Except for cars like prius, and others that literally have waiting lists of people itching to pay full retail, is it, or is it not a valid assumption that
1) the dealership does have room to negotiate on the price
2) only a fool pays the sticker price?

8/26/2008 9:16:31 PM

1) yes
2) yes

8/26/2008 9:17:58 PM

K

That's what I thought

8/26/2008 9:18:39 PM

1) yes
2) yes

8/26/2008 9:18:42 PM

haha, number 2 is funny as shit

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:19 PM. Reason : best time to buy a car is dec 26 to dec 30]

8/26/2008 9:18:46 PM

to elaborate further, one of my really good friends is a car salesman. basically, he can negotiate down to a certain margin that is allowed by the dealership. in other words, it is the least ammount of profit the dealership will take and still let the car go. however, how much the salesman negotiates depends on his situation. the more they come off the sticker price, the less commission they get. also, the farther off his quota he is, the more likely he is to give you a better deal.

8/26/2008 9:21:14 PM

also, get free oil changes etc in the deal

8/26/2008 9:22:07 PM

I've had multiple people show me this video on car buying.

8/26/2008 9:24:57 PM

DJ, Salesmen refused to budge on ANYTHING.

AT ALL.

2009 Pontiac vibe for 19575 with AC, automatic, moonroof, the +1 tires, and monsoon sound system.

I'll have a more comprehensive writeup soon, but basically the dealership mgr on duty was an ass.

I'll share here, because I'm pretty certain I was not at all a bitch, but their behavior ...

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:25 PM. Reason : lkj]

8/26/2008 9:25:46 PM

this thread makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall yet i cant stop posting in it

8/26/2008 9:26:58 PM

read the salesmen thread in the garage or jump right to
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html

you should have posted this in there as opposed to here in the first place anyways

i thought you were basically broke and your bf paid for everything - or is this car for him and you just telling more of his story for him?

8/26/2008 9:27:58 PM

^^if thats the case, find another Pontiac dealership. Problem solved.

8/26/2008 9:28:41 PM

just quityerbitchin and don't go back

8/26/2008 9:28:44 PM

Just wait, guys

8/26/2008 9:31:35 PM

Quote :

"DJ, Salesmen refused to budge on ANYTHING. AT ALL. 2009 Pontiac vibe for 19575 with AC, automatic, moonroof, the +1 tires, and monsoon sound system. I'll have a more comprehensive writeup soon, but basically the dealership mgr on duty was an ass. I'll share here, because I'm pretty certain I was not at all a bitch, but their behavior ..."

like i said, you most likely got a salesman / dealership that didn't need the numbers or the money bad enough. I had this same thing happen when i bought my Tacoma back in 2000. the salesman basically told my Dad that there was nothing more he could do for us. So my dad, who is probably the best negotiator I had ever seen, told the salesman "ok, fine then. go get me another salesman". sure enough, the second salesman worked the deal.

8/26/2008 9:33:09 PM

why not go to a different dealer?

8/26/2008 9:43:37 PM

1) yes
2) yes

8/26/2008 9:44:23 PM

^^ yeah, and not just 1 either. go to several, and make sure you let them know that you are going to several.

Every successful negotiation ends in a win:win. You go in with your number, they come in with their number, you meet somewhere in the middle, and everyone is happy. Your situation was definitely a win for him and a loss for you, and that is not a negotiation.

8/26/2008 9:46:03 PM

Quote :

"1) the dealership does have room to negotiate on the price 2) only a fool pays the sticker price? "

considering i just paid 36k out the door for a 52k truck, yes

Quote :

"DJ, Salesmen refused to budge on ANYTHING."

you're a woman, sucks but its true, for my gf's car, she couldn't get em below $29,400 in 2 hours, i went in 10 minutes later and within half an hour had them down to $26,200

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:49 PM. Reason : ]

8/26/2008 9:47:27 PM

oh hell yes, especially for trucks and big SUVs right now. gas prices are killing the dealerships when it comes to gas guzzlers. I'm suprised you didn't get a blowjob out of that deal as well.

the last thing a car salesman wants to hear is "let me call my husband"

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:51 PM. Reason : a]

8/26/2008 9:50:47 PM

We bought a car last Wednesday. The salesman told us "My manager has already discounted the price in order to move it off of the lot, but we are not going to lose a sale if something else is going to make you feel better." If they will not touch the sticker price, negotiate other items: service, trade-in value, APR, accessories, etc.

8/26/2008 9:51:24 PM

I've written this up for my mother, because I really am conflicted about this. And by conflicted, I mean "Making sure I didn't do anything egregiously wrong or commit some terrible fuax pas of which I am unaware". I have tried to keep it short.

I went out of my way to not be a demanding, condescending bitch, but the reaction of the manager has got me doubting it. This is my first experience with buying a new car. Matt = zorthage, and he's someone who hates negotiation, confrontation, or playing any sort of hardball.

Misha - thanks. I'll watch it in a few.


In writing this up, I have completely ignored logistics like
- dealer's lies/mistruths
- dealer financing (That's another bargaining chip for us to use, and if they work with us on it, we will be more than happy to use it)
- what we COULD have gotten

This is about their pigheadedness, and the subsequent overreaction? by the manager
---
Matt and I went to Thompson Cadillac, Pontiac, and GM of Raleigh tonight. He's eying a 2008 or 2009 Vibe, both of which are eligible for GM's Employee Pricing offer. We arrived around 7:20 or so (the dealership closes at 8), and told the salesman Matt was interested in a Vibe. [Insert discussion about desired features, colors, year, etc, until we sit in a car, and Matt takes it for a test drive.] Before going inside to get the key, the salesman asked Matt his timetable for buying, seeing as how close it was to closing. For the right price, and maybe a little more, Matt was fully prepared to buy tonight. What he said to the salesman was "In the near future - I'm not just looking to drive the car". Not quite verbatim, but very close.

So, took it for a very short loop, came back, parked, and the sales guy asked "So, what would it take for you to drive home with this tonight?" I asked Matt whether he wanted to do the haggling, or let me, and he wanted me to. So, I said "How about 16K?"

The salesman started talking about how the GM Employee Pricing is actually below invoice, and if they sell a car for less, they'll lose the privilege of ever being able to offer it Employee Pricing again at that dealership, and so he just can't. I said "Well, when I gave you that number, I was expecting you to come back with a counteroffer". The salesman said "I realize that, but there simply isn't one. GM has done all that for you, in coming to the price you see on the sticker".

I pointed out that with Matt having excellent credit, being a member of State Employee's Credit Union, and the salesman not negotiating, he had literally not given us any reason to deal with the dealership. The salesman countered with "We'll match whatever interest rate you'll get from them." I pointed out that, as Matt has excellent credit, that wasn't a concern at all. He asked how, and I started listing relevant facts - excellent payment history, debt utilization ratio, credit length, etc. The salesman wanted to know Matt's numerical score, and said "I have no idea what you're talking about. That's way too much information for me. Let's go inside and talk to my manager." So we did.

[Insert much insistence that the dealership
cannot
- include any extras, like roof rack or all-weather mats
- pay the title/tax/fees
- waive the dealership's processing fee (Which the salesman said "pays his health insurance"). He even said that it'd be illegal to not charge it to us!
- budge on the price of the vehicle]

They even broke out some binders to show me how GM says the Employee Pricing offer is only compatible with X, Y, and Z offers, is not available in certain cases. In here, I realized the papers they were showing me about the car's add-ons and features, and pricing, wasn't even for the car Matt had test-driven. I pointed this out, and man, the salesman and manager got flustered. They went and pulled an invoice off the web (I noted the URL, but forgot about it. I was going to try to access that site from home), that has a disclaimer that said, basically, "The invoice price listed above does not reflect the amount paid by the dealer, due to rebates, manufacturer incentives, advertising refunds, holdbacks, etc". I pointed this out, and the manager points to a figure, and says "This is all we will get ($886), because GM gives that to us for selling the car." Because this + the dealership processing fee was less than $1300, I said "So, you all pay all your operating costs from this? If you sell one car a day, that's not enough", and he says "Well, we try to sell 2 or 3 a day".

After ensuring, one more time, that there was nothing they could do, I stood up, shook hands with the manager and salesman, said thank you for you time, and that we may or may not be back in the future. As I was walking to the door, I said, "You all have a good night"

The manager got MAD - turned red, and said "Do me a favor?"
"Yes, sir?"
"Don't EVER come back! We don't want to sell to..."

Because he was storming away, I didn't hear him, and the salesman had reacted very quickly to Matt, shaking his hand and saying goodbye. So Matt also didn't hear what the manager called me. I wish I had. At this time, it was 8:21pm.

Throughout all of this, I was careful to remain respectful, polite, and courteous. No point in being a rude jackass when asking for things, you know? I even went so far as to always use "could" instead of "would" in cases where it might seem that I'd be insinuating they're being deceptive. ("You all really couldn't knock a thousand off the sticker price?" instead of "You all really won't..."). I know car salesmen deal with a lot of defensive, hostile people, or people who are hostile, and bound and determined to 'best' the salesman, and I didn't want to subject someone to that without knowing whether or not they deserved it.

Quote :

"You go in with your number, they come in with their number, you meet somewhere in the middle, and everyone is happy. Your situation was definitely a win for him and a loss for you, and that is not a negotiation."

No...because he insisted on a win:loss ration, we kept it to be win for us, loss for him: he doesn't get a sale, and we don't support a dealership that behaves like this.

Quote :

"why not go to a different dealer?"

We will be. Oh god, will we be.

Quote :

"you're a woman, sucks but its true, for my gf's car, she couldn't get em below $29,400 in 2 hours, i went in 10 minutes later and within half an hour had them down to $26,200"

They know this vehicle is for him.
They're also going to fuck themselves over by jerking me around. Maybe not AS MUCH by jerking around a typical guy (My target price for this vehicle is 15K; hard upper limit of 16,5 from matt, and that WILL include title/taxes/fees/etc)

Quote :

"If they will not touch the sticker price, negotiate other items: service, trade-in value, APR, accessories, etc."

I tried.
They wouldn't do a damn thing

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:54 PM. Reason : so we walked]

8/26/2008 9:51:46 PM

Quote :

"why not go to a different dealer?"

8/26/2008 9:53:21 PM

plus they gave me 7k on my trade in which was worth maybe 3k

so all total, i drove in with a 3k truck, and drove out (7 hours later mind you) with a 52k truck and only financed 29k with nothing down

nothing like closing a deal at 11:30 at night, i wore that salesman down like a cambodian hostage

8/26/2008 9:53:47 PM

holy shit, you wrote a fucking book about this shit. you are WAAAAY overthinking it. seriously, just go to another dealership and tell them what happened. 9 times out of 10 they will start at a lower price automatically just out of competition

^ yeah, when we bought my ex's car we were there for about 8 hours.

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:55 PM. Reason : a]

8/26/2008 9:54:57 PM

Quote :

"you are WAAAAY overthinking it."

That's what I figured.

I even said to matt, "I'm being a woman about this, aren't I?"

8/26/2008 9:55:57 PM

I have to start looking for 09's soon

The 08 has been great, but I only ride in the year that I'm in

so i got some research cut out for me

i'm thinking audi for some reason

8/26/2008 9:58:09 PM

you definitely did the right thing by walking though. car salesmen are taught to do whatever it takes to make sure you don't leave the lot. the fact that he completely shut down and refused to negotiate means that he is either already at quota, doesn't need the money, or is just a shitty salesman. Either way, you definitely shouldn't do business with them.

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 9:59 PM. Reason : a]

8/26/2008 9:58:56 PM

also, negotiate out the door price, including every fee and sales tax, otherwise you will go batshit crazy crunching numbers, it makes it harder for them to confuse you

8/26/2008 9:59:16 PM

Word. I wouldn't go back to that dealership.

8/26/2008 10:01:11 PM

Quote :

"car salesmen are taught to do whatever it takes to make sure you don't leave the lot. the fact that he completely shut down and refused to negotiate means that you definitely shouldn't do business with them."

That is exactly what I thought - and how I knew he was blowing smoke, although I didn't outright call him a liar.

Quote :

"also, negotiate out the door price, including every fee and sales tax, otherwise you will go batshit crazy crunching numbers, it makes it harder for them to confuse you"

I'm torn between doing this, and letting them try to confuse me, and then capitalize on that.

I also make an incredibly silent bystander, and may come to play that role until it's time to settle on a price. This is the first dealership, of many, I'm sure.

So...anyone have any GM dealerships they'd recommend?

^we aren't. I am considering sending the manager a link to this thread, and an email to the salesman I REALLY like on Saturday, saying "Your manager's behavior has has ensured that I am sharing our experience with folks. We actually came looking for you, and thank you for your attitude and behavior on Saturday"

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 10:02 PM. Reason : ljkd]

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 10:03 PM. Reason : V no shit, sherlock ]

8/26/2008 10:01:19 PM

if you pay MSRP for a pontiac you've lost your mind

8/26/2008 10:02:34 PM

go to gm's website, check out the dealers and see what they have on the lot, most dealers will come down more on inventory they have on the lot as opposed to getting it for you

8/26/2008 10:02:49 PM

This was on the lot - part of his whole 'want/need a car now!!'

8/26/2008 10:03:26 PM

We had the most success once we sat down at the desk and started looking at the numbers. They showed us what our monthly payment would look like pre-negotiations and that was when we started to talk turkey. My husband said that he was really looking at paying x amount a month and then they started tweaking numbers for us. Lowering this, lowering that, offering us this and that.

8/26/2008 10:03:58 PM

I'd check out either carsdirect.com, the AAA car buying service, or since matt's a member of ncsecu, use their car buying service (can apply online through member services). The ncsecu will give you a quote on the final price, out the door for free, I think AAA is supposed to charge, but they didn't for me, and its good towards the price of the car if you buy through them.

Its pretty early to be buying the '09 still, so you might want to wait a little longer, they know anybody wanting the 09 right now, really wants it.

8/26/2008 10:04:00 PM

If you pay cash you can get a better deal

like thousands less even

8/26/2008 10:04:47 PM

it is also quite possible that he made a common mistake in sales. he may have stereotyped you as a "shopper" rather than a "buyer". in other words, he took the gamble that you weren't actually going to buy, so rather than waste half a day negotiating only to have you walk out the door, he played hardball so he could get to the next potential buyer.

8/26/2008 10:05:02 PM

1st thing you learn in sales

"People hate to be sold...but they love to buy"

Your boy obviously skipped 101

8/26/2008 10:05:56 PM

i know that i personally had a hard time with stereotyping early in my sales career. I would frequently look at a business and think "there is no way they can afford this, so I am just wasting my time". I would give a half-assed presentation only to lose the deal to a more expensive competitor.

now i go into every presentation assuming that every prospect is ready to sign paperwork that day.

8/26/2008 10:08:05 PM

Quote :

"They showed us what our monthly payment would look like pre-negotiations and that was when we started to talk turkey. My husband said that he was really looking at paying x amount a month and then they started tweaking numbers for us. Lowering this, lowering that, offering us this and that."

It's a lot easier to get a purchase price, and calculate payments from that, than to talk monthly payments, and give them a chance to pull lending shenanigans.

Quote :

"he ncsecu will give you a quote on the final price, out the door for free, I think AAA is supposed to charge, but they didn't for me, and its good towards the price of the car if you buy through them. "

I'm also using my membership with USAA to this end - and to rule out some dealerships (Like the one that emailed twice and called once, in two hours! GM called me today, to make sure someone had contacted me, and I told them about this. I told the guy "If you took a chick on a date, and she pulled the same shit, you'd call her crazy, and write her off". He laughed )

Quote :

"If you pay cash you can get a better deal"

On the other hand, you can also play it smart with the financing. If you pay cash, they don't get any money in interest from you. And if you have to finance, and read their paperwork very carefully...it's not so bad. Other than the whole sleeping-with-the-devil part >.<

Quote :

"he played hardball so he could get to the next potential buyer."

40 minutes before closing on a rainy weeknight? crackaplz

Quote :

"know that i personally had a hard time with stereotyping early in my sales career. I would frequently look at a business and think "there is no way they can afford this, so I am just wasting my time". I would give a half-assed presentation only to lose the deal to a more expensive competitor."

This is the interpersonal version of 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst'

And man, Matt does typically look the part of a brokeass hobo slacker

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason : ljksd]

8/26/2008 10:08:44 PM

Quote :

"40 minutes before closing on a rainy weeknight? crackaplz "

well there is your answer right there. he didn't need the money / numbers bad enough to stay late and negotiate. he knew if you showed up that late you were just shopping, and not buying. a car deal takes a minimum of 4 hours, MINIMUM.

8/26/2008 10:10:28 PM

Quote :

"a car deal takes a minimum of 4 hours, MINIMUM."

WTF FOR?

If that's so, thanks for the headsup. Matt's wanting to get a car this week, but...works til 6 or 7 - 6 is the earliest.

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 10:12 PM. Reason : I'm thinking we'll drive to some non-raleigh dealerships this weekend.]

8/26/2008 10:11:36 PM

haha

8/26/2008 10:12:12 PM

Quote :

"If you pay cash you can get a better deal like thousands less even"

They get "cash" either way I'm assuming on any used car they sell. They may finance new cars through their own bank but I'm not dumb enough to buy a new car (or a pontiac for that matter).

[Edited on August 26, 2008 at 10:13 PM. Reason : .]

8/26/2008 10:13:31 PM

have you never bought a car before? shit, the test drive and paperwork alone should take at least 2 hours. you honestly went to a dealership 40 minutes before they closed expecting to drive off the lot in a new car? or where you just shopping?

8/26/2008 10:13:37 PM

Quote :

"I also make an incredibly silent bystander"

from everything you've said - you've done all the talking - you don't sound anything like a silent partner - hell you talk for zorthage on here just as in person how many threads have you made "for him"

8/26/2008 10:14:03 PM

Quote :

"you honestly went to a dealership 40 minutes before they closed expecting to drive off the lot in a new car? or where you just shopping?"

Yeah

The whole 'knowing what he wants' thing

Quote :

"from everything you've said - you've done all the talking - you don't sound anything like a silent partner"

I do
I also keep quiet, as needed.

Fortunately, it's not truly needed often. And we make a great team.

8/26/2008 10:16:46 PM

even if you walked in and agreed to pay sticker, with no negotiations, you're looking at at least 2 hours.

8/26/2008 10:17:30 PM

Quote :

"have you never bought a car before? shit, the test drive and paperwork alone should take at least 2 hours. "

Truth. Even when I bought a car from a ghetto ass dealer on Capital for $1200 it took around 2.5 hours to complete the sale.

8/26/2008 10:18:03 PM