http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aNMh_8NRE6QM&refer=worldwide

it looks like all the attempts at saving this institution are failing
barclays and bank of america have pulled out of bidding for the company and the fed refuses to step in

so what does this mean for the markets,
some say 1000 point down, who gains who benefits?

theres gotta be some gainers out there

9/14/2008 5:27:00 PM

Quote :

"theres gotta be some gainers out there"

Anyone young enough to recover. Failed businesses that engage in shady or corrupt practices should be allowed to fail. It will discourage others from engaging in similar behavior in the future.

9/14/2008 6:29:11 PM

Glad to see that the fed is not picking who to bail out. oh, wait

9/14/2008 7:59:38 PM

Monday is going to be eventful it seems to say the least.

I'd expect a flight to safety, especially t-bills, a lot of the trends we've been seeing, strengthing dollar, etc, expect perhaps on a larger scale.

Asian markets open soon and that should be the first indication. NM, Asia has a trading holiday. Australia is open, however.

It will be interesting to see what Gold does, if it continues to fall with the commodities, or if its dual nature as money will cause a rebound.

Hopefully it it mild compared to a lot of expectations. There is a ton of uncertainty being introduced, and a fdew black swans would not be a suprise. If all goes poorly it could be the derivatives time bomb that Buffet was talking about in 2003.

In addition, an emergency rate cut is probably quite likely. I doubt rate cuts will have much of an effect to save anyone, but it could serve as a bit of a time-out, which does, I feel, serve some purpose in that it make everything a little more orderly.

If there is a rate cut, then that would likely halt the rise of the dollar and decline of commodities for a time.

[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 8:30 PM. Reason : rate cut]

[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 8:33 PM. Reason : .]

9/14/2008 8:20:11 PM

I think a rate cut now is the last thing we need.

9/14/2008 8:42:40 PM

BoA buying Merrill Lynch - Fed reportedly encouraged Merrill to agree to the deal.

AIG needs to come up with a plan to raise $40,000,000,000 tonight or else face a ratings downgrade would most likely end the company. AIG is asking the Fed to give them a bridge loan to give them time to sell assets, which CNBC is calling unprecedented.

Lehman expected to declare bankrupcy shortly.

9/14/2008 9:19:40 PM

This is pretty fucking serious.

9/14/2008 9:45:51 PM

good riddance

9/14/2008 9:56:52 PM

[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 10:05 PM. Reason : [old]]

9/14/2008 10:03:38 PM

^haha, i was about to say that, old

anyways this is really crazy, but right now everything is falling on a few remaining firms and the fed
hopefully things dont get any worse or there will be no one left to bail us out

but what i cant believe is how stocks are virtually under attack by short sellers,
they somehow put up short positions on a stock and drag it down somehow and now banks have to fight against it,
why is this legal?

9/14/2008 10:11:38 PM

why wouldn't it be? The problem isn't the shorts. The problem is over leveraged, insolvent companies.

9/14/2008 10:20:53 PM

right.....
so banks have been run into the ground by greedy SOBs who have been lobbying for deregulation and playing fast and loose the with regulations that are in place, and they're about to feel the wrath of their unethical and irresponsible decisions.

And now some additional opportunistic people are going to try to make a buck on the utter failures that the companies have been, and now it's their fault the companies are failing?
yeah, keep telling yourself that.

9/14/2008 11:59:03 PM

^way to completely miss what i said.

first off im not talking aobut the clear losers like lehman or merril, they are getting what they deserve
but its that other banks who can ride out the storm but are under sever pressure by short trading which brings down their stock prices

even companies that are doing well have been hit by this practice which has decimated their stocks
but really it boils down to common sense, when you create a way to make money off business failing you will create a legion of traders devoted to finding ways to manipulate the market place in order to make money this way

i think if there is going to be reform to make financial institutions be more responsible then they should also reform the stock market and get rid of incentives for failure

9/15/2008 12:20:23 AM

Quote :

"After enduring one of the most dramatic days in its history, Wall Street received a climactic jolt on Monday when Lehman Brothers, a 158-year-old investment bank undermined by bad bets on real estate, said it will file for bankruptcy."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/14/news/companies/lehman_brothers/index.htm

9/15/2008 3:02:24 AM

9/15/2008 7:16:22 AM

^^ yeah, Monday was such a shock for Wall Street...

9/15/2008 7:37:55 AM

I have insurance through AIG, am I fucked?

9/15/2008 10:33:22 AM

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200809150751DOWJONESDJONLINE000296_FORTUNE5.htm

Quote :

"Lehman Lists Debts Of $613 Billion In Chapter 11 Filing Monday Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. (LEH) filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy Monday in New York, listing debts of $613 billion and naming as unsecured creditors owed hundreds of millions of dollars banks from Tokyo, Hong Kong, New York, Singapore and Taipei, among others. Topping the list of Lehman's unsecured debts is approximately $138 billion in senior bond debt, followed by another $17 billion in subordinated and junior bond debt, according to documents filed at 1:45 am ET in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York. The bankruptcy filing by the Wall Street firm followed a failed effort to find a buyer or persuade the U.S government to bail it out of massive real-estate- related losses. The bankruptcy petition said Lehman's assets are worth $639 billion. Citibank and the Bank of New York are trustees for the huge load of bond debt that tops Lehman's list of unsecured liabilities, court documents say. AOZORA of Tokyo is listed as the largest bank lender, with a loan of $463 million. Next is Mizuho Corporate Bank Ltd. of Tokyo, with a $289 million loan. Additionally, Lehman listed as unsecured debts a $275 million bank loan from Citibank, a $250 million bank loan from BNP Paribas, a $231 million bank loan from Japan's Shinsei Bank Ltd., a $185 million bank loan from UFJ Bank Limited of Japan, a $177 million bank loan from Sumitomo Mitsubishi Banking Corp. of Tokyo and a series of other sizable bank loans. Mizuho Corporate Bank, Shinkin Central Bank, and Chuo Mitsui Trust & Banking, all of Japan, the Bank of Nova Scotia's Singapore branch, Lloyds Bank in New York, Hua Nan Commercial Bank of Taipei and Bank of China, New York Branch, are all on the list of unsecured creditors owed more than $50 million by Lehman. The Wall Street firm said none of the broker-dealer subsidiaries or other subsidiaries of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. will be included in the Chapter 11 filing and all of the broker-dealers will continue to operate. Customers of Lehman Brothers, including customers of its wholly owned subsidiary, Neuberger Berman Holdings LLC, may continue to trade or take other actions with respect to their accounts, Lehman said. The Lehman board authorized the filing of the Chapter 11 petition in order to protect its assets and maximize value, the firm said. The New York law firm of Weil Gotshal & Manges is representing Lehman Brothers. The case has not yet been assigned to a judge."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9374EMO0&show_article=1

Quote :

"Obama blames Wall St. crisis on Republican policy CHICAGO (AP) - Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said Monday the upheaval on Wall Street was "the most serious financial crisis since the Great Depression" and blamed it on policies that he said Republican rival John McCain supports. "This country can't afford another four years of this failed philosophy," Obama said after the shock-wave announcements that financial giant Lehman Brothers was filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy while titan Merrill Lynch was being bought by Bank of America for about $50 billion. Obama's statement, issued as he prepared to fly to Colorado to begin a swing through contested Western states, was intended to serve two purposes: to link McCain with the unpopular presidency of George W. Bush and to express sympathy with the anxiety of most Americans who say the economy is issue No. 1 in the election. "The challenges facing our financial system today are more evidence that too many folks in Washington and on Wall Street weren't minding the store," Obama said in a statement. "Eight years of policies that have shredded consumer protections, loosened oversight and regulation, and encouraged outsized bonuses to CEOs while ignoring middle-class Americans have brought us to the most serious financial crisis since the Great Depression." "I certainly don't fault Sen. McCain for these problems," Obama said, "but I do fault the economic philosophy he subscribes to." In a presidential race turning increasingly negative, Obama also drew on editorial comments from U.S. newspapers and magazines to accuse McCain of running a dishonest campaign with some of the "sleaziest ads" ever seen. Obama's running mate, Sen. Joe Biden, said McCain was "launching a low blow a day" and went on to say the Republican candidate stands "with George Bush firmly in the corner of the wealthy and well-connected." Obama's campaign launched a new television commercial that aggressively pushes back against charges by McCain, the GOP presidential nominee. Obama has been under increasing pressure from Democrats to strike back harder at McCain, who has taken a slight lead in national polls. Some leading Republicans faulted both presidential campaigns Sunday for the increasingly negative tone of their advertising. Former Bush political adviser Karl Rove said McCain and Obama had both shaded the truth in campaign advertising. "McCain has gone, in some of his ads, similarly gone one step too far in sort of attributing to Obama things that are, you know, beyond the 100-percent truth test," Rove told "Fox News Sunday." The Obama campaign has complained especially about an ad that declares Obama supports sex education for kindergartners. He supported legislation that would teach age-appropriate sex education to kindergartners, including information on rejecting advances by sexual predators. "Both campaigns are making a mistake, and that is they are taking whatever their attacks are and going one step too far," Rove said. "They don't need to attack each other in this way." Obama's new commercial opens with a picture of McCain saying, "I will not take the low road to the highest office in this land." The announcer then asks, "What happened to John McCain?" The ad uses brief phrases from editorials and commentators from The Washington Post, Time magazine, the Chicago Tribune, CBS and The New Republic: "one of the sleaziest ads ever seen," "truly vile," "dishonest smears," "exposed as a lie," "a disgraceful, dishonest campaign." It concludes, "It seems `deception' is all he's got left." The McCain campaign also has put out an Internet ad accusing Obama of calling Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin a pig when he used the phrase putting "lipstick on a pig" to criticize the GOP ticket as trying to make a bad situation look better. McCain supporters said Obama was slyly alluding to Palin's description of herself as a pit bull in lipstick, but there was nothing in his remarks to support the claim. Biden, in an appearance planned Monday in St. Clair Shores, Mich., tried to link McCain with President Bush. "If you're ready for four more years of George Bush, John McCain is your man," Biden said in prepared remarks. "Just as George Herbert Walker Bush was nicknamed `Bush 41' and his son is known as `Bush 43,' John McCain could easily become known as `Bush 44.'" Excerpts of Biden's speech were released in advance by the Obama-Biden campaign. With a passing reference to McCain's sacrifices as a Vietnam prisoner of war, Biden said: "America needs more than a great solider, America needs a wise leader. Take a hard look at the positions John has taken for the past 26 years, on the economy, on health care, on foreign policy, and you'll see why I say that John McCain is just four more years of George Bush." "

9/15/2008 10:45:40 AM

Learn to swim.

Quote :

"theres gotta be some gainers out there"

In the long run, I say the American people are the gainers. Unfortunately, they're also the biggest losers in the short run... Perhaps the people will learn to pay more attention to what exactly happens when the legislative branch deregulates a key part of our economic structure with the blessing of the commander in chief.

9/15/2008 10:47:16 AM

Quote :

"Debts Of $613 Billion"

wow..... over half of a trillion dollars. that's incomprehensible....

9/15/2008 10:48:07 AM

yeah but their assets are $639b

9/15/2008 10:50:13 AM

well, that's equally incomprehensible, at least to me.
To know that one company has debt/assets that are within an order of magnitude of the entire US national debt is crazy.

9/15/2008 10:53:28 AM

BoAs pushing about 3x that in assests

9/15/2008 10:58:45 AM

Quote :

"This is a virus, with a 100% kill rate. This is a pandemic, the likes of which we have never seen. This is only something that can be fixed after we kill all the players that carry the virus, because the virus only dies when the host is dead. The hosts are the sick financial institutions being run by crooked executives, regulated by incompetent regulators, appointed by blissfully ignorant politicians and at the end of the line is a judicial system that is without power to do anything."

From Mike Morgan: http://realestateandhousing2.blogspot.com/

He might not be on point all the time, but we need to end bailouts now. Financing the bad debt of corrupt institutions on the credit card of the American people, payable to China and Saudi Arabia does nothing but exacerbate situation for the next generation.

9/15/2008 11:15:30 AM

Quote :

"pay more attention to what exactly happens when the legislative branch deregulates a key part of our economic structure "

True.

We should've stopped the gov't from pressuring banks to stop red-lining loans. By forcing banks to issue loans to people who didn't qualify, the gov't helped create this volatile situation.

Politicians got a lot of goodwill for telling voters that they forced banks to give home loans to the poor and minorities...but the unintended consequences of this feel-good policy are now taking effect.

9/15/2008 11:16:59 AM

its not deregulation if you buyout failures.

The idea of deregulation is that the market will self-regulate. The benefit being less government involvement costs the tax payers less and saves companies money. The downside being when a company fucks up bad they disapear. Thats fine though because companies will realize what they did was a bad idea and not do it again.

What we have now is deregulation + buyouts. Its the worst fucking possible thing. Companies are free to do what they want, and when they fail we pay for it. This encourages reckless behavior because they know the fed will bail them out.

So you have two options. Get rid of government bailouts, or regulate and socialize. The former offers more flexibility and lower costs for the market, but also higher risk. The later of course, is the opposite. Less risk, less flexibility, higher costs. I think as long as the banks carry all of the risk, deregulation is the way to go. When a business fails, the economy will hurt for a while, but then recover as stronger businesses take over. Everyone learns from the mistakes and we carry on.

Right now we're so completely fucked because not only did these banks fail, but its sucking up taxes. If it weren't for the bailouts, only the banking sector would be affected. But the fed decided to drag us all down by commiting our tax dollars.

We will recover eventually, but not as quickly as we would have if the government had just let them die.

9/15/2008 11:25:17 AM

earthdogg - pull your fucking head out of your libertarian ass.
You have to be in*fucking*sane to think that the current situation was caused by too much government meddling.

the government was "Forcing banks to issue loans to unqualified people"?
My ass - how about, giving loans to unqualified people, then passing those loans up the ladder like a hot potato, just hoping not to be the ones stuck with it when the music stops.

9/15/2008 1:06:03 PM

If federal meddling required that you give loans to unqualified people wouldn't you do everything you could to get rid of that loan?

9/15/2008 1:37:34 PM

Quote :

"We should've stopped the gov't from pressuring banks to stop red-lining loans. By forcing banks to issue loans to people who didn't qualify, the gov't helped create this volatile situation. Politicians got a lot of goodwill for telling voters that they forced banks to give home loans to the poor and minorities...but the unintended consequences of this feel-good policy are now taking effect."

bingo. we have a winner.

9/15/2008 1:42:25 PM

bingo, we have an idiot.
make that, two idiots.

two ideologically-blinded idiots

9/15/2008 1:48:46 PM

i'm sure we make a lot more $$$$$ and don't give a shit about your asshat opinions on socialism either.

9/15/2008 1:54:52 PM

oh, what's this about socialism? You mean, like the government bailing out investment banks and outright buying mortgage companies so the government ends up owning over 1/2 of the houses in the country?
That kind of socialism? Yeah, i love it. it's great

9/15/2008 2:10:17 PM

Privatize the profits
Socialize the losses

go USA

9/15/2008 2:13:09 PM

The rich can get richer, the poor can stay poorer.

9/15/2008 2:19:49 PM

Quote :

"The rich can get richer, the poor can stay poorer. "

ah, the classic line from the lazy.

9/15/2008 2:30:32 PM

Quote :

"ah, the classic line from the astute lazy"

9/15/2008 2:33:50 PM

^ SO you're telling me something magically happened in the 80s that caused rich people to stop being lazy, and poorer people to start being MORE lazy?

9/15/2008 2:36:29 PM

“The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest”
-Albert Einstein

9/15/2008 2:43:57 PM

^^your talking to eyedrb right?

im agreeing that the gap has increased

[Edited on September 15, 2008 at 2:45 PM. Reason : ^^?]

9/15/2008 2:44:00 PM

what is along your Y axis moron?


How come you libs are against bailing out coorporations from thier bad decisions but all for it on welfare? There NEEDS to be consequences for bad decisions. When there isnt you get MORE bad decisions and bigger problems down the line.

9/15/2008 4:04:56 PM

i think you really overestimate the amount of government welfare the average liberal is for. It makes for good talking points, but no liberal that I know actually supports the kind of wealth distribution you conservatives claim we are for

9/15/2008 4:18:15 PM

hahah, because only robbing someone for half thier money makes the act ok. got it.

9/15/2008 4:38:40 PM

I support common sense solutions to massive problems. Bailing out reckless financial institutions is not the solution to a massive economic crisis. If holding these groups liable for their colossal mistakes and refusing to accept the current administration’s free-market approach to the banking industry makes me a liberal, then so be it. Why is it that a single mother working three jobs doesn't get her ass wiped with a golden blanket even though her struggle is obviously direr than some douche bags third trust fund not being replenished? Welfare is society's way of recognizing its own failure of helping the poor and corporate bailouts are the government's way of admitting their preferential treatment to the almighty buck. Eliminating welfare would only be acceptable in America if all corporate bailouts ceased to occur. Otherwise, grow a pair and deal with reality.

9/15/2008 4:43:58 PM

Lowering the capital gains tax allows people to move their money around without consequence. Less investing and more day trading. I've been saying it for years. This was a horribly stupid move by Bush.

9/15/2008 4:45:40 PM

It's clear what we need: Another stimulus package. Yes, we need to print more money out of thin air to give to Wal-mart and its buddies

9/15/2008 6:44:16 PM

i have another idea. while we are at it, let's ban oil drilling altogether.

b/c we need oil right? well then let's just pay for it all from the saudis b/c they are our friends and let's not get any from here!

9/15/2008 7:15:54 PM

Quote :

"Lowering the capital gains tax allows people to move their money around without consequence. Less investing and more day trading. I've been saying it for years."

How is the above necessarily bad?

9/15/2008 7:30:26 PM

Quote :

"Why is it that a single mother working three jobs doesn't get her ass wiped with a golden blanket even though her struggle is obviously direr than some douche bags third trust fund not being replenished? "

Because she doesn't deserve someone elses money anymore than anyone else.

Quote :

" Eliminating welfare would only be acceptable in America if all corporate bailouts ceased to occur. Otherwise, grow a pair and deal with reality."

I don't think anyone here who has spoken out against welfare has been keen on corporate welfare either, unless you count cutting tax rates as welfare.

Quote :

"Lowering the capital gains tax allows people to move their money around without consequence. Less investing and more day trading. I've been saying it for years. This was a horribly stupid move by Bush."

You do realize you pay capital gains regardless of whether you trade now or in 10 years right? Besides, why should there be any consequence for moving your money other than the cost of doing business? If I decide I no longer have faith in company X and would rather invest in company Y, what business is that of the government's and why should I be penalized for that?

9/15/2008 7:36:06 PM

Quote :

"We should've stopped the gov't from pressuring banks to stop red-lining loans. By forcing banks to issue loans to people who didn't qualify, the gov't helped create this volatile situation. Politicians got a lot of goodwill for telling voters that they forced banks to give home loans to the poor and minorities...but the unintended consequences of this feel-good policy are now taking effect."

WOW, not that i support democratic liberal socialist policies but I must say you must really have your head in the sand
and blinded by partisan fervor to ACTUALLY find some way to pin the housing boom on the democrats.

This is a hooksaw caliber of idiotic reasoning.

In my opinion this is just the free market working. The federal bail out of bear starnes is a sad example of our
supposedly conservative administration providing corporate welfare.

Quote :

"Privatize the profits Socialize the losses go USA #1"

Quote :

"The rich can get richer, the poor can stay poorer. "

Tis the job of the gov't to ensure people can not simply be lazy and just live off the hard work of society. Likewise
is also the gov't job to ensure no person or corporation through anti-competitive actions can corner the market or
take advantage of the average citizen.

While Stimwalt's comment is not entirly true it is not entirely false either. Unfortuantly its the the rich getting richer; its the
super rich top .01%. I can dig out the article but I read a report on how even the classical "rich" are getting left behind, along w/ the middle/working/poor,
by the upper elites in society.

Quote :

"Why is it that a single mother working three jobs doesn't get her ass wiped with a golden blanket even though her struggle is obviously direr than some douche bags third trust fund not being replenished"

The answer is obvious. SHE DID NOT EARN IT!!!!! Perhaps she should have thought first before getting pregnant three times out of wedlock.
Get pregnant knowing she can't afford to have children. GET A JOB if she lacks one. Should not have dropped out of high school. Or accept
the fact that she does not have that much intelligence and accept her simple lifestyle. Realize that she does not have the right to new Chevy or $200 cable bill when she needs
to use that money for essentials or health insurance.

The constitution guarantees the right to pursue happiness; not to have a litter of kids who are supported by the tax payer.

9/15/2008 8:26:36 PM

Because when you can move your money around so easily, there's less incentive to invest in a company wisely. You get a bunch of movers and shakers looking for a quick profit which is not what the stock market is there for. There's certainly nothing wrong with making money from the stock market, but when you get too many people trying to day trade it creates a lot of volatility with unwise investing. The point of the stock market is supposed to be invest wisely in a company you like and stick with it for awhile collecting dividends.

9/15/2008 8:31:47 PM