http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/06/15/obama-goes-to-church-2/

Quote :

" There’s a reason why our families are just in disrepair, and some of it has to do with a tragic history, but we can’t keep on using that as an excuse.”...“The change we need is not just gonna come from government. It’s not just gonna come from a president. It’s gonna come from us. It’s gonna come from each and every one of us. We need families to raise our children. We need fathers to recognize that responsibility just doesn’t end at conception. That doesn’t just make you a father. What makes you a man is not the ability to have a child. Any fool can have a child. That doesn’t make you a father. It’s the courage to raise a child that makes you a father.”"

Maybe he's milking it, but it seems like he is a little pissed that his papa walked on out him. But if Obama, who grew up without his own father, can get this far and almost be president, does that mean fathers are actually overrated?

And what's all this about "change" not coming from the government? Is this yet another Obama flip flop? Does he now believe that change can come from places other than the government?

6/15/2008 11:46:38 PM

i disagree; no; so what?; no; why wouldnt it?

6/15/2008 11:54:47 PM

if he is bitter towards his father, then it adds even more quandaries to things

gives fuel to both sides

all sorts of social stereotype madness

in the end, it's a mass gang of hypocritical silliness

such as ZOMG HIS BLACK FATHER ABANDONED HIM meanwhile THIS KID CAME FROM A SINGLE PARENT HOME AND PERSEVERED

etc

[Edited on June 15, 2008 at 11:58 PM. Reason : +++]

6/15/2008 11:58:02 PM

Quote :

"Does he now believe that change can come from places other than the government?"

Quote :

"good thing old Sojourner escaped on her own instead of waiting for the government to take care of things for her"

TreeTwista10

and he's got damn right

there is no way the government was gonna give her what she needed to be a woman (never even mind th fact she was also black)

she needed to DEMAND those RIGHTS HERself

6/16/2008 12:05:39 AM

my thoughts are as follows:

1. having shitty or absent parents is no excuse for you to suck.
2. if you are a father (or any parent, for that matter), you are a despicable piece of shit if you aren't there for your children to the max extent that you can be.
3. the family law system in our country is a fucking disaster.

6/16/2008 12:33:38 AM

now let's break it down through the biological and selective factors

6/16/2008 12:42:29 AM

1. i might be awesome, but you might think i suck
2. amen
3. amen*

* just because the law system is stupid and favors women in family law does NOT mean that it evens out injustices found elsewhere

6/16/2008 12:43:46 AM

well, i guess you are correct on #1 (though I don't think you suck), but I think that most of us can agree to a large extent on who has his/her shit together and who sucks.

the difference is who holds the attitude that they can't help it because their parents were shitheads, and who holds the attitude of "Yeah, that sucks, and it definitely didn't help you, but you ultimately are responsible for yourself."

6/16/2008 12:59:29 AM

Having good parents isn't the only thing to help someone succeed but the odds of them going the wrong way are a hell of a lot higher with someone coming from a broken home. Its definitely a handicap. You are who you are but the people in the middle of good and bad can be swayed. This sway may come from a parent, mentor or it can come from television, drug dealer or gangbanging a friend.



*que nature vs nurture debate*

6/16/2008 1:20:26 AM

Of course it's a handicap. Anyone who argues otherwise is a complete moron. I'm just saying it's not an excuse.

6/16/2008 1:30:53 AM

Just an aside question, but is there anything at all someone can use as an excuse?

6/16/2008 1:37:08 AM

^^^ Exactly. Such as... my parents are divorced. I think I am far from sucking as a person. But at the same time I think I would have come out better if they had not gotten divorced.

^ rape?

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 1:41 AM. Reason : ]

6/16/2008 1:37:41 AM

how our parents raise us (if they even do) makes a very big impact on us. i'm thankful for the parents i have, were it not for their teaching i don't know where i'd be. at the same time i've made plenty of mistakes that i'm fully accountable for that i made in spite of knowing better. as for the quote from obama, i don't support him as a candidate but i can't see anything in it that i don't completely agree with.

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 1:54 AM. Reason : ]

6/16/2008 1:53:52 AM

I think that's a lot of what his appeal is. He's real with his audience and he's not afraid to touch some personal issues with Americans that no other candidate would go near.

6/16/2008 1:57:25 AM

Quote :

" ^ rape? "

Why?

Back in HS in AP English, I was the only male in the class, and we read a story about rape, and all the females (and the story itself) seemed to agree that rape wasn't an excuse to keep yourself down. That you should and could move on with your life.

6/16/2008 2:51:09 AM

I don't know, I've never been raped (knock on wood). But if something like that seriously fucked a person up and they were pretty useless I could understand. Not all cases mind you, but rape would be a legit excuse if you really were messed up, I think.

6/16/2008 4:41:14 AM

well you can always point out the obvious case, like Josef Fritzl

but i pretty much agree with duke on #1, i was just being a wiseass

6/16/2008 8:15:42 AM

Who the fuck cares??

6/16/2008 8:19:45 AM

Quote :

"Bill Clinton's father was William Jefferson Blythe Jr. He was born on the 27th of February 1918 and died of an automobile accident on the 17th of May 1946. Besides Bill Clinton he had two other children: a daughter Sharon Le Blythe and a son Henry Leon Ritzenthaler."

Dude, if you had a good dad growing up, you have absolutely no chance of being a prominent historical figure.

6/16/2008 9:10:40 AM

Quote :

"But if Obama, who grew up without his own father, can get this far and almost be president, does that mean fathers are actually overrated?"

That's about the dumbest question you could ask.

6/16/2008 9:38:22 AM

Quote :

"1. having shitty or absent parents is no excuse for you to suck. 2. if you are a father (or any parent, for that matter), you are a despicable piece of shit if you aren't there for your children to the max extent that you can be. 3. the family law system in our country is a fucking disaster."

hear hear.

6/16/2008 10:07:37 AM

Quote :

"I don't know, I've never been raped (knock on wood). But if something like that seriously fucked a person up and they were pretty useless I could understand. Not all cases mind you, but rape would be a legit excuse if you really were messed up, I think. "

How often does this actually happen tough?

And why can't someone having a bad/no father also make them useless?

6/16/2008 12:50:54 PM

I don't know man. I was just using it as an example. I'm sure there are some situations out there that I don't feel like thinking about right now that would legitimately make a person useless.

6/16/2008 12:52:34 PM

I get that, but it seems people throw around the phrase "well that's not a good enough excuse" so much, that is seems like nothing is actually a good enough excuse. I'm wondering what standards determine what's a good excuse.

Because you can pretty much find anyone that rose up from any situation, but if you look at the majority of humanity, it's pretty clear that most people (i would estimate 70%) aren't reaching their full potential, or don't feel they're reaching their full potential, and apparently they don't have a good excuse. So are so many people just born with the idea that they can't do what they want? Are more things good excuses that we realize?

In any case, I really wanted this thread to be more about Obama than just general philosophical ideas.

6/16/2008 12:59:31 PM

I actually agreed with Obama until he actually proposed MORE programs during his speech about being responsible with your own kids. He actually inserts tax payer money into a speech about personal responsibilities. What a joke.

"And by the way – it’s a responsibility that also extends to Washington. Because if fathers are doing their part; if they’re taking our responsibilities seriously to be there for their children, and set high expectations for them, and instill in them a sense of excellence and empathy, then our government should meet them halfway.

We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them. We should get rid of the financial penalties we impose on married couples right now, and start making sure that every dime of child support goes directly to helping children instead of some bureaucrat. We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and a larger Earned Income Tax Credit that can help them pay the bills. We should expand programs where registered nurses visit expectant and new mothers and help them learn how to care for themselves before the baby is born and what to do after – programs that have helped increase father involvement, women’s employment, and children’s readiness for school. We should help these new families care for their children by expanding maternity and paternity leave, and we should guarantee every worker more paid sick leave so they can stay home to take care of their child without losing their income."

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 3:44 PM. Reason : .]

6/16/2008 3:41:44 PM

Quote :

"start making sure that every dime of child support goes directly to helping children instead of some bureaucrat."

Oh, there's plenty of child support being wasted, but it isn't being done by bureaucrats. The government only collects a few bucks per month when they get involved (for their processing fee). I mean like $5/month or something--it's pretty much inconsequential.

the problem is in the formula for determining who pays who what and how much.

Quote :

"programs that have helped increase father involvement, women’s employment"

Well, the government (state much more so than federal) already does a spectacular job of hurting both of these things. Maybe instead of new programs, they could just stop fucking the dog with what they're currently doing.

[Edited on June 16, 2008 at 4:21 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

6/16/2008 4:19:52 PM

good point duke. With the govt handouts replacing the NEED for the father to provide you have seen an increase in the number of unwed mothers and single mothers on the system. The mothers no longer NEED the fathers for money.

Whats the old saying. IF you want less of something tax it. If you want more subsidize it. Thats exactly what happened here. IMO

6/16/2008 5:40:45 PM

i dont even get how they made child support a law...isnt that unconstitutional?

6/16/2008 5:44:31 PM

Quote :

"my thoughts are as follows: 1. having shitty or absent parents is no excuse for you to suck. 2. if you are a father (or any parent, for that matter), you are a despicable piece of shit if you aren't there for your children to the max extent that you can be. 3. the family law system in our country is a fucking disaster."

1) i agree
2) i agree, same for the mother though
3) probably agree

i wonder if obama will catch flak for this like cosby catches flak for all of the good shit he says

6/16/2008 7:27:47 PM