I have gotten into several arguments with people who just have their certs and those who just have computer science degrees.

Which is better to have? a bunch of certs or a degree?

6/17/2008 11:58:53 AM

experience

6/17/2008 11:59:30 AM

^ and common sense

6/17/2008 12:00:31 PM

^^
^

6/17/2008 12:11:39 PM

While I think it's impossible to state a clear cut rule- definitely depends on the individual. In the hiring process, I think you have to be more of a superstar to compensate for not having a degree than not having a cert. Once you're onboard, I don't think either are a huge deal.

6/17/2008 12:52:55 PM

^

6/17/2008 1:00:14 PM

Having a degree to me seems like it proves you have the ability to learn a lot of diverse topics in a rather short amount of time.

I'd rather hire somebody that can write/reason/do math than someone who ONLY has the skills required to pass a few tests for certs

Not saying either is easy.. but I think someone with a degree can get the certs, not always the other way around.

6/17/2008 1:15:06 PM

you argue about some trivial shit.

6/17/2008 1:25:27 PM

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^

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6/17/2008 1:31:02 PM

What do you want to do? A lot of you bigger companies will pretty much demand people coming in to have a degree for management, and if you want to do any sort of higher research you might even have to have a master or PhD.

6/18/2008 11:46:52 AM

i know people who have no degree but have certs and make great $texas. and vice versa.


I think it all depends on the person, the company you are wanting to work for.

6/18/2008 12:03:27 PM

Aren't ppl w/ certs the ppl who bring me new mice and fix my email at work?

6/18/2008 1:26:21 PM

Plenty of people do fine without a college degree or certifications. Plenty of people do fine with just certifications...But, you have to consider that there are a lot of companies that will not hire you without a degree. HR will see your resume and not even forward it to the hiring manager. Maybe you don't want to work for any of those companies, or maybe you are good at networking and can find somebody to pull some strings for you; but it is something to consider.

6/18/2008 1:43:52 PM

^


like he said, if the minimum job requirements ask for a certificate or a degree, you'd BETTER have one or the hiring manager will never even see your resume as it will be shitcanned before it leaves HR. i can't see anyways around it other than to "know" somebody. i believe they are weeded out twice before any are sent to NCSU hiring managers. "who doesn't meet the minimums" & "who are the best qualified of those remaining."

6/19/2008 10:13:40 AM

Question: Right now I have a bachelors degree in bullshit, along with a minor in computer programming. Im considering going to get my A+ certification so I can get the hell out of the job Im currently in (probably get others after that). What I want to know is, is there enough need for this certification in this area that, assuming I dont completely blow an interview (very likely), getting a job in the field shouldnt be too difficult? Ive never been that good with the whole interview process, so job hunting isnt exactly something Im looking forward to.

9/3/2008 10:59:48 AM

There are differen't types of certs, the ones that matter most requires X years of experience (have to submit an affidavit, can be validated with the company) in addition to passing an exam.

Certs without experience attached to your resume is usually meaningless to hiring managers.

There is a difference between an understanding of the BOK (Body of Knowledge) versus application of the BOK. The real value is the experience in applying the BOK regardless of what type of cert (Cisco, ASQ Six Sigma, PMI, PRINCE2, etc).

For example:
PMP is highly valued in Project Management, it's a cert that has the best of both worlds: exam on the PMBOK (Project Mgmt Body of Knowledge) and requirement on # of hours of experience leading projects (emphasis on "leading").

9/3/2008 4:30:20 PM

I really don't see how A+ would get you into anything better than Geek Squad or a tech at Intrex. If you're going to do it you might as well focus on something that an employer might actually scan for in your resume.

9/3/2008 4:52:19 PM

10 pages.

With the amount of people today that have a degree and the surplus of those unemployed, youd better have a degree.

Certs really all depend on where you are going to work. For example would a CCNA help me at Nortel? Probably not, but my degree damn sure will.

Its all about shades of grey, but most importantly a track record on your resume demonstrating you have been consistently successful.

my .02

9/3/2008 4:53:55 PM

^ It's good that ENDContra does have a degree (in bullshit), so he has that going for him. I have one good friend at Cisco who got in with a Civil Engineering degree, some experience, and a CCNA. It's not like Civil Engineering is doing a lot for his technical skills, but it showed that he was just as capable of learning as anyone else there.

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 9:45 PM. Reason : l]

9/3/2008 9:25:10 PM

I thought of this thread the other day- kind of reiterating what I said before but...

Our sharpest network architect at my last job dropped out of hs, no college degree. Similarly, our architect at my current employer doesn't have a college degree.

At least in my experience- knowledge, experience, and charisma are the key. Certs and degrees are one way to show that at some point, you had a certain level of knowledge on a topic, but they should be given no weight unless reinforced with constant hands-on experience and solid current knowledge. Without those two things, I think a cert/deg shows a certain level of commitment to personal betterment/studies/drive, but little else.

I'll sound like an snob saying this, but if I had a dollar for every dumb thing some CCIEs tell me in interviews, I wouldn't have to work another day in my life.

9/3/2008 10:09:25 PM

^ not at all.

I deal with retarded customers with CCIEs every day. Sometimes, it seems that all it gives them is a notch higher level of arrogance.

9/3/2008 10:16:58 PM

weird, I was pondering this same age old argument earlier this week. I haven't been in school in ages and still don't have my BA or any certifications so I've never really put out my resume for any tech related job. I finally decided I was tired of working some dead end 8.5/hr BS job, said fuck it and applied for entry level tech spot having around 5 years experience at a couple different local ISPs. I actually got a call for an interview which kind of gave me hope for not being a total fuckup for the rest of eternity.

Granted it's probably your most basic repair/support/help desk nonsense, but it beats the shit out of what i'm doing now and hopefully if all goes well can add to my resume while I make the decision in going back to school, messing with certifications, or doing neither.

I am a little worried though that I won't know/remember enough during the interview though :/

9/3/2008 10:44:27 PM

Quote :

"cdubya All American 2882 Posts user info edit post I'll sound like an snob saying this, but if I had a dollar for every dumb thing some CCIEs tell me in interviews, I wouldn't have to work another day in my life. 9/3/2008 10:09:25 PM BobbyDigital Diet Cokehead 28228 Posts user info edit post ^ not at all. I deal with retarded customers with CCIEs every day. Sometimes, it seems that all it gives them is a notch higher level of arrogance. "

Add my name to that list of enduring stupid shit CCIE's have said/done. Although I only have a CCNA I spent 3 years working for Cisco in the TAC (for a group I have no intention of ever working for again). Ive seen some really stupid shit by well qualified people. However what kills me is the stupid shit could have been prevented if someone would have slowed down, applied some foresight with a little common sense, and used a well structured thought patter to what the hell they were doing.

9/3/2008 10:53:55 PM

Honestly, considering what Im doing now, even the low end jobs would be fine with me, as long as Im not taking a huge paycut, and Im not exactly making bank now anyhow. My problem is that outside of having a minor in computer programming, I have jackshit thats actually related to the field. I look at the guys in the IT department at my current company, and I feel like I can do that job at least as good as they can, most likely better. I just dont have anything to put on paper to prove it.

9/4/2008 9:38:18 AM

A+ isnt really worth much, at least from what i have seen.

In the microsoft envinronemnt, the mcsa/mcse are okay (but they are now being replaced with new things)

It pay strucutre as far as i can figure out


a+/desktop support max out at about 35 to 40k
MCSE/Computer administratoin you can probably make it to 70k or a little more

after this you need to either specalize or go into managment

managment track you need to look into managment certs basically pay can be really really high
PMP, CISSP (waiting on my results)
They dont tell you how to do anythign per say, no process, but they give you a general overview of how things should be done in an environment.

Or you can go the the techie side.

These are your top level network people, domain admins on huge networks, people who are in charge of large corporate systems

You will need the actually do certs here, most of them will have application labs to show that you can actually proform a specific duty/function.

Im currently at my point in my career where im kinda trying to figure out which way to go as far as managment track or techie track.

9/4/2008 10:00:17 AM

PMP wont be in a traditional management role. Thats a huge base of skill set to waste on managing subordinates. CISSP will get you involved in the policy making and politics of the higher-ups but that doesnt insinuate management either.

Project management is an actual skill set and career role, it doesnt necessarily mean that you manage people (subordinates), you just collaborate with a bunch of people to achieve an end result. I dont really know how to accurately explain or communicate the difference in my point, so bear with me here.

However this brings up a good discussion topic. Just what does it take to move in to management. I would think that management is usually qualified by a specific set of degrees (BS/BA in Business, or other degree with "Management" in the title), but more typically a Masters degree. Else youll just have someone thoroughly experienced - someone who worked for 5-7 years, maybe 10 in a group and got promoted to management.

Thoughts?

[Edited on September 4, 2008 at 1:04 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2008 1:01:53 PM

Quote :

"Just what does it take to move in to management."

I think it depends on what type of management you're talking about. If you're talking about operations management, certs and degrees are going to be more important and relevant. If you're talking about personnel management, experience will generally trump education.

As you move higher up the chain, you'll find fewer folks without advanced/professional degrees although there will always be some exceptions.

9/4/2008 1:15:08 PM

I was mainly referring to more on the lines of operations management ie not doing the networking but telling people that we need to implement full disk encryption.

Not the general global managment type ceo

9/4/2008 3:34:22 PM

its just that most things I"m seeing on monster are more all about certs than they are degrees.

also, except for the dept manager, I'm the only one with a degree. My team lead has no degree, but certs; and its pretty much the same with a majority of my colleagues.

9/4/2008 7:44:31 PM

second interview tomorrow

9/4/2008 7:58:19 PM