This is what happens when you let lawyers run your show:

Quote :

"The European Union's first naval task force is due to arrive next month in the Gulf of Aden to combat the region's unprecedented piracy scourge, which is being fuelled by the demand for cash and weapons in lawless Somalia. Ten EU countries, including Britain, have pledged support for the force - yet they may find it difficult even to make an arrest. ... Somalia is a "failed state", Capt Beijo added, and the West fears that if the pirates were handed over to the Somali authorities they would be tortured or executed. ... Capt Breijo was reflecting the frustration felt by Europe's admiralty due to their restrictive rules of engagement. Modern European navies are now so mindful of the legal loopholes they face in tackling pirates that they often instruct commanders to simply let them go. After deciding pirates would not be successfully prosecuted if brought back to Europe, the Danish navy set free a crew of ten in September, dropping them off on a Somali beach after holding them for six days. The Royal Navy admits, unofficially, that it is under similar instructions. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/somalia/3363258/Pirates-protected-from-EU-task-force-by-human-rights.html

11/4/2008 9:17:57 AM

Yar!

11/4/2008 9:19:50 AM

The Somali pirates better hope they're not picked up by the Russians or the Chinese. I don't think they'll have problems with how to deal with pirates hitting their ships.

It was sloppy though: with their call for ships to combat piracy, the UN should have come to an agreement on what to do with captured pirates.

11/4/2008 9:21:16 AM

Did the crimes occur in Somalia or in international waters? I was under the (probably wrong) impression that if a crime occured in international waters the crime would be adjudicated in the country of the victim.

11/4/2008 9:23:04 AM

They should make the pirates walk the plank

11/4/2008 9:30:36 AM

Quote :

"Somalia is a "failed state", Capt Beijo added, and the West fears that if the pirates were handed over to the Somali authorities they would be tortured or executed."

What's wrong with that. Fair is fair. European pussies... they have gone to the other extreme.

In fact, this pisses me off to a very high degree. Just a few days ago, a 13 year old rape-victim girl was stoned to death in public in Somalia by the Islamist rebels after being accused of adultery.

The "West"? Where the fuck was the "West" then? How come the "West" doesn't come in to Africa and decimate all these rebels and warlords? What about Darfur, Zimbabwe, Congo, and the rest? Oh yeah, they don't have oil, do they? But the pirates... OH NOS WE CAN'T LET THEM BE EXECUTED... LET THEM GO!


[Edited on November 4, 2008 at 9:55 AM. Reason : ]

11/4/2008 9:50:56 AM

well, to be fair, we tried

11/4/2008 10:14:45 AM

Quote :

" The "West"? Where the fuck was the "West" then? How come the "West" doesn't come in to Africa and decimate all these rebels and warlords? What about Darfur, Zimbabwe, Congo, and the rest? Oh yeah, they don't have oil, do they? But the pirates... OH NOS WE CAN'T LET THEM BE EXECUTED... LET THEM GO! "

Get out of here. Fuck africa, they've had more time to evolve than the rest of the human race and they've still got pirates for christ's sake. Let them all off each other on that god-forsaken continent, why the hell should westerners go die because those idiots can't civilize themselves?

11/4/2008 10:31:09 AM

^ I think if you take a closer look a lot of Africa's problems were caused by the west.

Not necessarily saying it is the west's mess to clean up but it is hard to ignore some of the problems colonialism, mining, etc have caused.


Whenever I hear these stories about modern day pirates I always think of that scene in The Life Aquatic

11/4/2008 10:56:37 AM

It's those damn parachute pants! That's what's made the survey dogs untouchable.

11/4/2008 11:10:46 AM

Quote :

"I think if you take a closer look a lot of Africa's problems were caused by the west. "

gimme a fucking break.

they were throwing spears at gazelles, dying of cholera by age 30, and chilling in straw huts until Europeans brought many remote areas of Africa to the 20th century.

11/4/2008 11:20:08 AM

No you ignorant racist white-burden-believing fuck. There were several cosmopolitan civilizations in east as well as Sub-Saharan Africa.

http://wsu.edu/~dee/CIVAFRCA/CONTENTS.HTM

Yeah most of the landmass of Africa was covered by regions dominated by various tribes, but there were several very large, wealthy and developed cultures. The idea that the continent was home to just sick spear chucking savages is some racist bullshit notion you absorbed through some kind of sad racist osmosis. Feel like making up some other ancient history you know nothing about?

Hell, the Swahili Kingdoms developed a sort of corporate city state concept that exemplified a developed and complex capitalist system that took Europeans another 400 years to adopt.

[Edited on November 4, 2008 at 11:36 AM. Reason : ]

11/4/2008 11:31:27 AM

^^Yay, now they can slave all day in diamond mines and be subjected to systematic white oppression

20th century FTW


also cholera is a disease more indicative of crowded unsanitary slum conditions not hunting and gathering and subsistence farming.


Im not saying that all of the problems in Africa were directly caused by the west (and by west I dont necessarily mean America) but I dont think you can justify a lot of the things the west did there.

[Edited on November 4, 2008 at 11:35 AM. Reason : arrows]

11/4/2008 11:33:32 AM

^ last time i checked the blacks in Zimbabwe were subjugating the white minority groups there

Quote :

"No you ignorant racist white-burden-believing fuc"

oh man i'm so racist; i hope that obama guy i cast a vote for was full blooded anglo-saxon. I haven't heard much about the guy.....

11/4/2008 12:14:09 PM

my best Presidential nominee is black, im not a racist

11/4/2008 12:25:15 PM

Pirates should be killed on sight or capture. Preferably made to walk the plank.

11/4/2008 12:27:22 PM

Quote :

"Get out of here. Fuck africa, they've had more time to evolve than the rest of the human race and they've still got pirates for christ's sake. Let them all off each other on that god-forsaken continent, why the hell should westerners go die because those idiots can't civilize themselves?"

Obviously, you missed my point.

My post was obviously a jab at Bush's "We are helping the poor oppressed people of Iraq and relieved them of an evil dictator" policy.

Quote :

"Yay, now they can slave all day in diamond mines and be subjected to systematic white oppression"

WTF? Whites are oppressing Blacks in Africa?

Yeah, I guess that's what's happening in Congo, Somalia, Sudan, Eritrea, Zimbabwe, Liberia, Sierra Leone, etc.

11/4/2008 12:28:38 PM

Quote :

"Pirates should be killed on sight or capture. Preferably made to walk the plank."

I think a lot of them were hanged in colonial days. Usually in groups at the gallows. I also second the walking the plank option.

11/4/2008 12:37:11 PM

If there was ever a continent that needed a complete "do-over", its Africa.

for fuck's sake, if you're already starvin to death, DON"T BE MAKIN MORE PEOPLE TO FUCKIN FEED YOU DUMBASSES!

11/6/2008 5:47:55 AM

Quote :

"0EPII1: The "West"? Where the fuck was the "West" then? How come the "West" doesn't come in to Africa and decimate all these rebels and warlords? What about Darfur, Zimbabwe, Congo, and the rest? Oh yeah, they don't have oil, do they?"

The Congo has oil. So does Darfur.

And admit it. If we were to go in and slaughter all the bad guys, you'd criticize us for violence and arrogance.

11/6/2008 6:10:23 AM

Quote :

"0EPII1: The "West"? Where the fuck was the "West" then? How come the "West" doesn't come in to Africa and decimate all these rebels and warlords? What about Darfur, Zimbabwe, Congo, and the rest? Oh yeah, they don't have oil, do they?"

The Congo has oil. So does Darfur.

11/6/2008 6:12:32 AM

Quote :

"And admit it. If we were to go in and slaughter all the bad guys, you'd criticize us for violence and arrogance."

Hell NO, I won't.

I wouldn't open my mouth even if the US went in and killed millions of "bad people".

The problem though, is that there would be too much collateral damage, and that wouldn't be cool. If it could be done without much collateral damage (like if 10,000 baddies were all gathered in one place), I would have no problem with it. Drop the fucking MOAB on the 10,000. Vaporize those who insert guns into women's vaginas and shoot them, those who gang-rape women, those who kill and torture men and children.

11/6/2008 8:58:28 AM

The Ocean is the wild west. How do you prosecute pirates who claim no country, whose ship might not be registered or registered in a safe harbor country? If your ship is flagged in the U.S. and you are attacked in the Indian Ocean, is your ship U.S. Soil? If your Navy does attacks a ship, did they just commit an act or war on the 'host country'?The Ocean is a gray area, and its too vast to be enforced and too many countries have a stake in it or profit from illegal ocean doings to have uniform enforcement.


[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 9:10 AM. Reason : ggh]

11/6/2008 9:09:46 AM

Its funny because there were private militaries in Africa fixing these problems until the UN banned them for succeeding where un members have continued to fail.

[Edited on November 6, 2008 at 9:14 AM. Reason : .]

11/6/2008 9:14:15 AM

^^^^,^^^^^Holy shit. I need to sleep more.

11/7/2008 1:27:14 AM

I'm going to go ahead and ignore those posters in this thread who don't even understand the most basic arguments put forth in the (relatively) recent thread about why Africa is such a shit-hole.

---

Quote :

"last time i checked the blacks in Zimbabwe were subjugating the white minority groups there"

Aside from the fact that you seem to only have one national example, there is also the part where nationally born whites are different from European/American based corporations that dominate some of the less-pleasant parts of trade in the continent.

Quote :

"The "West"? Where the fuck was the "West" then? How come the "West" doesn't come in to Africa and decimate all these rebels and warlords? What about Darfur, Zimbabwe, Congo, and the rest?"

Sadly, a very small part of the "West" has my willingness to spend money and effort to do unpleasant things to even less pleasant people. I think that the biggest problem about Iraq wasn't that we went in to do things, but that we mis-allocated force there. Surely, surely with proper effort we could have eliminated the worst parts of the regime without having to invade, and then saved the lion's share of our military to oust other bad, bad people.

Quote :

"Yeah, I guess that's what's happening in Congo, Somalia, Sudan, Eritrea, Zimbabwe, Liberia, Sierra Leone, etc."

White corporations and monopolies running without regulation or principle in Africa are responsible for some of these problems. Other can be traced to the effects of white oppression, particularly in brutal cases like that of Congo. Admittedly, from my reading the Horn of Africa was fucked from day one because of a violent clan mentality that won't allow for much other than bloodshed, but in several of the cases you mentioned the problems can be traced to incompetent European administration and transition at best, and outright bloody profiteering at worst.

Quote :

"for fuck's sake, if you're already starvin to death, DON"T BE MAKIN MORE PEOPLE TO FUCKIN FEED YOU DUMBASSES!"

In Africa, as in other places, starvation rarely has anything to do with a lack of food.

Quote :

"The problem though, is that there would be too much collateral damage, and that wouldn't be cool. If it could be done without much collateral damage (like if 10,000 baddies were all gathered in one place), I would have no problem with it. Drop the fucking MOAB on the 10,000."

As usual, this is one of the fundamental differences between me and those less willing to use force.

If killing X people saves the lives of X+1, when no more effective solution can reasonably be found, I say go ahead and do it. This premise, of course, exists pretty much only in a vacuum from other principles, such as those broadly termed "freedom" in the western world and which do not generally exist in Africa. So I suppose I should say, "If killing X people in a brutal dictatorship and/or civil war zone will save X+1 people, when no more effective solution can reasonably be found, I say go ahead and do it."

Quote :

"The Ocean is a gray area"

There are fairly clear national and international laws regarding piracy and activity on the high seas.

11/7/2008 3:10:44 AM

Is there some international navy that I don't know about to enforce these laws?

11/7/2008 6:38:54 AM

Generally it's up to individual national navies to handle piracy in accordance with their own laws and international ones.

11/7/2008 11:20:48 AM

The U.S. Navy smokes pirates from time to time, too.

also:

Quote :

"The "West"? Where the fuck was the "West" then? How come the "West" doesn't come in to Africa and decimate all these rebels and warlords?"

I'm game. When I joined the USMC, the jihadist threat wasn't on the horizon the way it is now...the people I was hoping I'd get a chance to kill were fuckhead warlords in Africa (and genocidal assholes in Europe).

11/7/2008 11:31:20 AM

too bad the us and china cant have a proxy war in africa

11/7/2008 11:36:35 AM

^ Yeah, but blowing up Somali pirates with naval forces is something that both America and China would probably enjoy doing together. If anything, I would imagine that it would be a great opportunity for the USN/USMC and the PLAN to build better relations.

11/7/2008 1:06:39 PM

I don't see the dilemma with pirates. You kill them, simple as that.

11/7/2008 8:29:36 PM

Seems to be escalating further:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7733482.stm

Quote :

"Pirates have seized a giant Saudi-owned oil tanker in the Indian Ocean off the Kenyan coast and are steering it towards Somalia, the US Navy reports. The US-bound tanker was captured on Saturday some 450 nautical miles (830km) south-east of Mombasa, and is now approaching the Somali port of Eyl. The Sirius Star is carrying its full load of 2m barrels - more than one-quarter of Saudi Arabia's daily output."

Perhaps now the international community will start taking this problem seriously. I still don't understand why they haven't built a larger task force to crush this problem, or have the world's maritime powers forgot how to conduct anti-piracy operations?

11/17/2008 3:59:07 PM

Quote :

"Somalia is a "failed state", Capt Beijo added, and the West fears that if the pirates were handed over to the Somali authorities they would be tortured or executed."

I re-read this sentence 3 times and i'm still confused.

11/17/2008 4:15:14 PM

I love how everyone points the finger at Europeans yet forget that the United States of Freedom is a result of European colonization. lolz

11/17/2008 4:22:18 PM

Quote :

"oh man i'm so racist; i hope that obama guy i cast a vote for was full blooded anglo-saxon. I haven't heard much about the guy....."

another uneducated vote

11/17/2008 6:02:13 PM

^ true but over 60% of the people in African arnt dependence of Europeans.

Europe didnt colonize Africa they just stole all the resources.

11/17/2008 8:13:29 PM

I wonder if being a pirate is as admirable as it used to be.

11/17/2008 8:31:49 PM

+

+

+

=
Sucess

11/17/2008 8:37:00 PM

11/17/2008 9:33:18 PM

Fucking kill them, problem solved.

11/17/2008 11:55:34 PM

OK, so now they have hijacked 25 crew and 2 MILLION barrels of oil.

They will make a ransom demand, and it will be paid.

What I don't understand is why these animals are let go after paying them the ransom. Why can't they be arrested? That's just fucking wierd to me. "Here, here is $20 million, thanks for returning our ship, take care, bye."

WTF?

11/18/2008 10:24:37 AM

Great, another supertanker has been hijacked now, coming from Hong Kong bound for Iran and full of wheat. Hijacked in the same place.

These animals dare to call themselves Muslims. I would gladly skin them alive if I could.

11/18/2008 10:42:45 AM

^^ Exactly. They have to get off the ship somehow. How about when they get off the ship into their smaller boats, they get a fucking rocket right up their asses?

11/18/2008 10:48:46 AM

If the pirates are reasonably smart (and I bet they are if they've been this successful), they're probably getting off the boat with the hostages to discourage potential do-gooders from attempting to take action. Then, when its time to return the freighter, just toss the crew back onto the dock and let them take their ship away.

Perhaps what needs to be done is direct action against the Puntland government that seems to tolerate, if not tacitly support, these pirates conducting activities from their ports.

11/18/2008 11:01:17 AM

On BBC now:

Quote :

"Rebels have taken 95 ships this year and have collected $100 million of ransom."

Fuck... 100 MILLIONS DOLLARS???

Anyway, 2 more ships have been hijacked after the Saudi oil super tanker. BTW, the super tanker is the largest ever hijacked... 318 METERS long!

11/18/2008 4:04:09 PM

Where do I sign up to become a pirate

11/18/2008 4:35:01 PM

This is what happens when you negotiate with people like this.

11/18/2008 4:45:04 PM

Why do we pay the ransom? what do we think they will do? pull the stolen ship into port and unload the oil?? thats like knowingly driving a stolen car through a checkpoint. I guess human hostages are the only true motivation for any ransom to be paid, but this shit is ridiculous

11/18/2008 5:02:55 PM

These pirates sound awfully badass.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/01/world/africa/01pirates.html?ref=world

I'm amazed such things can still happen.

11/18/2008 6:12:44 PM