9 locations targeted. mainly areas/hotels popular with westerners and business people. 78 people reported killed so far. gunman have reportedly taken over 2 hotels popular with westerners and are holding hostages on multiple floors. a hospital was also reportedly targeted. The group Deccan Muhagedeen has allegedly claimed responsibility.

http://www.cnn.com

i'm not very aware of any significant islamic terrorist attacks in India. Will be interesting to see how India responds to this.

[Edited on November 26, 2008 at 5:28 PM. Reason : .]

11/26/2008 4:59:17 PM

Quote :

"i'm not very aware of any significant islamic terrorist attacks in India. Will be interesting to see how India responds to this."

Indian has a history of islamic terrorist attacks and more then 90% of the times they have been sponsored by foreign agencies/countries.

11/26/2008 5:49:01 PM

Quote :

"i'm not very aware of any significant islamic terrorist attacks in India. Will be interesting to see how India responds to this."

There are a lot of attacks. Most don't involve rich westerners and this is why these are getting more attention. The attacks usually occur in marketplaces and train.

India is pretty diverse as far as religious and ethnic groups (Hindu 80.5%, Muslim 13.4%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other 1.8%, unspecified 0.1%)...so from time to time there have been clashes.

11/26/2008 5:57:55 PM

anything this significant in the past? maybe not in deaths but in overall breadth of the attack?

11/26/2008 6:01:50 PM

Man, what is going on in Asia the past couple of days

11/26/2008 6:08:39 PM

Quote :

"July 11, 2006 - At least 200 people killed in a series of 7 train bombing during the evening rush hour near Mumbai. October 29, 2005 - Three powerful serial blasts in New Delhi at different places just two days before Hindu festival Deepawali[8]. About 70 people died in this incident. March 12, 1993 - Bombay bombings 257 deaths"

[Edited on November 26, 2008 at 6:10 PM. Reason : again this one gets more attention b/c of the westerners kind of like the Bali Bombings]

11/26/2008 6:09:48 PM

You must not pay attention to world events.. at all. India is a hotbed of religious strife, and has been ever since the Muslims invaded. Usually it's just a bombing with a few killed, or a temple, mosque, or church sprayed with bullets, but it happens all the time. This event is only unique in it's scope, and they have seemingly targets Westerners.

11/26/2008 6:11:03 PM

^^damn.

i do remember the train bombings though.

why do we never hear anything about the indian government's response to these acts? Is there any response other than condemnation? Any military actions? Seems like the world's largest democracy should have a pretty big stake in "the war on terror" especially considering they've seemingly been pretty heavily targeted by extremists.

11/26/2008 6:35:50 PM

Well things get dicey b/c many of the times they are linked to Islamic militants on the border of India/Pakistan in the Jammu and Kashmir states. Now that Pakistan and India are nuclear nations it is very risky to go into a full out war with Pakistan over smthg done by militants in those regions. There are army folk on both sides of the J&K borders...kind of like the demilitarized zone in N/S Korea.

Oh well. Pretty sad. The Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai and the Oberoi Hotel are pimp. Sad to see one on fire and the other under the control of militants.

11/26/2008 6:49:56 PM

Quote :

"One witness said gunmen had tried to find people with U.S. or British passports. "

Wonder if that is true.

11/26/2008 6:56:30 PM

whoa that was your 12345 post. congrats!

I saw the video with the guy saying that and he looked like he was one of the people fleeing the hotel. He had a British accent as well.

11/26/2008 7:12:53 PM

yeah, supposedly a guy was being held hostage, and they asked him where he was from...he said italy and they let him go

11/26/2008 7:29:05 PM

Note to self: Pretend to be Italian when in Mumbai.

11/26/2008 7:39:23 PM

That's a spicy meat-a-ball-a.

But seriously, stuff like this happens from time to time in India (and elsewhere), but it's still pretty shocking. CNNHD just had a commercial for vacations in India, btw. Kinda bad timing.

Hope people are gonna be okay

11/26/2008 8:39:50 PM

hello soap box experts

i was wondering how this was all gonna end up

i've already seen how obama's presidency was gonna fare through 2012, but what i've neglected to know is how this standoff is gonna play out

perhaps we can add huffington with drudge and divide in half?

11/27/2008 12:00:22 AM

AP Reports suicide bomber outside the US Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan

11/27/2008 12:01:50 AM

They are really trying to ruin our holidays those bastards.

They are playing with fire (no pun intended...).

11/27/2008 12:02:55 AM

Quote :

"AP Reports suicide bomber outside the US Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan"

Did they also report the presence of water in lakes, or drug dealers on Method Road?

I seriously doubt a connection.

Quote :

"i was wondering how this was all gonna end up"

Indian counterterrorists will try to show their mettle by taking down the remaining gunmen without hurting hostages. It will probably be a mediocre job, somewhere between Russia's "let's gas everybody and hope only the terrorists die" and the kind of surgical strikes you see SWAT teams perform in movies.

Then they will attempt to root out anyone else associated with it, only to find that most of the infrastructure is out of their country in some place they can't touch. Since they have plenty of bloodier events involving their own people, it will get slightly disproportionate attention (because of Western pressure) but won't be their top-bill case.

More attacks of similar scale, with some of them having similar intent, will continue to take place. India will be ill-equipped to deal with them without outside help, which an Obama administration might be more hesitant to offer as it tries to keep Pakistan relatively sane and stable.

Eventually something cataclysmic will happen to change the whole playing field. Maybe Pakistan collapses into chaos or falls into completely unacceptable hands. Maybe someone sets off a nuke in the US or one of its allies, and we quit trying to work with Pakistan and decide instead to be even more brazen in our pro-indian approach. Maybe India gets sick of this shit and decides to take military action, resulting in a (potentially) nuclear war that forces us to pick sides, because for the past seven years we've been trying to buddy-up with Pakistan and India, which isn't really a sustainable plan.

11/27/2008 12:29:26 AM

that sounds like something i read on the internet in 1998

i guess finally it will come true

took long enough

11/27/2008 1:33:38 AM

Quote :

"because for the past seven years we've been trying to buddy-up with Pakistan and India, which isn't really a sustainable plan."

Is it really? I mean, I thought the two sides have been making some real efforts to try and reconcile their differences. Not saying you're wrong, just didn't think it would be impossible.

Still, I just don't see this ending in a pretty manner. Given the sheer carnage of the attacks, I just can't see the gunmen letting them go. It may more be to just draw more attention and sympathy before they go out with a bang as martyrs for whatever cause their supporting (Islamic militants, Hindu fundamentalists, or some other violent faction). Most people seem to be hesitant about this Deccan Muhagedeen; apparently its the first time anyone has heard of them, and it may just be a front for some other organization.

I think this attack is drawing attention not just because of the Westerners but because its hitting hard at the very core of Mumbai's modern and progressive front. This attack strikes hard at the image of the newly emerging, hi-tech and dynamic India. This isn't just the usual "Kill the Westerners" type of attack, this feels like an attempt to undermine all of India's recent progress, an attempt to humiliate the Indian government.

11/27/2008 1:45:44 AM

I personally feel that there is no probability of war between India and Pakistan in near future (or i dont want one so may be i m supposing same)
I feel India should pay attention to guard borders and try to be a truly secular nation to decrease the tension between different religious groups mainly minorities vs Hindu majority.
It is very easy to brain wash youngsters from minoruty groups especially when they are already feeling that they are not being equally treated in their own country eg. the minority groups are banned if they are related with any hate crimes but i have never seen Govt to ban any Hindu organisation for the same reason and there are enough reports and evidences of those organisations being involved in such cases. Reason being that these organisations have enough support (open/hidden) by people in power recent example can be seen in this link
http://mutiny.in/2008/11/14/sonal-shah-obamas-first-mistake/

Something for Americans:
Your country has much better condition in terms of human rights and secularism. After 9/11 when a sikh was murdered, a lot of attention was paid and i have seen many educational news videos to make people aware of Sikhism or other religions and to respect their religious views and practices.
Lots of hate crimes are happening in India but not much efforts are being made to create harmony rather polititians themselves are involved in activities promoting hate.

tired of typing
more views might be coming later

11/27/2008 10:00:09 AM

these fuckers

11/27/2008 10:53:18 AM

Quote :

"we quit trying to work with Pakistan and decide instead to be even more brazen in our pro-indian approach"

tough decision there

rogue state that has never been stable, or the world's largest democracy

11/27/2008 10:56:05 AM

India's prisons are about to welcome a few more million people with arabic names.

11/27/2008 11:16:50 AM

I fully condemn these attacks, and demand the execution of all people involved. I am able to say this because I am color/religion/ethnicity-blind when it comes to innocent people dying, and don't take sides, even if people of my ethnicity, religion, etc. are the perps.

However, I must bring up a point here to counter all the India-dick-sucking going on, both by Americans (and America as a whole, for quite some time now, due to all the IT and space advances by India), and predictably, by Indians in the US.

I don't remember seeing anything here a month ago when:

100 Christians were murdered by Hindus
50,000 fled their villages and lived in forests
Several churches, prayer halls, and Catholic schools were burned down
Nuns and priests were attacked and beaten
A nun stripped naked and gang-raped

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7689215.stm

Quote :

"She said a group of some 50 men tore off her clothes. She was then raped, before being paraded down the road as police looked on. "They had already torn away my blouse and undergarments... and they went on beating me with hands on my cheeks and head and with sticks on my back." She said that when she asked for protection from local police officers, they did not move. And later, she said, they were unwilling to hear the details of her ordeal."

Quote :

"It has been described as the most serious violence against the Christian community in India in the last 50 years."

And this was not a one-off... Christians have been brutalized on and off forever, but increasingly more so (both in quantity and quality) in the past 10 years.

Where is American condemnation there, esp since the government hardly does anything to rectify such things and even turns a blind eye, and police stations refuse to register cases from the victims, only because the perpetrators are Hindus?

Last year:

Quote :

"“Hindu extremists attacked Christians celebrating Christmas in eastern India, ransacking and burning at least six village churches. One person was killed.” "

I can post articles here (from recognized news sources, such as BBC, CNN, Reuters, etc) of Hindu extremist brutality against Christians, Muslims, and lower-caste-Hindus ('untouchables') which will BURN YOUR EYES. But no one gives a shit.

Quote :

"world's largest democracy"

Only in name. Yeah, you are going to tell me that a Sikh is leading the country. So what?

The government might be democratic (in theory), but the society, far from it. The place is so f'ing crowded, that it is impossible to control it.

Rapes by policemen
Endemic police brutality and tortures (3,000 reported cases a year)
Gang-rapes by upper caste men against lower-caste women (and the police turns a blind eye)
The poshest of malls which are off-limits to poor people
Skyscrapers next to shanty towns with open sewers
etc

Hardly democratic, is it? And the important thing here is that I am not talking of one-off or rare incidents/situations.

I am going out for dinner, but I can post more later.

Just search the internet. Look at websites of HRW, Amnesty, and the State Department.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7734777.stm


[Edited on November 27, 2008 at 12:48 PM. Reason : ]

11/27/2008 12:38:53 PM

^ if it's not Islamic terrorism, americans don't care.

11/27/2008 12:47:42 PM

^

[/thread]

?

11/27/2008 12:48:37 PM

Quote :

"Where is American condemnation there, esp since the government hardly does anything to rectify such things and even turns a blind eye, and police stations refuse to register cases from the victims, only because the perpetrators are Hindus?"

I know in conservative religious circles, there's been a lot of concern and uproar, but given that the religious right's voice in the United States has been weakened, I don't think it carries nearly as much weight anymore.

Perhaps its just that Christians are too small a minority in India for it to draw the attention of the mainstream media, especially with all the talk of the vibrant, socialist democracy that's rising to balance out the Chinese.

Then again, there are more conspiratory theories as to why Christian persecution doesn't draw as much attention, but its not worth elaborating at this point.

11/27/2008 1:25:05 PM

please let us know even if its not worth mentioning here

and 0EPII1 whatever you have said is very true
also check this link

http://news.indiainfo.com/2008/11/17/0811171420_be_ready_to_face_consequences_if_rss_vhp_banned_naidu_to_upa.html

11/27/2008 1:40:01 PM

Quote :

"Perhaps its just that Christians are too small a minority in India for it to draw the attention of the mainstream media, especially with all the talk of the vibrant, socialist democracy that's rising to balance out the Chinese. Then again, there are more conspiratory theories as to why Christian persecution doesn't draw as much attention, but its not worth elaborating at this point. 11/27/2008 1:25:05 PM "

It could also be that these new attacks have a political basis, vs the attacks on Christians being run-of-the-mill religious idiocy.

11/27/2008 1:44:13 PM

Good read

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/27/india.attacks.responsibility/index.html

11/27/2008 5:44:36 PM

Quote :

"Is it really? I mean, I thought the two sides have been making some real efforts to try and reconcile their differences. Not saying you're wrong, just didn't think it would be impossible."

Actually read an article about it the other day in Foreign Affairs, which I occasionally read because I am lonely and pathetic. Aside from the unresolved conflict between India and Pakistan (Kashmir, religious tension, etc.), there's a growing paranoia in Pakistan regarding US intentions in large part because of the degree of our support for India.

To quote:

"Many in Pakistan believe that the United States has deceived Pakistan into conniving with Washington to bring about its own destruction: India and U.S.-supported Afghanistan will form a pincer around Pakistan to dismember the world's only nuclear power."

It's the kind of worry that could easily crop up, especially since it is nearly impossible to treat with the two countries equally. To support our aims in Afghanistan, we have to provide some military support and aid to Pakistan. Then we have to offer something comparable to India to keep the increasingly powerful country happy and the regional balance maintained. Meanwhile, India is resprising its historical role as good friend to Afghanistan (precisely because it does give them that two-front strategic advantage that Pakistan fears), and is building all manner of consulates and facilities in that country. We can't very well tell the Indians to stop doing that, and we can't encourage the Pakistanis to start, because that country has generally served as a pipeline for the Taliban. Unfortunately we can't just cut it off, either, because Pakistan is also our pipeline to Afghanistan.

So basically, every little thing we do to help one side unbalances the regional equation. If we give something to the other side to balance it, we've actually done little to fix the underlying problems behind the enmity but we've increased the power of each of the possible opponents.

Quote :

"rogue state that has never been stable, or the world's largest democracy "

It is a tough decision because appropriate dealing with Pakistan can help reduce the upwelling fundamentalism there, which in turn will generally turn up the stability and turn down the possibility for war. Meanwhile, being really good friends with India doesn't get us much. Arguably, it gets us less -- India doesn't give us access to Central Asia. India will act as a counterweight to China all on its own, because it's in its best interest to do so. Meanwhile India's got its own great potential for instability. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather treat with a functional democracy if I had my druthers, but under the circumstances it's a tough call.

Quote :

"The government might be democratic (in theory), but the society, far from it. The place is so f'ing crowded, that it is impossible to control it."

Unless there is widespread voter fraud or intimidation of which I am unaware, it is a democratic country with no qualifiers. It is socially unequal and corrupt democracy, but it is a democracy.

The United States has variations on many of the problems you listed and had all of them within the past century. Much of it was legally protected. Segregation was awful, but it didn't make the United States a non-democracy. Most of the shit you list going on in India is against the law, it just takes a while for a country that large and that poor to get corruption under control.

I agree with your general sentiment that we shouldn't be jumping all over India's dick, but let's not minimalize its accomplishments, either. It has managed to be a democracy of more than a billion people. No matter how flawed the place is, that's impressive.

[Edited on November 27, 2008 at 5:47 PM. Reason : ]

11/27/2008 5:47:21 PM

Quote :

"It has managed to be a democracy of more than a billion people. No matter how flawed the place is, that's impressive."

Is it inherently harder for very populous countries to be democracies? I don't see the connection, and I don't see it as an accomplishment.

If you want to talk about accomplishments, they have to do with IT, manufacturing, and now, space technology.

11/27/2008 6:05:50 PM

I'm rather shocked. I stayed at the Oberoi both times I've been to Mumbai and toured the Taj while visiting the Gateway of India. Both are beautiful places.

11/27/2008 7:52:10 PM

Quote :

"Actually read an article about it the other day in Foreign Affairs, which I occasionally read because I am lonely and pathetic."

Hey now, Foreign Affairs makes for an interesting read. Nothing lonely or pathetic about that.

11/27/2008 8:02:30 PM

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/11/mumbai_attack_most_significant_1.asp

Quote :

"India's government has long treated the terrorist problem as a secondary issue. This will change. The mode of attack--assault teams launched into the heart of a major city--is already sending chills down the spines of security officials and governments throughout the world."

oh lawd

11/27/2008 8:12:34 PM

Quote :

"Is it inherently harder for very populous countries to be democracies?"

I would argue that it absolutely is more difficult. Not because it's harder to count votes or some such, but because it's harder to have democratic institutions to carry out government policies effectively without becoming more and more distant from the country's constitutional and democratic standards. It also gets more difficult for minority voices to be heard.

The problem is compounded in very diverse countries, like India. The overwhelming majority of Indians are Hindu, sure, but there's still more than 134 million Muslims -- not too far below the entire population of Pakistan (172 million). Hell, to just take it from the Library of Congress Federal Research Division:

Quote :

"The exact number of ethnic groups depends on source and method of counting, and scholars estimate that only the continent of Africa exceeds the linguistic, cultural, and genetic diversity of India."

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/India.pdf

Frankly, it's a wonder that the entire thing has managed to stay unified for sixty years, let alone manage to consistently elect its leadership.

11/27/2008 11:21:39 PM

Quote :

"Frankly, it's a wonder that the entire thing has managed to stay unified for sixty years"

Not looking at the many struggles/fights for independence going on within India, yes.

If things keep on going the way they are going in the world, India WILL break one day, just as USSR did. China will break too, and Russia as well.

11/28/2008 8:11:11 AM

I dont know much about other nations but no chances of India breaking in near future

11/28/2008 9:57:11 AM

I could see small parts being granted autonomy, maybe even independence or a change in sovereignty to another country. But beyond that, India will largely remain intact.

Ditto Russia. They'll probably give up Chechnya eventually, and maybe a couple of other small provinces, but I don't see it fracturing on any large scale.

China might very likely have some big breakaways as the regime's control on politics unravels, which it eventually will. At that time I suspect you'll see a resurgences of some of the old countries.

11/28/2008 3:45:14 PM

155 dead so far

11/28/2008 3:58:28 PM

DON'T WORRY FOLKS! I'LL SAVE THE DAY!

11/29/2008 1:26:07 AM

11/29/2008 1:26:43 AM

11/30/2008 11:25:22 AM

well i guess the terrorists must have read that page and taken the challenge, as according to cnn they planned on killing 5,000.

11/30/2008 1:08:00 PM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5280084.ece

12/3/2008 11:57:51 AM

^ supposedly that terrorist is the son of the Police Minister of some state in Pakistan. That should bode well for relations...

12/3/2008 4:12:51 PM

^^truth serum eh?

have a nice trip!


[Edited on December 3, 2008 at 7:07 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2008 7:06:23 PM

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/04mumterror-india-has-proof-of-isi-hand.htm

12/4/2008 10:37:10 AM

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94S454G0&show_article=1

12/4/2008 3:52:48 PM