars because they want to feel "safe", and yet Americans are obese and get in more automobile crashes. How does that make sense? Your logic is complete opposite of the truth.

Found these to be funny:

Quote :

"Average speed of a horse cart, London 1909: 7mph. Average speed of an automobile, London 1999: 6mph."

Quote :

"The fuel efficiency of Fords MOST fuel efficient 2003 model, 36mpg, is ONE mile better than the 35mpg of the 1911 Model T. At this rate, Ford will hit 40 MPG by about the year 2350! Now that is technological innovation! "

Quote :

"Deaths by automobile in the suburbs exceed deaths by crime in the cities. "

I mean seriously how many of you have traveled to nyc, london, paris, berlin or any large city with an excellent public transit system? You get back to the south and you realize how stupid everyone is for driving cars around a city and for communiting halfway across the county to go to work every day.

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 1:52 PM. Reason : ..]

6/13/2008 1:35:01 PM

^ blah, blah, blah, i'm a god damned tree huggin hippie


why dont you go lick al gore's ass

6/13/2008 1:39:39 PM

^Ladies and gentleman...the typical stupid, sheltered, redneck response.

Where'd you get that quote from? I can't possibly fathom there are people that go to state who could actually construct a sentence such as the one you just quoted. I applaud your ability to find humor in logic and quote such a sarcastic remark. But mind me, why have the quotes been left out?

On the other hand (i don't know how this would ever be possible) but if you REALLY do mean what you said and are in fact not quoting some idiot, then i also applaud you because that's exactly what i'd expect from someone with a username "buttseks" and one who solely posts in "The Garage" thread.

6/13/2008 2:03:53 PM

who let all these self righteous assholes in here? go fuckin lurk in the lounge hippie-faggot

6/13/2008 2:17:30 PM

Hey newdata, you spelled ridiculous wrong.

6/13/2008 2:22:01 PM

he doesn't have time to spell, he has trees to hug and chipmunks to fuck


yall take over fer me, i gots to go down the holler fo some inbred fuckin and queer chasin and beatin

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 2:31 PM. Reason : ]

6/13/2008 2:23:21 PM

^wow you were serious. So do you have to try or does it just come naturally?

6/13/2008 2:32:48 PM

i bet you one of them gawd danged carpet baggin sum bitches



[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM. Reason : ]

6/13/2008 2:37:29 PM

see now you're just trying. It's no fun anymore.

6/13/2008 2:39:37 PM

Quote :

"Man i hope gas prices keep going up. They need to tax the shit out of gas. I cycle in Myers park in Charlotte and it's disgusting how many women i see driving thier excursions, landrovers, and hummers to workout at the country club or just to drive around town while thier husbands are at work. I know it's a stereotype but it's so stupid. Just because you CAN drive your big SUV around town all day with one person in it doesn't mean you HAVE to."

You're saying they should tax the hell out of everyone because some rich women in Myers Park drive SUVs? You realize that those women are the people who have never worked a day in their life and don't care if it costs $100 or $150 to fill their tank don't you? But yeah, make everyone pay so we can make a handful of housewives think about what they're doing.

6/13/2008 2:40:04 PM

Quit worrying about what everyone else is driving you pretentious hippy. Gas prices will eventually change what everybody drives...the problem will sort itself out.

6/13/2008 2:46:16 PM

Quit worrying about what everyone else is driving you pretentious hippy. Gas prices will eventually change what everybody drives...the problem will sort itself out.

6/13/2008 2:50:14 PM

^^^i kinda mentioned that stereotype so someone would comment on it and fullfill it. And i also appreciate you actually trying to bring a point to the table instead of simply spouting off some nonsense atttempt at an insult.

Quote :

"You're saying they should tax the hell out of everyone because some rich women in Myers Park drive SUVs? "

You realize gas in america is cheaper than most other nations? We don't tax gas nearly as much as many other countries. I'm not saying simply because of the housewives that drive suvs. I'm saying because of everyone who drives suvs. If you take london for example, they tax the shit out of gas, and guess what happened as a result? You get better public transit, there's less pollution from the cars, people get to work faster, and everyone is happier.

^^exactly, like everywhere else in the world high gas prices have caused nations to rethink thier infrastructure and increase public transit availability. America is following the model that other countries have taken. For example in Charlotte the new light rail system on South Blvd. is packed daily and new developtment has popped up all along the rail line. Because of this they are planning light rail systems all over the city. Now people can hop right on the light rail and get to and from work without having to deal with gas prices OR parking. It's waaay cheaper and faster. You're exactly correct, as gas prices rise, America will continue to develope thier public transit like everywhere else. So there's 2 options. We can have people like you not worry about it and get really behind, or you can have people like me who DO worry about it and get things done. Because no matter what, our system is going to shift towards greener cars and more public transit, it's just how fast it's happening that's the issue.

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 2:59 PM. Reason : ..]

6/13/2008 2:51:10 PM

Quit worrying about what everyone else is driving you pretentious hippy. Gas prices will eventually change what everybody drives...the problem will sort itself out.

6/13/2008 3:02:14 PM

Get things done? What the fuck are you getting done besides spouting off on an internet board that's full of automotive enthusiasts?

Light rail is not a solution for a majority of suburban country. I don't like public transportation. Private transportation is a luxury that I have enjoyed since I was 16, and will continue to enjoy until the day I die. You are barking up the wrong tree in here, you long haired commy pinko. If you like other places so much, then you can go there.

6/13/2008 3:02:19 PM

Didn't GM just close 4 suv/truck plants? You better hang on to that suv. Even CEO Rick Wagoner said the "market shift to smaller vehicles is permanent."

Quote :

"You are barking up the wrong tree in here"

You're right i got REALLY bored at work and thought i'd have a little fun in the garage because i know the IQ drops about 30 points. I mean you guys have to resort to repetition because you can't think of anything better to say.

Quote :

"Get things done?"

Of course i'm getting things done. I've been involved in public transit/greenway developtment ever since i can remember. A bunch of the shit that gets done in Charlotte is directly related to stuff people i'm involved with do.

Quote :

"Light rail is not a solution for a majority of suburban country. "

Well i'm sad to inform you that as of May 23rd 2007 the world is more Urban than Rural. Which means public transit IS the future of transportation.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070525000642.htm

You guys are boring me now, i'm sure you can entertain yourselves.

6/13/2008 3:15:25 PM

Quote :

"He can't really afford it."

You went over his finances with him?

Quote :

"So what? Are you kidding me? I'm very glad you recognize the merit in southern city planning and infrastructure but jeez that comment is rediculous. That's the problem with many Americans, they drive something just because they can. There's absolutly NO reason to drive a v8 70 miles a day simply to commute when you can drive a much smaller car that gets much better gas milage, and doesn't pollute as much."

Simply because you can is the reason. It's a free country, he can do what he wants. I don't have any right to judge him for driving that car and you don't have any right to judge him for driving that car. It's his car, his money, and his choice. This situation wouldn't exist if there was better urban and intercity transit planning in our area, but that's how it's built now and it's going to take a while to shift from that. Some people will keep driving long distances in relatively inefficient vehicles because they can justify it in other ways.

Quote :

"I mean does ONE person in a business suit REALLY need to be driving around a 2 ton piece of mechanical disaster that gets 17mpg 70 miles a day?"

It probably gets worse gas mileage than that (about 13-15 average, 17 would be a good day on the highway), and if he feels the perceived need to drive such a vehicle he can do so. Remember: In America, we don't all get to control how people live their lives or get to make their decisions for them.

Quote :

"Ranting about portable engines and efficiency."

We have lots of money and we've had lots of oil. Efficiency wasn't a problem except for the odd 5 year period where we had an ugly price spike. In order for us to use oil more efficiently there needs to be more justification for the market to improve vehicle efficiency besides "it pollutes less". When we have had supply shortages or when it started to become cost prohibitive for some people to drive cars, auto manufacturers shifted their production a bit more towards the efficient side. There's also technologies that would let us make an ICE more efficient, to some extent, but those aren't all that cost effective. New technologies won't catch on if old technologies are cheaper and will work just as well.

Quote :

"That's rediculous. You rarely see any suvs in most other countries, and they get by fine right? Oh and compare the automobile accidents in America versus other countries. You're not using logic."

You like to argue without supporting details. European countries have had a heavy tax burden applied through petrol and diesel, which led to people driving smaller, more efficient cars. You know this. You also know here we have had cheap as fuck gasoline with a tax rate that hasn't really increased in a long while. This means it's nice and cheap for us to drive the bigger cars, and some people choose to do so. SUV's drive different and give you a better view of the road, and for some people that's enough (see some posts above, for example). Us having more accidents than other countries along with more SUV's is a correlation and not a causal relationship. Americans drive more miles than people in other countries because our cities are spread out more and we have a shit ton more territory. Again, our gasoline is cheaper. Simple statistics will show that since we drive a lot more, we're at a much greater risk of being involved in a car accident than somebody who drives a lot less.

Quote :

"You don't feel safe driving without a big car because everyone else drives big cars. Everyone else in the world people drives midsize cars so everyone feels safe in midsize cars. It's rediculous. It translates to: oh we spend way too much on gas because everyone else spends way too much on gas!!!"

And now I'm starting to see loose screws. After the marketing push by US manufacturers for people to get SUV's, a lot of people who were bad drivers in mid-size cars became bad drivers in larger cars. On the other issue, the fact that other people in other countries drive different cars than we do, it goes back to the status symbol thing. This is a very, very wealthy country. Most countries are not very wealthy countries. We can afford big ass gas guzzling SUV's and high-end sport sedans. Even the poor here have decent access to a selection of used larger or luxury vehicles, and they can afford the gas on them as well.

Quote :

"How can everyone else in the world get by without driving big cars (when they need to, they have them available) and yet americans insist on driving these massive cars because they want to feel "safe", and yet Americans are obese and get in more automobile crashes. How does that make sense? Your logic is complete opposite of the truth."

You are the sort of hippie that could run into a Jeffrey Dahmer type character one day, should the gods be forgiving. Other countries have excessive gasoline taxes, or they have a poor citizenry (relative to the USA). They drive smaller cars because they lack expendable income and/or readily available cheap gasoline. Their governments also intervene often enough through laws and taxation that driving anything besides a smaller car isn't really affordable unless you're fairly wealthy.

Quote :

"I mean seriously how many of you have traveled to nyc, london, paris, berlin or any large city with an excellent public transit system? You get back to the south and you realize how stupid everyone is for driving cars around a city and for communiting halfway across the county to go to work every day."

Amazing, you simply must get a blog that nobody reads and post these inane comments there. Nobody in the south is stupid for commuting to work when they live in a city as big as Raleigh or Durham. These cities are not like NYC, London, Paris, or any other large domestic or international city. Not only do the governments here lack the tax base that is available in those larger cities (which is essential for doing large public projects like mass transit systems), they encouraged sprawl development to increase their tax base and property values in the quickest, cheapest way possible. Raleigh is decades away from being big enough to start having enough real residential density and possible traffic to justify some of the traffic modernization that you would like to see.

You really need to get a grip on reality and simply see that it is not the fault of the people that live here that an unsustainable traffic system developed. Years of cheap oil, careful tax subsidies, and collusion of sorts between developers and city planners has allowed for the creation of very unsustainable levittown-like developments that have progressively gotten worse and worse in terms of traffic designs, sustainability considerations, and quality of life considerations (i.e. having huge homes on tiny lots or creating low-quality vinyl box establishments with 3 ft between each house). Boiling it down into a "LOL SOUTHERNERS ARE STUPID AND I'M AN ELITIST LOLOL" isn't really an effective way to call out the source of the problem or to make any suggestions for fixing it. For an example of where the problem lies, a very obvious one, simply look at the actions of the Mayor of Raleigh during the droughts that went on around here. He put a stop to residential watering and water usage. When things started to get serious he finally started asking industrial businesses (which are much larger water consumers) to cut back on wastage and to review their facilities and to make some changes so they'd use less water in the long run. As a final, final resort they were going to include a measure that would prevent property developers from flushing water lines to new homes out with water (which effectively would stop new property development). One of the biggest reasons for the drought in the first place was the unsustainable growth taking place in the area, and our mayor decided that was just about the last place he was going to look to stop development. People around here didn't just up and decide they wanted a job in the city and that they wanted to drive all the way out from bumfuck to go to work. Economic shifts in the area (both where the jobs are and where the jobs will be) require people who used to live and work in the country to find work in the city to be able to continue to live where they are now (and it's not as simple as moving, as most people would not give up a nice country home on 10 acres of land for a tiny overpriced condo in a new development in north raleigh). The way city planners have placed residential and commercial developments, a lot of people in Cary end up commuting to north of the beltline to go to work. Commercial and residential and industrial developments weren't all spread around equally to encourage a more sustainable commute and to discourage sprawl. They just built shit as quickly and as cheaply as possible.

Quit fucking shitting on the south and on our small to medium sized cities and the people that live here. Everybody here didn't decide to be an arrogant shitfuck and to build their homes and businesses all over the damn place just so they could have a long commute to work. I'd say corruption and collusion are more the source of our ills than anything else, and that is more the fault of politicians and businessmen that have controlled business and development in this area for years (and they still do, and they're still making a killing). If you want to bitch about what we're driving and how we're living, go bitch at them. They're the ones that sold the idea to the government and the masses in the first place.

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 3:17 PM. Reason : And with that, I'm out of here. You are spouting talking points without having done the research.]

6/13/2008 3:16:30 PM

^i'm confused. You don't exactly seem to disagree with me and yet you comment like i said something wrong. I never said i was directly blaming the people. I was simply blaming thier reasoning and lack of asking the question "could there be a better alternative?" You very intelligently described why what i said was the case but you didn't disagree with me. I wasn't saying "the people consciously did this", i was simply stating how it was, and then you stated how it came to be. I realize that is how the infrastructure of the south developed and i agree with what you say, i just want everyone else to understand that and determine for themselves if there's a better alternative.

Quote :

"Economic shifts in the area (both where the jobs are and where the jobs will be) require people who used to live and work in the country to find work in the city to be able to continue to live where they are now (and it's not as simple as moving, as most people would not give up a nice country home on 10 acres of land for a tiny overpriced condo in a new development in north raleigh). "

By 1910 the population of the US was more urban so i guess most people DID give up that life. There's plenty of people who would rather live in a city and have its benefits than living in the country and not having access to half what people in the city do.

Quote :

"Quit fucking shitting on the south and on our small to medium sized cities and the people that live here. "

My dad's from statesville, NC and i grew up in Charlotte. I don't dislike North Carolina. In fact i'm probably going to stay here after i graduate because i love the area, but that doesn't mean i can't try to shift it towards a more friendly transit system.

Quote :

"You are spouting talking points without having done the research.]"

Quote :

"You like to argue without supporting details."

What you said and what i said don't conflict. Again i was stating how it was and why i thought it was silly, and you were stating why it came to be. Just because i didn't go into the historical developtment of the south and the rest of the world doesn't mean i can't comment on how it is now. All of what you said is obvious and assumed and i was under the impression that was common knowledge to everyone. If i wanted a history lesson on how the south developed i would read a book. I thought i should give my opinion rather than spouting off obvious history. You really didn't seem to give an opinion at all and you just hid behind the facts. I was rather aggressively expressing my opinion so i could hear other opinions and not get a history lesson. I mean i should have responsed to that with a big "DUH".

Quote :

"Simply because you can is the reason. It's a free country, he can do what he wants. "

Quote :

"You really need to get a grip on reality and simply see that it is not the fault of the people that live here that an unsustainable traffic system developed. "

Again you're not forming an opinion, you're just trying to throw facts at me. First you tell me it's a free country and people should decide what is right, THEN you tell me i shouldn't complain to those same people because it's not under thier control. I agree the government/developers is a great place to start, but getting the public involved DOES start up the momentum. You treat it like the people have no say in the matter, and yet you say America is a free country and we have a right to choose what is good. You're contradicting yourself. If my friend has a right to drive his suv, then i also have a right to try to change people minds and move towards more efficient transit because as you said, it's a free country.

[Edited on June 13, 2008 at 4:02 PM. Reason : ..]

6/13/2008 3:50:57 PM

set'em up

6/13/2008 3:54:42 PM