This evening I watched Constantine's Sword at UNM, by itself a rather standard documentary that traced the history of conflict between Christians and Jews. Mikey Weinstein, a former Air Force officer featured in the film, spoke afterword. He alleges evangelical influence throughout the military, creating a hostile environment for other faiths, violating the Constitution, and pushing the country toward theocracy. His children have personally experienced the problem, with superiors insulting their religion and blaming them for the death of Jesus Christ.

The information shocked me. I had no idea this sort of thing was happening. I'd always shrugged at the charge that American was waging a holy war and whatnot. I thought of the religious right as primarily affecting civilian issues, not the armed forces. I'm a bit scared.

Links for more information:

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/12/13/weinstein/

10/7/2008 12:14:27 AM

[old] as green eggs and ham

10/7/2008 12:16:02 AM

Yeah, but it's [new] to me. And Weinstein's struggle continues, as he made clear.

10/7/2008 12:24:38 AM

Jewish people always need a Nazi or Hitler figure to take attention away from their hypocrisy. I bet he even supports Israel; the most racist nation on Earth.

10/7/2008 12:32:29 AM

please explain this hypocrisy rainman

10/7/2008 12:36:05 AM

Okay, from personal experience, I never saw any sort of anti-semitic behavoir and/or statements from anyone in the military, especially not any officers. In fact, from my experience, most have more positive views towards judaism than the average American. I think a lot of this is due to admiration of the Israeli military and a sense of a common enemy, though is is stretching it a bit. Hell, most evangelicals now a days have moved away from the antisemitism of the past, not to mention that Protestant/Evangelical's have always been much less antisemitic than Catholics... and they all support Israel now, because many believe it must exist for the return of Christ. Having said that, their is a strong evangelical movement in the military, or at least the Army. But other religions are not looked down upon, or discriminated against.

However, if you are an atheist it is a completely different story, and be prepared to be ostracized, looked down upon, etc.

10/7/2008 12:41:31 AM

i never did either in my military experience

10/7/2008 12:43:34 AM

^^^^ That's exactly the kind of response I was fearing. Come on. It's not all about Israel.

Antisemitism isn't a joke. Weinstein receives regular death threats. His house has been vandalized repeatedly. Folks burned a church after he spoke there. (I can hardly believe this. What's with people?)

[Edited on October 7, 2008 at 12:45 AM. Reason : ^^]

10/7/2008 12:45:36 AM

I find this funny given that a buddy of mine in Iraq, an conservative Evangelical of the PCA strain, regularly talked about the lack of any decent spiritual support out in the field and how he had so few other Christians to talk and fellowship with in his unit.

10/7/2008 1:01:28 AM

the us armed forces are at their lowest suicide rate ever

10/7/2008 1:09:55 AM

Are there bigots in the armed forces? Yes.

Is there systemic bigotry in the armed forces? I would have to say "No."

It wasn't clear from what I read who insulted Weinstein's kids, or under what circumstances. But absolute, no-holds-barred shit-talking is part of military training and culture. It doesn't have anything to do with anything. Every despicable thing that you can be called, you generally will be called, either by immediate superiors or others at your level. It's a motivational tool. It's never been PC, and it's never going to be PC, and frankly, trying to make it PC isn't going to do anybody any good. Part of the whole point is to weed out people who can't take emotional stress. If you can take it, you realize that it is very often intended with no sincerity, and that the kind of people who do mean it sincerely are probably too stupid to advance through the ranks.

Those same stupid people are almost certainly the ones who vandalized the guy's home and made death threats. There are stupid people everywhere, but the military attracts the kind of stupid people who want to act out their stupidity in a visible way. It's unfortunate, but unavoidable if you want to have a functioning military (and I realize you don't, Viper, don't, but for the sake of argument).

10/7/2008 2:36:36 AM

There's also pretty major intolerance towards the non-religious. It's not just a problem that other religious people have. In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that atheists catch more shit than most non-christian religious people.

[Edited on October 7, 2008 at 3:30 AM. Reason : ]

10/7/2008 3:29:52 AM

Quote :

"However, if you are an atheist it is a completely different story, and be prepared to be ostracized, looked down upon, etc."

yeah, there was a big story last year about an atheist who says he was denied promotion and was threatened because he was an atheist

http://www2.ljworld.com/blogs/faith_files/2007/dec/18/religious_freedom/
http://www.maaf.info/
http://friendlyatheist.com/1614/heroes/

10/7/2008 7:51:49 AM

I take it back. Atheists are cool.

[Edited on October 7, 2008 at 8:10 AM. Reason : sss]

10/7/2008 8:10:02 AM

Quote :

"Religious Intolerance in the US Military World"

10/7/2008 8:10:18 AM

But it is there fault Jesus died, AMIRITE?!?

10/7/2008 8:34:01 AM

have you seen Full Metal Jacket?

people in the military are fuckin mean.

its like middle school but with guns.

10/7/2008 8:49:53 AM

The places where the most allegations of systematic religious discrimination seem to be coming from are the military colleges like West Point. Even in these places though it takes the form more of hazing from fellow students than it does some conspiracy of the organization itself. That is not to say that these intolerant individuals don't become officers and teachers themselves though. Atheists are, as mentioned earlier, the worse off by far in terms of persecution within the military.

Does this mean you are less likely to get a promotion or to have many friends if you hold an unpopular religious view point? Yes. Does it mean you can not succeed in the military if you hold those unpopular beliefs? Of course not. The military is in desperate need of people with technical and leadership abilities. If you're a nuclear engineer who's an atheist, you'd still be recruited just as hard as a guy with a crucifix tattoo and be made an officer just as fast.

Of course the kind of persecution and discrimination experienced by religious minorities and atheists is wrong; it's also probably unavoidable to some extent. Any systematic or organized discrimination should be dealt with harshly since, in addition to being unconstitutional, it is a danger to national security. In a time when our military is stretched thin, we can't have extremists scaring away non-christians with vital skills right? Bigotry is something that religious minorities such as myself have to deal with as a fact of life. You can't really eliminate it with reforms. I doubt it would last all that long on the front lines though; who fucking cares if someone prays when you have to worry about people shooting at you.

10/7/2008 9:34:56 AM

i'm not answering this questions because I might want a job in the military and I think they might be watching over my shoulder

10/7/2008 9:52:45 AM

Quote :

"Any systematic or organized discrimination should be dealt with harshly since, in addition to being unconstitutional, it is a danger to national security. In a time when our military is stretched thin, we can't have extremists scaring away non-christians with vital skills right? Bigotry is something that religious minorities such as myself have to deal with as a fact of life. You can't really eliminate it with reforms. I doubt it would last all that long on the front lines though; who fucking cares if someone prays when you have to worry about people shooting at you."

Higher ups apparently don't care about the atheist situation either. That guy who was in the news talking about being discriminated against was threatened in Iraq. From what I recall the people in his "unit" or whatever hinted that they'd kill him while they were out in the field. He was taken out of Iraq because they "couldn't guarantee his safety." They refused to punish anyone who made threats from what the atheist was saying in the articles I read. So of course everyone sees that if they fuck with the atheist and threaten him, then he'll get sent away and they wont have to see him anymore. So now I figure they'll just do that shit every single time one comes around. There is an organization out there fighting religious intolerance of all kinds and they were representing him last I heard, but I don't remember the name of the organization.

Apparently some of these religious people are so fucked up that they'd purposely let their fellow soldier who happens to be an atheist die or would actively kill him because they don't think his life is worth living. It's kind of funny how super religious people think that atheists "have no morals" or "don't value life" when in reality it's the exact opposite. Atheists believe that this is their only life and that they wont be conscious after it ends. This makes them value life more than someone who thinks that their consciousness will continue even after they're dead (A ridiculous thought, how are you planning to be conscious without a brain?). As far as having no morals, people don't necessarily base their morals on the bible or any other text. "Morals" are a set of evolutionary traits that benefit our species and increase our chances of survival. Most sane people are born with a few general morals. In fact, the only time sane people seem to really go against these naturally given morals is when they do something in the name of religion.

For example, those people in the military having no problem with killing an atheist. They use their religion as an excuse to say that their morals don't have to apply when it comes to dealing with a non-believer. They'd be disgusted if anyone killed a christian simply because they didn't like him or her, but when it comes to an atheist they're willing to discard any morals because their religious text and their group of friends and family dehumanize such individual.

It's also pretty amazing to think that I saw a poll where people were asked whether or not they felt that atheists should have the same rights as other US citizens. The majority of people polled said "NO." A vast number of people in this country currently think that atheists should not have the same rights as religious citizens. The sad thing is that this country was founded with the notion that the government would not involve itself with religion. Then in the mid 20th century they changed all of this shit on government documents to mention god. Of course now many religious people blindly cite that shit as if it's something that the founders of the country put in place.

[Edited on October 7, 2008 at 10:47 AM. Reason : ]

10/7/2008 10:41:13 AM

Quote :

"It wasn't clear from what I read who insulted Weinstein's kids, or under what circumstances."

I'm not sure. But here's another case, which ended with a savage beating:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Army-Private-Subjected-to-by-Jason-Leopold-081002-421.html

Quote :

"But absolute, no-holds-barred shit-talking is part of military training and culture. It doesn't have anything to do with anything."

I figured that would be one response to the issue. (I'd like to see somebody say that to Weinstein in person. I know I don't have the balls to.) I find the idea of neutral and meaningless shit-talking either laughably naive or cynically self-serving. The practice is bound support dominant views. No way in hell militarily folks could transcend their identities. In such an environment, minorities are going to suffer more from the verbal abuse. I don't know about you, but I've had rare moments when the joking insults suddenly stopped being funny. That happens when I realize I'm the other, I'm different. It's easy to take crap when you're one of the gang. You can say that's acceptable, but you should at least acknowledge the inequality.

Quote :

"It's never been PC, and it's never going to be PC, and frankly, trying to make it PC isn't going to do anybody any good."

Well, when the shit-talking involves officers pushing religion on their subordinates, it violates the Constitution. In that sense, according to the country's founding document, it has to be PC. Beyond the slurs, Weinstein alleges that right-wing religion groups have infiltrated the military and want to convert everybody. Official showings of The Passion of the Christ and so on. If a Jewish cadet experiences all that in conjunction with the insults, I can see how he'd consider it restricting his religious freedom.

10/7/2008 12:01:41 PM

Quote :

"I'm not sure. But here's another case, which ended with a savage beating:"

It also ended with the Sergeants being punished for going too far and special courses being offered explaining what is and isn't allowed as far as religious attire with the uniform. It's also not clear from that article that the beatings had anything to do with him being Jewish.

Quote :

"The practice is bound support dominant views. No way in hell militarily folks could transcend their identities. In such an environment, minorities are going to suffer more from the verbal abuse. I don't know about you, but I've had rare moments when the joking insults suddenly stopped being funny."

I never said it was supposed to be funny. The whole idea is to break you down to the point that you can be rebuilt into this team. And while there are occasions that I'm sure dominant views of the trainers prevail, the general trend is that everyone is abused excessively and constantly. This, to such an extent that trying to say one person was insulted more than another gets to be fairly meaningless.

Quote :

"Well, when the shit-talking involves officers pushing religion on their subordinates, it violates the Constitution."

I agree. That's the kind of thing that can't be permitted. But I think with that you are looking at more isolated events and individuals, rather than an "evangelical coup" as Weinstein describes it.

Slurs and verbal abuse are very much a part of training and arguably do good in the long run to building unit cohesion -- you all have something in common in that you all got buried under mountains of shit-talk. Attempting to convert people, aside from being unconstitutional, is a waste of resources that is more likely to be divisive than anything else.

Quote :

"Weinstein alleges that right-wing religion groups have infiltrated the military and want to convert everybody. Official showings of The Passion of the Christ and so on."

Well, I don't know the details of this "Passion" issue, but in fairness it was a very successful mainstream film. If they were making people go see it I'd take issue, but if it's just available I don't mind.

As to this "infiltration," again, I think it misses the point that military service tends to attract certain religious stripes, including conservative Christians. Saying that right-wing religious people have infiltrated the military is like saying that fat people have infiltrated the line to Cinnabon.

10/7/2008 1:39:38 PM

I wouldn't say that there is a system of religious intolerance in the military. I would argue that there are a number of evangelicals in the military (actually just a small but vociferous minority) that occasionally make their way into high enough circles. Most people with more than two brain cells tries to shut them up when need be, lest the US lose face in Muslim countries.

Obviously, the evangelical beliefs are prevalent among the military chaplains, and they tend to attract a decent number to their cause. While I don't try to trivialize the contributions military chaplains have made to the US military (in the form of counseling, etc), a select few go too far. I once worked for a Lt. Col. who had mandatory involvement in the Officer Christian Fellowship, and also tried to pursue legal action against males and females (not in a sexual relationship) living together. Again, this is a very small minority of officers, but when you have that sort of absolute power and authority, one can see how it can quickly go to one's head.

10/7/2008 5:45:27 PM