Warning: Words. Lots of them.

Quote :

"Crumbling domestic infrastructure. A bored, undisciplined population, demanding ever more wasteful and outrageous entertainments. Production exported to less developed countries, who then demand a share of the productivity. Rampant inflation eroding purchasing power."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXGGm4GQAq4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTGNgS1toEU&feature=related

Think about the comparisons between present day America and the catalysts that contributed to the sluggish collapse of Rome. Imagine a bleaker America, years in the future, and consider how America is suffering from the same early signs that led to Rome’s eventual downfall. A simplistic illustration of the primary parallels between America and Rome include the following; the decline in ethical principles abroad and at home, the increase of political lack of disrespect at home and abroad, the unpopular support of an arrogant military residing and occupying hostile distant lands. All of these elements entangled with the economic unreliability of the central government blocked Rome from escaping the downward spiral that is still absurdly accredited to invading barbarians today. Rome failed because of Rome itself, not because of barbarians. The underlying causes of the collapse of Rome remain very controversial, but barbarian invasions certainly do not sufficiently explain why Rome became unsustainable.

America’s economic philosophy has led us towards an exponential international debt. Accepting the fact that health care expenses are growing, that savings rates and social security are crippled, and that our dependence on foreign lenders are rigid at best, no one should misunderstand the extreme economic crisis that we face. Our current philosophy in regards to the environment, energy, education, immigration, and Iraq are truthfully not working. We must make our financial system and our culture our highest priorities to stabilize America. Fear not, this crisis can be averted. Our only goal should be to halt our mistakes now before the impending dooms that destroyed Rome become American’s inescapable reality that inexplicably resembles history repeating itself.

We must leave Iraq, settle our debts, focus on the homeland, heal our international relations, regulate our financial system, re-establish our identity, and do it immediately.

A 700 Billion government bailout off the backs of taxpayers should make Americans question America.

Thoughts?

[Edited on September 23, 2008 at 9:11 PM. Reason : -]

9/23/2008 9:10:37 PM

Quote :

"The underlying causes of the collapse of Rome remain very controversial, but barbarian invasions certainly do not sufficiently explain why Rome became unsustainable."

you try to administer that empire with only horse and sail power and get back to me on how well that works out

9/23/2008 9:14:00 PM

and trying to defend an empire which spanned the known world with an army of around 500,000 that had to march every where with no instant communication

9/23/2008 9:17:38 PM

you are right me friend. i read book on rone and rome had financil trouble like America. inside outsie trouble well pressure on rome. Rome also invade by outsider, no war, outsider citizen who not care for Rome. like illegal do America.

America has no way out debt if gov help. the only wat is Amero because dollar bill will to worthless.

9/23/2008 9:26:56 PM

The Amero, huh? I haven't heard anyone suggest that in a while.

9/23/2008 9:34:21 PM

I was gonna post in one of these economy threads that I have been seeing various bloggers discuss about the decline of the American empire. I wonder, does this kind of talk pop up during major issues like we are facing only to go away when the crisis passes, or is this current round of doomsday scenarios legit, real, and new?

9/23/2008 9:37:31 PM

Rome did not fall. It was a gradual, cultural transition resulting from "barbarian" immigration.

In this respect, America is a lot like Rome. In 2000 years, our children will be sporting large hats and taco taste buds.



[Edited on September 23, 2008 at 9:40 PM. Reason : sombraro ]

9/23/2008 9:38:13 PM

^ Yes and no. It's a new mestizaje, with most of the world involved.

9/23/2008 9:43:31 PM

USA #1

9/23/2008 10:56:51 PM

^ i cannot fucking take you posting that shit any more.

9/23/2008 11:01:02 PM

Quote :

"In 2000 years, our children will be sporting large hats and taco taste buds. "

Personally I wouldn't mind too badly if my decedents were Australian. In fact, they'd probably lead happier, better, free-er lives in the long-term.

9/23/2008 11:12:12 PM

Huh? Australian? Where did that come from?

To back up my earlier claim, the US Asian population should increase about as quickly as the Hispanic population.

[Edited on September 23, 2008 at 11:20 PM. Reason : claim]

9/23/2008 11:20:39 PM

^It's similar to America, only people in general are less willing to give up their liberties so politicians can make them feel warm inside.

9/23/2008 11:42:45 PM

I'm still not seeing the connection. Socks posts about growing Mexican influence in the US, and you respond by promoting Australia. Then you explain this by opposition to giving up liberties. Are Mexicans particularly likely to renounce freedoms?

By the way, I just noticed that Socks wrote 2,000 years. Now I'm really confused.

9/23/2008 11:47:38 PM

I wasn't trying to make a concrete point, really just mentioning the fact that in 2000 years, being American probably won't be the best life available. The way I see it, Australia very well could be.

As for the liberties comment, it wasn't so much in reference to the mexican thing as it was in reference to the seemingly-inescapable "big government" political slant of America in general. This thread is about the future of this country after all.

9/23/2008 11:55:46 PM

The world will be entirely different in two thousand years. Unlike the Romans, we have exponentially accelerating technological progress.

You'll be seeing plenty more Mexicans in the next fifty.

9/24/2008 12:00:35 AM

Furthermore, all the Roman men had smoking hot gladiator bodies.

The US not so much.

9/24/2008 12:07:11 AM

meh, I'd say the US is heading for the same fate as Rome. Massively expanding expenditures with no end in sight and no way to pay for them.

9/24/2008 12:08:52 AM

Quote :

"The world will be entirely different in two thousand years."

Yeah, no-brainer. For one thing, we might blow it up by then (again, Australia could be a great place to be). Or, possibly, we could all end up getting hooked up to the big-brother government machine and socialized for the public good (despite personal detriment). Or, possibly, a disease appears that spreads rapidly only amongst rich, fat, old, lazy assholes, and our political system experiences total reform, and the only "big-government" left in the world exists to maintain peace and prevent violent crime, leaving people to govern themselves through smaller local and state organizations.

But it's all total guesswork. As I've said, I'd take a gamble on Australia.

Quote :

"Unlike the Romans, we have exponentially accelerating technological progress. "

Yeah, but frankly I don't see what that's going to do to solve the problem of a deeply-embedded two party institution that is not only supported and strengthened by a system it creates, but by the nature of idiocy itself.

Quote :

"You'll be seeing plenty more Mexicans in the next fifty."

Unless of course America adopts a policy I've been wanting it to take for years... stop trying to "combat" illegal immigration at home, and start trying to fix the problem at the source... put pressure on the Mexican government to help its citizens living in total poverty and corruption on the border. And encourage other nations to do the same. Promote free trade across those borders as well. Improve their lives at home so they don't have to leave their lives behind.

9/24/2008 12:14:51 AM

The downfall of Rome came from the top. Emperor Constantine essentially killed Old Rome by moving the capital east and leaving the west to be ruled by the Church. Keep in mind that the eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire) persisted for 2,000 more years. Unless a US president invades Canada, sets up a new capital and leaves Washington in the hands of the Baptist Church then I don't see the end parallels. Also, look at how Rome has persisted throughout history. Not only with the previously mentioned Byzantine Empire but also the Holy Roman Empire. Both the ruling titles of Czar and Kaiser come from the derivative Caesar. And I am sure most of you learned from civics class how we here in the US borrowed from Rome when setting up our government. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

9/24/2008 12:19:31 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, but frankly I don't see what that's going to do to solve the problem of a deeply-embedded two party institution that is not only supported and strengthened by a system it creates, but by the nature of idiocy itself."

Technology can solve all those problems. Wild transhumanism aside, it would be premature to speculate on our political system enduring two thousand years. How long as this country been around?

9/24/2008 12:23:35 AM

Quote :

" it would be premature to speculate on our political system enduring two thousand years."

I'm not speculating that system will endure for 2000 years, I'm speculating that it will cause the "destruction" (quotes indicate loose term usage) of America.

9/24/2008 12:28:52 AM

Quote :

"Keep in mind that the eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire) persisted for 2,000 more years."

wait. Constantine came after Christ, which we'll designate as 0AD for shits and giggles (Christ's time). The Byzantine empire fell in the 1400s. soooooooo. how did the byzantine empire persist for "2,000 more years?"

9/24/2008 12:33:23 AM

Hopefully he meant 1000 years.

Or maybe he meant Rome lasted 2000 years (~500 BC to 1453)

Quote :

"^It's similar to America, only people in general are less willing to give up their liberties so politicians can make them feel warm inside."

Australia's government censors and bans more media than probably any other "western" nation.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 12:40 AM. Reason : ]

9/24/2008 12:39:13 AM

America could be Rome, but it doesn't have to be.

The only reason history, historically, repeats itself is because people let it. Humans are notorious for not learning from past mistakes on a large scale, just as this mortgage crisis perfectly represents.

But I also think society in general is becoming smarter, and particularly with the internet and computers holding MASSIVE amounts of unprecedented empirical data on humanity, analyzing points of failure and correcting and anticipating them is becoming easier.

So history might repeat itself, but it SHOULD be easy to stave off if we are pro-active in doing so. And if worse came to worse, we could just start nuking people indiscriminately to maintain our way of life (which is practically the approach Republicans seem to have resigned to already).

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 1:02 AM. Reason : ]

9/24/2008 1:01:17 AM

^ We'd better get missile defenses before pursuing that last option.

9/24/2008 1:09:49 AM

^ we have it, they're just not going to tell you about it.

In any case, the countries with capable missiles would easily be able to design them to out-smart our missile defense shield. At the very least just by firing multiple missiles at once, whether real or decoys.

From my estimation, the primary purpose of the missile defense shield is as a shell project to fund other technologies, with the missile defense technology washing out as a symbol of our power to lesser countries, while saving at least some lives in the worst case scenario. But it won't completely protect us in the event we actually had to use it.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 1:12 AM. Reason : ]

9/24/2008 1:11:23 AM

At the moment, maybe. Eventually, missile defenses could become nearly impenetrable.

9/24/2008 1:13:47 AM

^It's a constant cycle of development... you build a better shield and people will just make better swords.

9/24/2008 1:25:54 AM

Yeah yeah, should be 1,000 years. It was a quick write up without proofreading.

Since we're making comparisons one could argue the lead contaminated water in Rome that likely caused a whole host of problems is similar to the pollutants and toxins we are readily dumping into both our air and water supplies. Something tells me though that had the Romans been aware of their peril they would have engineered a way out of it. The alarming thing is that we know what we are doing to ourselves yet somehow allow it.

9/24/2008 2:43:35 AM

A lot of the comparisons between modern America and Rome could be made using 1920's America. A decadent, bored, disenchanted populace demanding frivolous entertainment while letting the foundations of their economy go to shit...sounds similar to several of the things in the OP. Where the 1920's doesn't work, the 1960's suffice:

Quote :

"the decline in ethical principles abroad and at home, the increase of political lack of disrespect at home and abroad, the unpopular support of an arrogant military residing and occupying hostile distant lands."

Again, sounds awfully familiar. And there's plenty of other times in the history of America and a smattering of other countries where the same can be said -- they ran into all these parallels with ancient Rome, and managed not to collapse. Generally they managed to prosper.

Quote :

"Our current philosophy in regards to the environment, energy, education, immigration, and Iraq are truthfully not working."

These are pretty much in no way relevant to any Rome comparison. They may well be big problems, but they don't have anything to do with the thread you yourself created, unless the depth of your comparison is "Rome made mistakes and we also make mistakes."

Also, as HockeyRoman pointed out, the Roman empire did, in a very meaningful way, continue until nearly 1500 AD. And when it did finally collapse, outside invasions did have a huge part in it, as did disease.

9/24/2008 3:47:04 AM

hahahahah 2000 more years

oh man

personally, i am expecting the end of life as we currently know it to come at least by the end of my children's lives...if not sooner

9/24/2008 8:30:45 AM

Obama if just one man but represen a cause much greater in spirit that of a single soul. there are those who would read Moreuspend him terminate him and even ban anyone associated to him but alas... he cannot be undone. as long as the hearts and the minds if the people are with him the love will sustain him for eternity. now if the moment to show all the true meaning of Obama. Obama for President. him unity the world not just America.

9/24/2008 10:44:27 AM

reading this guy makes my head hurt

9/24/2008 10:51:39 AM

Quote :

"Our current philosophy in regards to the environment, energy, education, immigration, and Iraq are truthfully not working."

"These are pretty much in no way relevant to any Rome comparison. They may well be big problems, but they don't have anything to do with the thread you yourself created, unless the depth of your comparison is "Rome made mistakes and we also make mistakes."

This comment was dervied outside the scope of the Rome comparison, and was simply me addressing the modern mistakes that obviously cannot be directly attributed to ancient Rome. Keep in mind, I'm not writing a research paper here, this was all stream of consciousness on my part and was based on my personal opinion. Certain aspects of modern day America could be linked to ancient Rome in theory, but the parellels would be weak and a real stretch.

The intended focus of this thread is to address the threats that face America today and the comparisions of the underlying causes that faced Rome and currently face America.

Quote :

"Also, as HockeyRoman pointed out, the Roman empire did, in a very meaningful way, continue until nearly 1500 AD. And when it did finally collapse, outside invasions did have a huge part in it, as did disease."

Rome was not built in a day and likewise did not fall in a day. I was commenting on the popularized collective wisdom and/or misconception in regards to barbarian invasions playing a major role. I am not stating that barbarians played absolutely no role. The biggest factor involved Rome's foolish over-expansion and over-extension of their military abroad, which has been heavily attributed to Rome's eventual demise.

Quote :

"Think about the comparisons between present day America and the catalysts that contributed to the sluggish collapse of Rome"

Also, please watch the videos first to reduce redundancy. I am more interested in points that refute the apparent underlying comparisions. Anything that resembles my opinion is probably just that.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 11:50 AM. Reason : -]

9/24/2008 11:40:02 AM

Leroy English, motherfucker! Can you type it?

Get some spellcheck dawg.

9/24/2008 11:42:01 AM

he's korean

9/24/2008 1:52:01 PM

I am actually seeing more parallels between the issues for the leadup to the French Revolution (basically, bad monetary policy) and our current situation.

9/24/2008 1:53:27 PM

French revolutions ver diffierent. partie split up in secretsy plot to over turn gov. very alot if censorship that go on. verry diffenent from American politics. im compare to Rome better. foreign issue domestic issue econmic all same. so you pretty wrong my friend.

9/24/2008 3:53:37 PM

Engrish?

9/24/2008 3:55:03 PM

if you no talk man. why talk insult? American from kid learn to talk insult why no be nice? not like in Korean. we learm respect discipline honor integrity in young age. that what wrong with you.

9/24/2008 4:03:54 PM

Dude, you are so not Korean; if anything your continued, bad impression of Koreans is insulting to me, both as an ethnic Korean and an American. I don't know who you are, but even your supposedly FOB English isn't even Korean style. I've edited more than enough papers and interacted with more than enough Koreans in Korea to know that your "bad English" style is bogus, especially for a supposedly "high educated" Korean you claim to be. You're not even making the typical mistakes that most Koreans who are half decent in English make. Which university did you come out of again? Where in Korea are you from? Which high school did you go to?

As for the topic at hand:

The "decline in ethnical principles" is a bit of a tricky argument. There are a large number of historians who would argue that the factor not a cause of the fall of Rome. Afterall, if moral decay was the rot that killed the Empire, then why did it not impact the Byzantine Empire which many would consider even more decadent and in some ways faced even greater threats? Also, in drawing parallels with the United States, which ethnical principles do you feel are on decline in the United States? Patriotism? Christian morality? Capitalist zeal? Respect for other nations? Democratic vigor? I'm curious.

You can't dismiss the barbarians outright either. The barbarians grew both technologically and politically, learning a range of skills from iron working through military techniques from the Romans themselves. The barbarians the Romans faced in the fifth century was a very different breed from the ones they overran throughout their earlier history.

As for the arrogant military occupying hostile lands, doesn't that pretty much cover the near entirety of Roman history from the moment the legions pushed outside of Rome? I don't remember anything in the history books about Gaul welcoming Roman soldiers with flowers.

I suppose you do have a case though in one broad sense: Rome's problems grew beyond what their system of government could handle. Their political system was stressed and led to continuous civil wars and the loss of central authority. Meanwhile, their enemies, whether the germanic tribes of the North, the Huns of the plains, or the Persians to the east grew in sophistication while their military stagnated. Demographic shifts caused havoc in the western provinces, decimating their economy. Half of their empire managed to adapt but not fast enough to save the other half. Certainly the United States is facing a series of vexing problems, but I don't think any of them are serious enough to threaten the very existence of our Republic. Sure, it probably symbolizes the end of American supremacy across the globe, but it hardly represents the end of the United States.

9/24/2008 4:12:49 PM

ethical. not ethnical

9/24/2008 4:18:53 PM

patronize me if im representative of all Korea. all koreans to make same mistake? im life here for 3 months. you not Korea!!! im am full Korean. im went DongSeo University. Daewon highschool. what school did you go? im study in 4 different countyr. have you ever go to Korea?

im self teach american language. i train computers if American top engenirs.

[Edited on September 24, 2008 at 4:25 PM. Reason : /]

9/24/2008 4:23:08 PM

The "Barbarians" really have some bad PR people, they were never really as uncivilized as they are depicted. They lived differently than the Romans, to be sure, they didn't have nearly as much in the way of great civil engineering, but they still had a highly advanced culture and military technology on par with, although not to the scale of, the Romans.


In fact, many of the most Iconic weapons of the Roman legionnaire were taken from Barbarians. The Gladius was originally a weapon of the Iberian natives, the helmet was taken from the Gauls, the Spatha (later sword, longer than Gladius) was inspired by Celtic weapons, and even Chain mail was originally invented by "barbarians" and later used by Rome.

9/24/2008 4:35:05 PM

Iran maybe half crazy president. he is right about American issue. along with rest of world.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/09/23/ahmadinejad.us/index.html

American if lose sovergnthy as nation slowly. you country if sold out in pieces because there if no way out of debt.it will try to glabalize debt for option.

barbarian did not defeat rome. no army in world could defeet rome legion. Rone collaps if inside like American. Rome could no long support the legion. barbarian were weak no match for Rome Rome surrener . you no read hitsory man.

9/24/2008 4:38:42 PM

Quote :

"patronize me if im representative of all Korea. all koreans to make same mistake?"

No, but because of the way the Korean language is structured, when a Korean speaker learns English, there is a pretty typical collection of errors that they make. I'm not a language expert, but having spent time in Korea editing academic papers and teaching English, I'd say I have a pretty decent grasp on the types of mistakes that are commonly made.

Quote :

" im life here for 3 months. you not Korea!!! im am full Korean. im went DongSeo University. Daewon highschool. what school did you go? im study in 4 different countyr. have you ever go to Korea? im self teach american language. i train computers if American top engenirs."

See, that's what gets me. Your spelling errors for example, it's not just that they're bad but that they're so unusual, it looks deliberate. Your use of "im" is unusual as well given that the contraction "I'm" is not commonly used in the typical Korean curriculum yet here you are, repeating it over and over and using it incorrectly. Your capitalization is inconsistent in a strange way as well. Why do you capitalize the Seo character in DongSeo yet leave Daewon uncapitalized. The fact that you used the term "american language" is very strange as well given that almost no one overseas ever uses that or would even be familiar with that common American error.

I would hardly call Dongseo-dae a prestigious university as you so claim. Also, for someone who went to a school like Daewon to leave Seoul to attend a small school down in Busan is in and of itself rather unusual.

Perhaps the final thing that does it for me is that when I first looked at your profile a few days ago, it clearly listed your name as "Leroy Jenkins" with a pretty coherently written profile which to suddenly change to a Korean one with supposedly bad grammar and almost no familiarity with the United States makes me a bit suspicious as well.

No matter, I'm going to stop feeding the troll; I find this thread pretty entertaining.

9/24/2008 6:06:35 PM

game set pwn

9/24/2008 6:19:01 PM

im never made my name leroy Jenkins. where you go school if youm Korean? Dongseo is top school im Korea. agree? you dont know Korean then. ver much people come to Daewon to get english credit for top American University princeton harvard all top school.

9/24/2008 6:22:09 PM

(Sorry about your thread Stimwalt, I was actually really interested in the topic, but I have to put an end to this)

The fact that you would even claim Dongseo, a small, second-tier Christian university, as a top school in Korea without any caveats indicates to me that you have no idea about the Korean university system or that you take me for a complete idiot.

Besides, if someone was truly Princeton or Harvard bound from Korea and lived in Seoul, they could take easily take English courses at one of the top Korean schools or more likely at a hakwon. Why leave Seoul to go take English classes at a small school in the periphery? Its like me going from Raleigh to Liberty University to take Japanese classes in preparation for study abroad.

Also, if you truly were a graduate student in the United States, you would have gone through TOEFL, GRE, and years of rigorous English language classes, especially if you claim to come out of a high school that specialized in them. Yes, Korea's English language training isn't the best, but you wouldn't be making mistakes this far off.

The fact that you also use the term "Southern Korea" is bizarre too. I've never heard any Korean who used "Southern" to describe the ROK.

For the record, I worked for an lab at SNU. Are you familiar with it?

9/24/2008 6:49:29 PM