... in the stupidest way possible:

Quote :

"APEX, N.C. -- The State Board of Education says a budget shortfall left them without enough money for teacher bonuses this year. The bonuses, which reward teachers for their students' good performance on state exams, can net as much as $1,500."

Cutting performance-based teacher bonuses; that's the ticket.

8/8/2008 10:12:21 AM

wow. how idiotic.
what's the link on that, Boone?

8/8/2008 10:15:02 AM

out-of-touch

thats what our politicians are

8/8/2008 10:18:43 AM

Oh, right:

http://news14.com/Default.aspx?ArID=598087

Looks like it was finalized. 33% cut.


To make matters stupider, I think they're applying this to the bonuses attached to last year's performance. This money was already promised to us. Dicks.

8/8/2008 10:23:05 AM

its from a week old N&O story...why he didnt quote the whole thing i dont know

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1162554.html

Quote :

"Teachers to get smaller bonuses Cuts mean the state won't be paying the $1,500 maximum that it has before. T. Keung Hui, Staff WriterComment on this story RALEIGH - Thousands of North Carolina public schoolteachers will get smaller checks this year because of cuts to the state's bonus program. State education officials say they can't give the maximum bonus of $1,500 a teacher that's meant as a reward for the performance of their students on state exams. The change means teachers will likely see a few hundred dollars less in their checks. The severity of the cuts will be announced Thursday by the State Board of Education when teachers find out whether they're eligible for the bonuses this year. Teachers aren't happy. "We're expected to do more and more every year but we're not being compensated for it," said Amy Constant, a fifth-grade teacher at Fox Road Elementary School in North Raleigh. "It would be nice if we got recognized for this with full bonuses." Under the state's ABCs of Public Education testing and accountability program, all the teachers at a school can receive a bonus if the school's students meet expectations on state exams. Last year, 72 percent of the state's public schools met standards, making teachers eligible for the bonus. Although state law sets a $1,500 ceiling on each bonus and doesn't specify a minimum, the SBOE has never given less than the maximum amount. Even when the General Assembly has provided less money than needed, state education officials have pulled the money from other parts of the budget to pay the full bonuses. State education officials had warned this year that $107 million might be needed for bonuses. But in the state budget adopted last month, the General Assembly ordered the SBOE to spend no more than $94.3 million in bonuses, the average amount given over the past 11 years. "It was just a tight year," said state Senate Majority Leader Tony Rand, a Fayetteville Democrat. "I'm sorry it's not 100 percent, but I'm glad that we were able to give them 90 percent." The problem now, state educators say, is that they think they would need even more than $107 million to pay the maximum bonus amount. This means the state cap will result in even larger bonus cuts for teachers. Sheri Strickland, president of the N.C. Association of Educators, the largest group representing the state's teachers, said the bonus cut is particularly bad since teachers will get a smaller raise than Gov . Mike Easley had recommended. Teachers will get an average state raise of 3 percent. "It's a difficult pill to swallow when they've already done the work to receive the bonus money," Strickland said. The bonus cut wasn't a source of disappointment for Terry Stoops, an education policy analyst for the John Locke Foundation, a Raleigh think tank that has been critical of the ABCs program. He argues that the bonuses have "become an entitlement" in the minds of teachers. "The bonuses are too easy to get," Stoops said. "You could be the worst teacher at a good school and still get the bonus." keung.hui@newsobserver.com or (919) 829-4534"

8/8/2008 10:24:05 AM

Funny how they were able to come up with the money to send the Easleys on a trip to Italy.

But not to worry...the NC Education Lottery will fix this.

8/8/2008 10:26:41 AM

Quote :

"It's a difficult pill to swallow when they've already done the work to receive the bonus money"

Yeah, it's last year's money that we'll be getting this month. Jerks.

Quote :

"He argues that the bonuses have "become an entitlement" in the minds of teachers. "The bonuses are too easy to get," Stoops said. "You could be the worst teacher at a good school and still get the bonus.""

That's somewhat true. More than half the teachers in any given school doesn't even teach state exams, though. It wouldn't exactly be fair if only teachers teaching EOCs that year qualified for bonus money.

8/8/2008 10:34:04 AM

Meh. I kinda thought that it was always a dumb idea to give merit based pay to teachers based on students eoy test results.

If I were a teacher I'd make sure all the dumb kids were in someone elses' class.

8/8/2008 11:35:23 AM

This shit pisses me off so bad. My wife is a teacher and she gets paid peanuts and is treated like crap to boot. Of all the damn things they could cut, why cut money to an already very underpaid teacher profession?

[Edited on August 8, 2008 at 11:43 AM. Reason : if not the bonus then raise the shit salaries!]

8/8/2008 11:41:59 AM

Let them go ahead and do this. In fact, let them cut teachers' pay while increasing the work load as much as they want. Then when nobody wants to enter the profession and NC's education goes from shit to non-existent, maybe things will get so bad that the politicians will have no choice but to do something sensible.

Or not, maybe they'll dig us all into an even deeper grave. But it'll give us more ammunition to use against them.

8/8/2008 5:01:00 PM

Why dont we abolish Alcohol Law Enforcement and use the savings to pay the teacher bonuses.

8/9/2008 5:51:04 PM

But does ALE lose money? I wonder if it is a net gain, with all the fines etc.

8/9/2008 6:45:51 PM

nationally, the problem with low teacher-pay is largely due to the union douche-bags who dont allow school systems to pay teachers based on performance but instead pay on seniority.

how is the teacher's union in NC? it is influential?

8/9/2008 7:09:36 PM

yeah, let's throw more money at this clearly great system of government we have going here...

8/9/2008 8:41:07 PM

Quote :

""It would be disappointing, but would it change what we do day to day? Not at all," Marie Jones, a teacher at Olive Chapel Elementary in Apex, said. "We don't do it for the bonus. There's been years I haven't gotten the bonus and obviously I come back every year. We're here for the kids. We're here to teach because it's what we love to do.""

uh, speak for your damn self you got damned ho.

8/9/2008 9:35:08 PM

Quote :

"She said the bonuses are typically the furthest thing from teachers' minds. "You're just worried about getting those kids where they need to be at the end of the year," Jones said."

what the fuck???

8/9/2008 9:36:13 PM

Quote :

"how is the teacher's union in NC? it is influential?"

It's illegal. So no... not very influential at all. We have an interest group that's somewhat influential, I guess?

Quote :

"We're here for the kids. We're here to teach because it's what we love to do."

This is totally true for most teachers, and the state is taking advantage of this benevolence.

They wonder why most teachers move on after three years. 3/4 of the competent ones realize they can move on for double the pay, leaving 1/4 of the competent teachers and 100% of the incompetent teachers.

8/9/2008 10:49:36 PM

Fuck teacher bonuses we gotta keep the Raleigh ALE fully funded in order to catch those underage drinkers who menace society, also pay for Mike Easley and his bitch to roll around europe in a Mercedes-Benz.

8/10/2008 3:08:57 PM

Hi All!
Bev Perdue here.

You know that nasty Mr. McHory is asking PACs to give him money! I'm gonna ask my Teacher Union friends to come up with a TV ad pointing that out to voters.

I am going to work hard to get teachers more money, even if I have to take it away from other state workers. We can get more of them easy anyway.

Everyone knows that our kids are stupid because teachers aren't paid enough, and I'm gonna change that when I get elected as your governess.

Every child deserves an expensive education...and I mean to give it to them!

Kiss Kiss.. and Vote Bev!

[Edited on August 10, 2008 at 11:00 PM. Reason : P.S. It took me awhile, but I finally found this Black person in the crowd. ]

8/10/2008 10:59:06 PM

What a great idea. Not like education is important or anything

8/10/2008 11:40:03 PM

^^ you are an idiot

8/11/2008 1:11:39 AM

sick burn!!!

8/11/2008 1:15:25 AM

Quote :

"Quote : "We're here for the kids. We're here to teach because it's what we love to do." This is totally true for most teachers, and the state is taking advantage of this benevolence. "

I call bullshit on this. Spend 15 minutes with a group of teachers at a party and all they end up doing is trashing their students and talking about money. They exhibit no greater "benevolence" than social workers and make twice as much (not to mention social workers don't get the summer off). Hell, a good friend of mine has only been teaching 2 years and already makes $46,000. Not exactly scrapin' the bottom of the barrel.

I think it is retarded that teacher pay automatically scales up with longevity. The rest of the state employees have to earn a higher position to get those raises. Hell, we don't even get automatic bonuses for higher education. My mother works with 2 women who have PhD's and still make less than $30,000 a year (BTW, the create the end of year tests so they are "for the children" too). I don't understand why teachers can't have the same hiring and promotion methods as general state employees have to work with. It doesn't matter if you have been doing a job for 15 years, if you are sub-par to mediocre then you shouldn't get escalated pay without earning a promotion.

Also, given that the average compensation for NC teachers is pretty high (a hair under $52,000 last I saw it on here) and starting salaries are pretty low then cleraly the problem is with scaling pay and how raises are handled. Stop giving percentage raises every year and give a greater portion in flat rate increases or at least alternate percentage and flat increase.

8/11/2008 1:44:51 AM

^ i know what u mean about talking shit about students, however, i have trouble believing people choose to teach for the money.

Quote :

"Hell, a good friend of mine has only been teaching 2 years and already makes $46,000."

yeah b.c either he has his master's or is a coach. My mom has been teaching since the 70's and after 29 years makes a little more than $60,000. Even so she is one of the top 50 employees of the char-mecklenburg school system (they put out a list in the Charlotte observer every year ranking gov't employees in various fields). In the private sector you would have to be doing a piss poor job or in the wrong industry if you had a master's degree and were making under 6 figures by the time your are 50.

8/11/2008 2:16:10 AM

Quote :

"^ i know what u mean about talking shit about students, however, i have trouble believing people choose to teach for the money."

I'm not saying they are in it for the money... I'm just saying teachers aren't the altruistic and righteous do-gooders they like to make them out to be.

Quote :

"yeah b.c either he has his master's or is a coach. My mom has been teaching since the 70's and after 29 years makes a little more than $60,000. Even so she is one of the top 50 employees of the char-mecklenburg school system (they put out a list in the Charlotte observer every year ranking gov't employees in various fields). In the private sector you would have to be doing a piss poor job or in the wrong industry if you had a master's degree and were making under 6 figures by the time your are 50."

Yes, she has a masters but she even admits she isn't very bright and thought the whole process was easy. No need to bring private sector into it. Look at the example I gave above of a state employee (not a teacher) who has a PhD and earns less than $30,000 a year and she is also in her 50's. I'm not sure what that Top 50 of CMS list was but using the database from the Charlotte Observer there are 91 people in the CMS that make over $100,000. I know tons of people with a Master's or PhD that are 50 (or close) and make less than 6 figures. These include technical positions like Specialist Programmers, Network Administrator, and IT Manager. State employees (that work a full 12 months each year) serve the public too and get shafted every year so that politicians can look good come election time because they are "for the children."

That CMS database can be searched here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/data/story/94557.html
Also, not sure if these take into account any bonuses, extra work/pay, and such or if it is just base salary.

I don't hate teachers. I don't think teachers should be paid poorly. I do think the method used for determining teacher compensation needs a dramatic overhaul. Make them earn their salary increases instead of simply graduating into them. If a teacher with 5 years of experience is doing a better job than a 20 year teacher, promote the 5 year ahead of the 20. It happens for the rest of state employees so I don't see why it can't work for teachers. As a software developer its not like we have any clear metrics for performance evaluation either. We are limited by client demands, resource availability, and it sure seems like I deal with a bunch of snot-nosed 10 year olds all day too.

Does anyone know why the flat salary raises are not done more? I make a good living and benefit more from the % but I know it only widens the income gap.

8/11/2008 3:41:30 AM

Quote :

"I call bullshit on this. Spend 15 minutes with a group of teachers at a party and all they end up doing is trashing their students and talking about money. They exhibit no greater "benevolence" than social workers and make twice as much (not to mention social workers don't get the summer off)."

Teachers love to complain. That doesn't mean they're not being altruistic.

Quote :

"Hell, a good friend of mine has only been teaching 2 years and already makes $46,000. Not exactly scrapin' the bottom of the barrel."

Yeeeaahh. That person is either teaching in another state or is full of crap

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2008-09schedules.pdf

A teacher with a master's doesn't make $46k until their 15th year.

Quote :

"2 women who have PhD's and still make less than $30,000 a year (BTW, the create the end of year tests so they are "for the children" too)"

While I don't know the the details behind these ladies, I seriously doubt anyone's underpaid for what they do in the state exam office. They create a 50-100 question test, once a year, by committee, and they source the actual questions from volunteer teachers.

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 8:03 AM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 7:59:39 AM

Fuck teachers. I don't see why they should be treated any different than other state employees. I'm a damn college educated state employee who also works in classrooms, but they get a lot of perks that we lowly classified employees do not. I see how most of them are doing, which is quite well. Go look in the parking lot and see what they drive and then tell me they are hurting.

8/11/2008 8:14:35 AM

Quote :

"I don't see why they should be treated any different than other state employees."

I don't see why we should get paid more than, say... police officers. I do see why we should get paid more than classified school employees.

Quote :

"I'm a damn college educated state employee who also works in classrooms, but they get a lot of perks that we lowly classified employees do not"

But you (collectively speaking; I don't know you, personally) don't have anywhere near the responsibility teachers do. By definition (and job title), you're usually assistants. Furious parents don't demand to see their child's teacher's assistant.

Quote :

"Go look in the parking lot and see what they drive and then tell me they are hurting."

Uh, '99 Civic hatch?

YOU SEE ME ROLLIN'

8/11/2008 8:40:41 AM

Yes, in an era where credit and massive debt is king, what someone drives is certainly a clear indicator of their wealth and income level



....


or, maybe you were being sarcastic?

8/11/2008 8:41:47 AM

teachers have to be the largest collection of whiners in the world.

Get ready for more cuts next year losers.

8/11/2008 10:28:00 AM

sour grapes, cog

8/11/2008 2:31:42 PM

part of the reason teachers have seen so many salaries increase as of late is b.c of capatilistic reasons. At least when i was in school years ago, schools struggled to fill all of their slots

8/11/2008 4:24:24 PM

^ If teachers' salaries were truly "capatilistic" (sic), they would be paid based on demand for their positions.



[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 4:31 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 4:30:20 PM

well currently their is a "supply" shortfall with a demand increasing as the population grows. Of all the problems with our gov't and gross wasteful spending, teacher salaries is probably on the ABSOLUTE BOTTOM of my concerns.

8/11/2008 4:35:43 PM

No sorry Boone, I'm not a damn assistant. And your right the parents don't ask to speak to me, but when the whole computer and phone system is down, the teachers and everybody else come looking for me. So while I'm not responsible for the kids, my job has a lot of responsibility as well.

I'm not begruding teachers and saying they don't do shit. I'm not bitching about them in that way. Just saying that they don't somehow deserve to be put on a higher pedestal than somebody else with similiar education. Sure if your talking about a custodian, cafeteria people, or a secretary, I understand. But more of the classified jobs require more education these days.

8/11/2008 8:42:19 PM

The school IT position is way underpaid. For one person to manage a network of computers operated mostly by teenagers and 50-year-old women is mind-boggling. Hats off to you.

8/11/2008 9:27:24 PM

Quote :

"I don't understand why teachers can't have the same hiring and promotion methods as general state employees have to work with. It doesn't matter if you have been doing a job for 15 years, if you are sub-par to mediocre then you shouldn't get escalated pay without earning a promotion."

Unions maybe? Don't know if they have those in NC

8/11/2008 9:40:50 PM

Quote :

"Yeeeaahh. That person is either teaching in another state or is full of crap http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2008-09schedules.pdf A teacher with a master's doesn't make $46k until their 15th year."

Just going by what she told me. Salary schedule does not include the county supplemental bonus, any extra duties she has, and bonuses.

Quote :

"While I don't know the the details behind these ladies, I seriously doubt anyone's underpaid for what they do in the state exam office. They create a 50-100 question test, once a year, by committee, and they source the actual questions from volunteer teachers."

You really don't know what you are talking about here. Your description is like me saying all teachers do is work according to predesignated lesson plans and print worksheets then have student teachers and lab techs grade the papers all while only working 8am-3pm for just 8 months a year. You know damn well it is not that simple. My mother is a copyright editor working in this field so I have a pretty good grasp on what is done and the amount of work it is from her first hand accounts. Of course if we can dismiss the work of others as insignificant with ill-formed sweeping generalizations then I guess you probably agree that teachers are overpaid for the little work they have to put in.

Quote :

"Quote: "Go look in the parking lot and see what they drive and then tell me they are hurting." Uh, '99 Civic hatch? YOU SEE ME ROLLIN'"

The 4 neighbors of mine that are teachers drive BMW, Accord, BMW, and Volvo. All live in homes priced from $250,000-$300,000. Their husbands/wives are teacher, teacher, a fledgling meteorology professor, and a guy who sells bucket. Clearly, they are doing just fine. All 4 households seem to be doing a little better than us, a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine and a Software developer... I'm not losing any sleep over teachers not getting their bonus this year.

Quote :

"The school IT position is way underpaid. For one person to manage a network of computers operated mostly by teenagers and 50-year-old women is mind-boggling. Hats off to you."

And teachers simply "Shhh!" those same teenagers all day while mindlessly reciting a lesson plan that was derived a decade ago and spend the rest of the day gossiping about all those 50-year-old women.

Boone, what do you think about a flat increase in teacher salary? (Like give everyone a flat $2,500 increase instead of a 5% increase, or whatever the equivalent budget amount would be) Seems like it would do well to better solve the problems of low starting teacher pay. Also, what problem is there with have to apply for a promotion instead of simply tenure elevating your salary? Seems like it serves to reward teachers who put in the effort instead of encouraging a cruising mentality (my high school anatomy teacher comes to mind).

Quote :

"Unions maybe? Don't know if they have those in NC"

No unions in NC. Teachers don't have one and state employees don't have one so no reason the two can't use the same hiring practice. I suspect the reason no one wants to implement it is because veteran teachers have the most voice and there is no way they would implement something that only limits their income potential. (Of course I'm sure they are only thinking of the children )

8/12/2008 1:21:29 AM

Quote :

"The 4 neighbors of mine that are teachers drive BMW, Accord, BMW, and Volvo. All live in homes priced from $250,000-$300,000. Their husbands/wives are teacher, teacher, a fledgling meteorology professor, and a guy who sells bucket. Clearly, they are doing just fine. All 4 households seem to be doing a little better than us, a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine and a Software developer... I'm not losing any sleep over teachers not getting their bonus this year."

Wow, awesome anecdotes. All teachers must be doing extremely well! How long have they been teaching? Are the cars paid off? Did they roll equity in from a previous home? Did they get help from parents?

Quote :

"Clearly, they are doing just fine."

Clearly!

Lets be honest. You don't know shit.

8/12/2008 10:25:27 AM

Considering the income shortfalls this year, the teachers are lucky they even got anything. Valuable programs took budgetary cuts this year and teachers are complaining that they didn't get as big of a bonus as they were expecting.

Sure, the pay may not be as much as in some neighboring states (Georgia), but the benefits package offered by the State is top notch. Also, in many counties in the State of North Carolina, teachers are some of the highest paid people. the NCEA and teachers in general cry more than any other group.

These teachers should take what they got and be grateful for it; because they could have ended up like many more individuals out there who didn't get nearly as much, which was also promised to them.

8/12/2008 10:39:39 AM

I think our education system needs an overhaul in regards to teacher pay. In general, there simply isnt a high enough financial incentive to attract the best and brightest to the profession...you have to make teacher's pay high enough to make the supply bigger than the demand for teachers so we can hire only the best instead of everyone simply smart enough to graduate from college.

Better teachers = better schools = better students = better USA

[Edited on August 12, 2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

8/12/2008 10:50:12 AM

If we want that, then we will have to go to merit based pay.

8/12/2008 10:56:36 AM

Quote :

"In general, there simply isnt a high enough financial incentive to attract the best and brightest to the profession"

Then why do private schools, which pay teachers less than public schools, have no trouble attracting teachers?

Quote :

"you have to make teacher's pay high enough to make the supply bigger than the demand for teachers"

If you want a larger supply of teachers, make it easier to get certified or do lateral entry.

You have to jump through a lot of hoops if you want to teach in public school, which deters lots of people from teaching, lowering the supply of teachers. Lower the supply of teachers and you have to pay them more. Good strategy on the part of current teachers and those who come up with the requirements for teaching entry.

[Edited on August 12, 2008 at 11:01 AM. Reason : .]

8/12/2008 10:58:48 AM

Quote :

"Then why do private schools, which pay teachers less than public schools, have no trouble attracting teachers?"

Better kids. More freedom with curriculum. Smaller class sizes. Etc.

Quote :

"Good strategy on the part of current teachers and those who come up with the requirements for teaching entry."

.

Yes, teaching is such a lucrative cottage industry. Those guys were so smart to set that up

8/12/2008 11:15:22 AM

Quote :

"Better kids. More freedom with curriculum. Smaller class sizes. Etc."

Maybe the public schools should imitate successful parts of private schools to attract better teachers.

I wouldn't say private schools necessarily have better kids. My brother goes to one and his classmates are all hellions.

8/12/2008 11:49:24 AM

Yes, because 1 anecdote a rule makes!

8/12/2008 11:55:51 AM

But private schools can kick a fucking kid out. They lose that $$ from the kid, but its not nearly as hard for them to rid themselves of an unruly pupil. It is damn near impossible to permanently remove a student from a public school unless they commit a crime.

8/12/2008 10:45:42 PM

Quote :

"The 4 neighbors of mine that are teachers drive BMW, Accord, BMW, and Volvo. All live in homes priced from $250,000-$300,000. Their husbands/wives are teacher, teacher, a fledgling meteorology professor, and a guy who sells bucket."

Perhaps the teachers who are statistical majority of women have husbands in higher paid fields or parents.

Nonetheless i can not believe we are seriously debating that teachers are "overpaid".

8/12/2008 11:07:35 PM

anyone mentioned the crazy amount of time off that teachers get??

8/13/2008 12:26:28 AM

Quote :

"Wow, awesome anecdotes. All teachers must be doing extremely well! How long have they been teaching? Are the cars paid off? Did they roll equity in from a previous home? Did they get help from parents?"

Never said anything about it applying to everyone. My point was that in the limited sample I come across there is clearly not a problem with income. The 5 teachers in questions are 29-35. They were all teachers straight out of college. We are all first-time home owners and come from middle class backgrounds.

Quote :

"Lets be honest. You don't know shit."

Let's be honest. You know teachers are more than adequately compensated for the job they do.

Quote :

"Perhaps the teachers who are statistical majority of women have husbands in higher paid fields or parents. "

I think you missed where I said the "other" in each couple was "teacher, teacher, a fledgling meteorology professor, and a guy who sells bucket trucks"... not exactly upper management. They come from very modest families.

Quote :

"Nonetheless i can not believe we are seriously debating that teachers are "overpaid"."

This wasn't about labeling teachers as overpaid. I think they are already fairly compensated for the job they do. My problem is with the way salary increases and promotions are handled. Teachers should not get salary increases (other than cost of living that the rest of state employees get) simply because they have been working for longer. Us programmers have to earn higher positions and often see someone with less time on the job promoted because... *drumroll* THEY WORK HARD AND ARE GOOD AT IT! If you want to show that you appreciate good teaching then you have to stop focusing on tenure and focus on performance. Most jobs don't have easily measured performance metrics but managers still find a way to evaluate and promote. It will be much easier to attract and keep good teachers if you show that they will be taken care of instead of the current system that encourages getting through it and coasting. Also, I do think more education should be privatized but that is another topic.

Quote :

"anyone mentioned the crazy amount of time off that teachers get??"

Shhhh! You aren't aloud to talk about that... cause they, like, work real hard... and are in it for the children.

8/13/2008 1:58:18 AM