Two days ago regular unleaded was $3.58 on avg here in wilmington. Today during my lunch I was running low and heard some rumors about gas going up b.c of the storm so i filled up. At this point gas was $3.72 for regular (granted i paid 3.92 for premium). 4 Fucking hours later the cheapest gas i saw on my way home was (i pass 5 gas stations on my way) was $4.19. That is nearly 50 cents in 4 hours and 60 cents in two days.

This is fucking BULLSHIT in my opinion. News reports say only 25% of the Gulf supply was shutting down for the storm. I am not sure what % the gulf represents of solely the US domestic supply but I do know that only a fraction of our oil even comes from home. Further with the storm not even hitting yet i find it highly unlikely that any supply perbutation has even gone through system. It just seems like ever since Katrina; Big Oil realized how inelastic on the short term gas prices are. Therefore any time the wind blows the wrong way, some camel jockey in the middle east blows himself up, or Iran talks angry at the US, then some big shot pushing buttons is like "look at the news; seems like a good reason to jack up gas prices 10 cents and squeeze some more money out of the american people". I would normally just pin this as a normal part of the market reacting. Seeing though how it has emerged that people within the Dept of Interior have been fucking, receiving gifts, and partying it down with big shots in the energy industry; no surprise would it be if some shady supply side activities were going down.

[Edited on September 12, 2008 at 8:44 PM. Reason : ,]

9/12/2008 8:42:45 PM

Quote :

"Today during my lunch I was running low and heard some rumors about gas going up b.c of the storm so i filled up."

there is your reason, dipshit. people like YOU hear some rumours, go out, and buy a bunch of gas for no reason. That drives the price up, especially when stations get low on gas. And, it aint the supply of oil from the Gulf that is the problem. It's that 25% of the nation's refineries are in the Houston area. And, to make matters worse, they've already shut down the refineries there, so yes, there is a perturbation in the supply at this point.

But, in this instance, the people who are actually to blame are the individual gas station owners and NOT the big oil companies. Raising the price 50cents in 4 hours is not reflective of the cost of gas going up. It is price gouging, plain and simple.

9/12/2008 8:53:19 PM

Ugh. It depresses me that people have no clue how the oil/gas industry works. The vast majority of what you are seeing is not gouging. I have explained this so many times today, I'm sick of explaining it.

-Just know that wholesale prices are well above $4 in many locations (thats what the retailers get the gas for).
-Many gas retailers are being told they will have no deliveries for a while (store will sell no gas)
-Many gas retailers need to generate revenue before they take delivery of expensive gas so that when the wholesale prices fall next week, and they have to reduce the price of gas at the pump, they can afford to take a loss to keep up with the competition.

"This is fucking BULLSHIT in my opinion. News reports say only 25% of the Gulf supply was shutting down for the storm. I am not sure what % the gulf represents of solely the US domestic supply but I do know that only a fraction of our oil even comes from home."

You really should stop talking about oil so passionately. You dont know much. First of all, the supply of oil is not the problem right now. Its a problem, but not the major one. Oil is down for the week. The problem is that the Galveston area refines about 5 million barrels a day of gas and oil related products. We cannot ramp up refineries in other areas, nor instantly increase refined product imports to make up for that loss. We only have about 180 million barrels of gas on-hand. That means large draws on inventories. It also means that we will have less suppliers with the same amount of buyers. This means prices will go up.

[Edited on September 12, 2008 at 9:02 PM. Reason : .]

9/12/2008 9:01:28 PM

9/12/2008 9:09:10 PM

to reiterate:

9/12/2008 9:16:23 PM

For once, I'm pleased by the pleasantries of politics. At least when candidates hear folks complaining about high gas prices, they can't respond with derision.

9/12/2008 9:21:59 PM

What was happening in this state was in fact gouging. The wholesale price of gasoline had only gone up 20%, however, the rate increase at the gas stations was far more than 20%. The way the law works, the Governor of North Carolina has the right, when a state of emergency is enacted in another state, to enact the price gouging statue. Under the statute, once put into place, the price of gasoline can only increase with the wholesale value of gas and cannot exceed the wholesale increase. Today, the gas stations were increasing their price of gas by 40%. That is by definition gouging.

9/12/2008 9:52:56 PM

hooksaw: ZOMG [user]nutsmakr[/user] hates capitalism and is spreading liberal propraganda. Stop being a
communist, attach that american flag sticker to your windshield, and accept your butt rapeing by the oil barons like
a good lil american.

9/12/2008 10:00:20 PM

what can I say? I dealt with this all day today and was in contact with the head of the Consumer Protection division of the DOJ.

It is sad that the gas stations were engaging in this practice. To be fair though, many of them do not have a decision on the matter since per their contracts many of them are told what to set the value of the gas at.

[Edited on September 12, 2008 at 10:02 PM. Reason : .]

9/12/2008 10:01:55 PM

What is your job?

9/12/2008 10:12:33 PM

being a douchebag. he does it well, btw

9/12/2008 10:12:57 PM

Let's see if I understand this correctly.

1) Rumors go out about an interruption in supply
2) Every moron around here decides to fill up their tank right now
3) Gas retailers raise price in response
4) Price signal discourages morons from continuing to make a run on the immediate gas supplies

...and somehow, the villain here is the gas station owner, rather than every moron who thinks filling up right now is necessary and proper.

Hey, I have an idea - let's force them to maintain the same price, and then watch what happens when morons still keep flooding the pumps! When the supply at the local pumps totally dries up, I bet that too will somehow be the local station owners' faults!

9/12/2008 10:15:25 PM

^ Have you heard of a negative feedback loop twat?


I blame consumers partly but the supply side is by no means ignoring the profit opportunity created due to the fear within the populace of a major disruption in the refineries caused the hurricane. When prices jumped 15 cents from 3.58-3.72 within 2 days I noticed the change; expecting this due to the hurricane i only filled up to half of a tank. Allowing me to drive around at least a week when i expected prices to settle down. There is no way i would have let myself gotten suckered into paying 4.19; which was the price after work. My roommate started freaking when i told him the news but i convinced him to not get gas.

With crude dropping in no way do i see this price level sustainable unless there is a catastrophic disruption due to the hurricane. Come Monday everyone is going to realize the hurricane was not the big deal the fear mongers attempted to portray it. Gas prices will drop back down to 3.60; meanwhile the ExXon CEO with his butt buddy in the Dept. of the Interior will be sipping champagne and smiling over a highly profitable quarter.

[Edited on September 12, 2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason : l]

9/12/2008 10:52:05 PM

What the crap do you think I'm describing, moron?

Oh, but I know. If we just stop those station owners, that'll surely solve all our problems. I mean, those long gas lines in the 70's? Had nothing to do with putting in price controls.

Price controls never introduce artificial shortages in the face of the behavior of panicky idiots. Ever.

9/12/2008 10:59:25 PM

Nate, I'm kinda surprised it took you so long to figure this out.

Of course I remember Katrina, so I saw this shit coming. I filled up my tank on Wednesday (as it were I was almost empty anyway). A full tank with just normal driving around town/going to work lasts me about 10 days. So I shouldn't have to worry about price gouging.

Now, about people freaking out over gas prices. Who the fuck freaks out when they randomly lose a $20 bill? Nobody I know. Which is funny, b/c thats not very different than these gas prices going up suddenly. I mean how much money are most people REALLY losing?

*some ppl have to drive a lot every day b/c of their job. I feel for them (but they shoudl be reimbursed if its their job)

9/13/2008 1:37:50 AM

Quote :

"Now, about people freaking out over gas prices. Who the fuck freaks out when they randomly lose a $20 bill? Nobody I know. Which is funny, b/c thats not very different than these gas prices going up suddenly. I mean how much money are most people REALLY losing?"

you are right but i'd rather give my $20 bill to a fucking crack head than fluffing up the bonus check of the conoco phillips executive board so they can upgrade their 30 ft yacht to a 50 ft one.

9/13/2008 2:40:50 AM

This thread is filled with failure

Wholesale prices are up well over what Easley said, I have no idea what in the world he is talking about. IIRC the price went up 20% just on MONDAY.

If NOBODY had "panic bought", the difference would have been that gas would have increased maybe two days later. Gas stations will be struggling to make a profit as is with wholesale gas where it is.

"Panic buying" is a completely logical response when you know that the price of something that you need is about to increase in short order.

The only reason to keep gas prices low is to save money - so why should we avoid saving money by not buying gas, when the only affect will be to possible delay the price increase by a day or two?



[Edited on September 13, 2008 at 3:41 AM. Reason : unreadable posts at 3:40am need to be edited]

9/13/2008 3:35:36 AM

I can't say for certain what's going on. All I know is when I drove back from class at 9 am this morning, gas was about 3.70. When I drove to work at 6, it was 4.90. And when I went to Cookout an hour ago, it one station had already gone back down to 4.20. So I bet there's a decent chance some bullshit was going on just because they can get away with it.

On a positive note, there were definitely a lot less cars on the road today.

9/13/2008 5:33:45 AM

Gasoline retailers are extremely competitive, thus their margins are relatively tight. If there was any gouging, it would not be able to persist for more than a few hours given the station across the street/block will be more than willing to undercut the other retailer's price. Given this, I would doubt there was significant gouging. Any price fluctuations were probably responses to new information about the refineries (just as the price of a company's stock will fluctuate with differing news stories on its operations)

Quote :

"you are right but i'd rather give my $20 bill to a fucking crack head than fluffing up the bonus check of the conoco phillips executive board"

ConocoPhillips doesn't own any retail stations any longer. Exxon made a similar move and BP is in the process of exiting the business.

Quote :

"This latest deal highlights the changing retail gas industry as oil majors and refiners exit the low-margin business while discount retailers increasingly enter it in a bid to lure customers. As oil prices have increased, profits at the pump have been squeezed as consumers balk at buying gas above the $4 per gallon threshold. Even with record-high gas prices, retail stations are one of the least profitable business units for oil majors."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/93041-conocophillips-is-latest-oil-major-to-exit-low-margin-retail-gas-stations

9/13/2008 8:40:17 AM

Quote :

"Ike Forces Shutdown of 19% of U.S. Refining Capacity (Update1) By Jordan Burke Sept. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Hurricane Ike, which made landfall along the U.S. Gulf Coast today, caused more than 19 percent of the nation's refining capacity to close and may limit fuel deliveries across the country. At least 13 refineries in Texas shut down as Ike approached. Gulf Coast refineries and ports are the source of about 50 percent of the fuel and crude used in the eastern half of the U.S. Plants operated by Exxon Mobil Corp., Valero Energy Corp., ConocoPhillips and Royal Dutch Shell Plc were affected. Gasoline shortages may occur across the southern U.S. up to Washington because of the closures caused by Hurricane Gustav and now Ike, Kevin Kolevar, assistant secretary for electricity delivery and energy reliability at the U.S. Department of Energy, said on a conference call yesterday. ``We expect to see constrained supplies of refined products,'' he said. ``The administration will utilize every tool at our disposal to lessen the likelihood of limited fuel supplies,'' including tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. [...] The storm idled about 98 percent of oil production and 94 percent of natural-gas output in the Gulf of Mexico, the U.S. Minerals Management Service said yesterday. Gulf fields produce 1.3 million barrels oil a day, about a quarter of U.S. output, and 7.4 billion cubic feet of gas, 14 percent of the total, government data show. ``This is more of a refinery issue than an oil and gas issue,'' said Jim Rouiller, senior energy meteorologist at Planalytics Inc. in Wayne, Pennsylvania. ``A storm as massive as Ike has the capacity to generate massive storm surge.'' Gasoline for October delivery rose 2.08 cents, or 0.8 percent, to settle at $2.7696 a gallon yesterday on the New York Mercantile Exchange as the refineries closed. Prices rose 3.1 percent this week. [...] Exxon Mobil shut down its Baytown, Texas, refinery, the biggest in the U.S, with processing capacity of 590,500 barrels of oil a day, and its Beaumont plant, which can process 363,100 barrels a day, according to the company's Web site. Exxon is the world's largest oil company. Valero, the largest U.S. refiner, closed three Texas oil refineries with a combined capacity of 589,000 barrels a day. They are the 294,000-barrel-a-day Port Arthur refinery, a Texas City plant with a capacity of 210,000 barrels and a Houston facility that can process 85,000 barrels, spokesman Bill Day said in an e-mail. [...] Motiva Enterprises LLC, a joint venture of Royal Dutch Shell Plc and Saudi Arabia's state oil company, started shutting down its 300,000-barrel-a-day plant in Port Arthur yesterday, Shell said on its Web site. Shell is also closing its Deer Park plant, which can process 340,000 barrels per day. Motiva's Beaumont, Pasadena and North Houston terminals are also closed and refined product supplies at those terminals remain at ``safety levels,'' Shell said in a statement. Tank drivers earlier picked up their last loads and are making final deliveries in the region to refuel Shell-branded stations before Hurricane Ike makes landfall. Citgo Petroleum Corp., owned by Venezuela's state oil company, declined to comment on the status of its refineries in Corpus Christi, Texas, and Lake Charles, Louisiana. [...] Planalytics' Rouiller said Ike is similar to Hurricane Alicia in 1983. ``It took them over a year to get their feet on the ground again,'' he said. ``The refineries were down for months. Basically, the whole infrastructure around the Houston metropolitan area was devastated.'' Gasoline supplies across the southern and eastern U.S. may be disrupted by the storm, Rouiller said. ``We could have this capability lost for a long period of time,'' he said. The U.S. Coast Guard closed the port of Houston, the nation's largest petroleum port. The Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, the biggest U.S. oil-import terminal, stopped unloading vessels. [...] BP is closing its 475,000-barrel-a-day Texas City, Texas, refinery. ConocoPhillips, the second-largest U.S. refiner, said its 260,000 barrel-a-day refinery in Sweeny, Texas, is closing. LyondellBasell Industries is shutting its 299,300-barrel-a-day Houston Refining LP plant. Conoco's Pasadena, Texas, refined products terminal and Clifton Ridge Marine terminal near Lake Charles also closed earlier today, and all company-operated pipelines in the region are shut down. LyondellBasell Industries is shutting its 299,300-barrel-a- day Houston Refining LP plant. Marathon Oil Corp., the fourth-largest U.S. oil company, began to shut its Texas City refinery, which can process about 81,500 barrels of oil a day. Total SA, Europe's third-largest oil company, is shutting down its Port Arthur refinery, which can process about 240,000 barrels a day. ``Ike is headed into the heart of the refining industry,'' Bruce Bullock, director of the Maguire Energy Institute at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, said in an interview. ``The damage is likely to come in flooding, a lack of power for an extended period of time.''"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a7v8oWAwoNIs&refer=home

9/13/2008 8:53:33 AM

Quote :

" Wholesale prices are up well over what Easley said, I have no idea what in the world he is talking about. IIRC the price went up 20% just on MONDAY."

yes, the wholesale value was up. However, the increase in the wholesale price yesterday, was not what was being passed on to the consumers. Consumers were getting about 40% increase.

9/13/2008 9:46:41 AM

^and you were just loving it. aren't you happy that all these extra tax dollars are going to the gov't??? no?? remember, all the profits are still taxed sir.

9/13/2008 9:52:03 AM

what are you even talking about?

9/13/2008 9:54:18 AM

Quote :

"The way the law works, the Governor of North Carolina has the right, when a state of emergency is enacted in another state, to enact the price gouging statue."

So why would the governor do this when he'd be pleased as punch to just let the gas prices be as high as possible so the gas tax can go up by the next time they readjust it... if it still works that way, I haven't kept up.

They should also do some significant research to find out where hurricanes are the most likely to go, dismantle a few refineries, and rebuild them wherever their research tells them hurricanes are the most likely to make landfall.

It's a good thing we didn't have hurricanes to drive up the gas prices when I was a kid.

[Edited on September 13, 2008 at 10:08 AM. Reason : -]

9/13/2008 10:02:49 AM

the gas tax is capped.

9/13/2008 10:08:59 AM

Wow. They went ahead and did that then. I haven't really watched the news in a long time. When did they pull that off?

EDIT: Found this that was posted in Jan '07

Quote :

"Charlotte Observer: Legislature’s cap saves drivers 3 cents a gallon North Carolina’s gas tax would have risen three cents a gallon this week if not for a temporary cap approved by lawmakers last year, the Observer has learned. Motorists would have paid 33 cents a gallon under the old formula, the state Department of Revenue said. The tax is capped at 30 cents until June 30. A record three-cent increase a year ago led legislators to halt further tax hikes…"

Which makes it sound like it went back to business as usual after June 30, 2007. Did they recap it?

[Edited on September 13, 2008 at 10:21 AM. Reason : -]

9/13/2008 10:18:59 AM

they have done that for at least the last three years

The cap has to be repassed every year.

[Edited on September 13, 2008 at 10:22 AM. Reason : .]

9/13/2008 10:22:00 AM

Oh, ok. Thanks for the info.

9/13/2008 10:24:18 AM

It is caused by The Enron Loophole not the Hurricane. Educate yourselves please.

http://closeloophole.org/

[Edited on September 13, 2008 at 6:48 PM. Reason : ..]

9/13/2008 6:46:53 PM

it does kind of seem bizarre to me how the price of gas has gone up so much while crude has stayed extremely low.

9/13/2008 6:47:47 PM

^^ The "Enron Loophole" has absolutely nothing to do with the short term increase in refined gasoline prices caused by back-to-back hurricanes shutting down refining capacity.

This "loophole" deals with the trading of non-financial, non-agricultural commodities such as Crude Oil. Crude Oil, if you haven't noticed, has dropped 35% in the last 2 months.

You shouldn't equate speculation to higher prices exclusively, it works the other way also. You also shouldn't equate a lack of regulation to speculation or a run up in commodities - poorly crafty government regulation can be a prime source of increasing speculation by introducing artificial incentives.

As an example, government closely regulates the federal interest rate, and the choice to keep interest rates low from 2001-2005 is a major reason for the creation of the housing bubble. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and a governmental attitude of increasing home-ownership is another.

9/13/2008 10:19:54 PM

^ Are you kidding me. Yeah, it had finally started to drop once folks started paying attention to it, but it still exists for moments like this. The price went up at the threat of a Hurricane because of the loophole.

http://bluenc.com/the-enron-loophole

http://closeloophole.org/enron-loophole/

9/13/2008 11:37:17 PM

^ Crude oil has not increased in the past few days, it is still at 101 a barrel The increase at the pumps is related to a disruption in supply and has nothing at all to do with speculators.

9/14/2008 12:04:41 AM

inelasticity.

9/14/2008 12:14:09 AM

^^ Okay, keep telling yourself that.

9/14/2008 12:19:47 AM

i fail to see what's so terrible about speculators. it's just part of the game...sometimes they're wrong in the direction that hurts the consumer today, but sometimes it's the opposite.

9/14/2008 12:23:38 AM

^^

If speculation were driving spot prices, we would see large increases in inventories. This has yet to happen on a significant scale.

http://dss.ucsd.edu/~jhamilto/understand_oil.pdf

9/14/2008 9:47:21 AM

all i know is that i'm glad i don't have a car and i'm able to walk to work or take public transportation elsewhere when needed.



[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 10:12 AM. Reason : []

9/14/2008 10:11:03 AM

^ same

9/14/2008 10:21:01 AM

price fluidity is crucial to ensure that there are no shortages

the stations that didnt raise their price were obviously selling it too low and now they are screwed because they have nothing to sell

9/14/2008 10:43:22 AM

I liked how the next day by noon I went back out and gas had dropped 20 cents. I doubt the tanker trucks had made 2 refills within the 24 hour period with different invoice prices for each load. The gas station essentially used the "hurricane news" in order to stuff their pockets making significant net profit over their normal margins.

I think the current price reflects the market pressure of the supply blip due the hurricane. The $4.19 most definitely was not and very suspicious. Smells like gouging to me; someone probably gave Gov. Easley some head also.

9/14/2008 11:57:10 AM

I wish more gouging had occurred, maybe then my co-workers wife wouldn't be stranded on the side of the road because every gas station she went to today was out of gas. Instead, prices remained relatively sane, and people went crazy buying up as much as they could. If you're crazy enough to flip out on "hurricane news" and stock pile your gas, you deserve to be soaked for every penny you have.

To prove ^^'s point, the big exxon down the street from me only raised their prices 30¢ (to ~$3.80) today they are completely out of gas. By comparison the 3 pump Shell further down the street, which is normally 5¢ cheaper than exxon and almost twice as busy, shot their prices up over $4 initially, and today have plenty of gas to sell.


[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 1:03 PM. Reason : asdf]

9/14/2008 12:59:23 PM

Quote :

"I wish more gouging had occurred, maybe then my co-workers wife wouldn't be stranded on the side of the road because every gas station she went to today was out of gas"

I do not know where the fuck you live but i have not seen any gas stations here run out of gas. I enjoy capitalism too; but i love how the typically neo-con supporting people in here always have a wonderful anecdote about the market failing or succeeding in favor of big business. In doing this though denying any possibility that the barons in the oil industry are up to any misdeeds or manipulation.

Enron was not an isolated incident. Many in this forum are fooling themselves if they think we live in happy perfect free market capitalism land. The energy sector since the 1800s have been wrapped in scandal, market corning, "influencing" politicians if not out right buying them, and use of anti-competitive business practices to manipulate the market.

[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 1:23 PM. Reason : l]

9/14/2008 1:22:10 PM

Durham. Look, I don't deny that shady dealings happen all the time, nor do I deny that many big businesses have politicians on payroll (a consequence of giving the government authority to fuck with business) but the sudden price hike was the market at work doing exactly what it's supposed to do, which is responding to demand, it wasn't some crazy conspiracy between all of the independent gas stations across the country.

9/14/2008 1:32:47 PM

^maybe your co-workers wife should have wised up and gotten gas on Wednesday or Thursday.

Don't try to pass the blame.

9/14/2008 1:58:07 PM

No shit; that is her false to running down to "fumes" to decide to fuel up

9/14/2008 3:04:47 PM

^, ^^ what about someone who is driving their family from VA to GA and desperately needs the gas? The beauty of the pricing mechanism as a means to allocate scarce resources is that those who truly need gas will have access to it. If we force prices down, how are we to differentiate between the above-mentioned family and someone who just wants to top off their tank for good measure? Gas retailers had no way of knowing how long the refineries were going to be out, so their prices reflected their uncertainty. For all anyone knew, the refineries could have been out of operation for weeks. In such a scenario, the stations who raised their prices would have more supplies to give to those who truly need them the most.




[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 4:25 PM. Reason : .]

9/14/2008 4:16:16 PM

The Sheetz at RDU was out of gas this morning, FWIW.

9/14/2008 4:19:45 PM

^^^, ^^^^ You are of course assuming that she didn't fill up on wednesday or thursday. I realize you all love driving your Smart Cars around, but believe it or not, it is possible to use a full tank of gas in under a week. Besides, there's no blame passing because the only people at fault here are the idiots who stockpiled gas on "hurricane news" as HUR put it, and the gas station owners who didn't raise their prices enough to ensure they would have adequate stock for the next few days. It isn't my co-workers wife's fault that the HURs of the state heard on the radio that gad might go up and decided they all needed to top off before the weekend, and it's not her fault that the local gas stations failed to adjust properly to the surge in demand.

9/14/2008 5:28:39 PM

I traveled from Wilmington to the SC upstate this weekend...I saw several gas stations out of gas, and prices ranging from 3.64 to 4.71 a gallon on and off the interstate.

I think, in times of natural disasters or economic harship, the government should be allowed to control the marketplace. We live in a mixed-capitalism society where our water, sewer, and in some cases power are regulated to control pricing and protect CONSUMERS! The governments job is to PROTECT CONSUMERS. In this particular case, after the hurricane had hit, I wish the Government would have mandated a max price for gas. I also wish they would do this from hence forth.

Next time, knowing a max price will be established, the huge surge in demand will not be nearly as great, and we will not see these ridiculous antics again.

Remember Government....you establish laws to protect consumers rights.

9/14/2008 5:40:02 PM