http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-assault-rifles-copsnov21,0,6943772.story

I'll post in this thread when I see dumbasses make ignorant, ill-conceived arguments against firearms.

11/28/2008 8:56:57 PM

My feeling is that they probably need more officers and not more guns, but i see nothing wrong with this plan

11/28/2008 9:05:01 PM

wtf...cops are getting better guns and somehow these punks think the streets will be less safe?

yeah they'll be less safe for the criminals...seems like a win win situation

11/28/2008 9:15:18 PM

Maybe they should just issue the police some low power rifles instead.

Since scary looking guns are the worse kind, maybe if the police are issued tricked out 10/22's with muzzle breaks, composite stock, massive magazines etc the criminals will really think twice.



[Edited on November 28, 2008 at 9:21 PM. Reason : ]

11/28/2008 9:19:54 PM

^^^ I would rather have better cops, not more cops. Maybe even rather have fewer, better cops--then they'd never be sitting around with nothing to do, hassling people over silly shit.

^ Rifles don't come much more low-powered than evil, scary-looking M4s. That's half of why these dumbasses get a mention in this thread.

11/28/2008 9:30:26 PM

Somewhat related, because it will come up:
The truth about semi-auto firearms http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

11/28/2008 9:35:50 PM

Quote :

""It'll shoot through brick, car doors. Say your family is in the house eating and there's some gang violence. When they shoot these [the bullets] can come into your house and shoot your kids." "

This would never come up, if there is gang violence in front of your house, the cops won't be there until well after there is no one around to shoot at.

11/28/2008 9:51:47 PM

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

11/28/2008 10:09:00 PM

^^ In addition, I seriously doubt that .223/5.56 rounds would penetrate a brick wall. Certainly not an expanding, ballistic-tip type round, and I seriously doubt FMJ. Some penetrator-cored type round might, but it's not like they're going to be using that.

A no-shit "high-power" rifle, like a .30 cal, would probably do it (depending on the thickness of the wall), but not an AR-15/M4.


...not to mention that no cop worth a shit would be firing towards a residency in an effort to smoke a bad guy.



...and on top of all that, I've seen tests done where even a 9mm round (a medium power handgun round) penetrates multiple barriers more than the 5.56. It will, in fact, penetrate a car door, no problem.

[Edited on November 28, 2008 at 10:29 PM. Reason : again--never once seen an anti-gun person who had the slightest clue what he was talking about.]

[Edited on November 28, 2008 at 10:31 PM. Reason : safdasdasd]

11/28/2008 10:24:18 PM

I sympathize with the protesters. Cops have a history of being violent thugs. Do you cheer when the local gang gets an arsenal upgrade?

Quote :

"In addition, I seriously doubt that .223/5.56 rounds would penetrate a brick wall."

See and believe:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6760530260633420235

Fascinating video. I suggest watching the whole thing.

Quote :

"...not to mention that no cop worth a shit would be firing towards a residency in an effort to smoke a bad guy."

Cops totally do this. They spray bullets everywhere when they unload.

11/28/2008 11:03:54 PM

Trust me, I have my own reservations about cops...but I have far more disdain for dumbshits with a political axe to grind who have no fucking idea what they're talking about.

[Edited on November 28, 2008 at 11:16 PM. Reason : and even if a 5.56 will go through a brick wall, it's not like a 9mm isn't just as bad.]

my God, argue for better cops who don't do so many stupid things, but don't demonize a simple machine with totally ignorant, off-base arguments.

[Edited on November 28, 2008 at 11:19 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

11/28/2008 11:15:06 PM

Do citizens think that if police are issued rifles, they will be swinging them around during traffic stops?

Rifles in law enforcement serve a purpose, I bet these people wouldn't be crying if a rifle was used to stop an active shooter or end another North Hollywood bank robbery.

Weapons should look scary. Should police carry pretty guns? A patrol rifle should scream business, not something else.

In conclusion, people are bat shit crazy.

11/28/2008 11:38:16 PM

Shit, in a lot of ways, two of the most truly fearsome firearms out there are a 12-gauge shotgun and a 7mm/.30 caliber+ scoped hunting rifle...pretty much the only two kinds of guns that don't get gun grabbers' panties in a bunch.

^^^ Still working on the video...internet here is very slow. Looks like the 5.56 round did penetrate one layer of brick, but got lodged in the first layer of sheetrock it hit after that. A real brick house has more than just a single layer of brick seperating living spaces from the outdoors. I still don't think it would ever pose a threat to occupants of a brick house, unless it went through a door or window.

Non-brick houses, maybe. I'm not saying the 5.56 isn't dangerous--I'm saying that it's not really any worse than any other firearm, and is less powerful that almost any other rifle cartridge (and some handguns).

Also, this is only for a straight-on shot. The 5.56 never made it through the brick, or even the cinderblock, when it was fired from an angle.

[Edited on November 28, 2008 at 11:58 PM. Reason : asdfads]

[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 12:00 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

11/28/2008 11:42:04 PM

Quote :

"truly fearsome firearms out there are a 12-gauge shotgun and a 7mm/.30 caliber+ scoped hunting rifle"

this man speaks truth

a 12-gauge close range blows anything away.

11/29/2008 12:37:01 AM

Quote :

"Looks like the 5.56 round did penetrate one layer of brick, but got lodged in the first layer of sheetrock it hit after that."

The rear wall of the front room, yeah. Anyone inside that room would have been in trouble.

Quote :

"A real brick house has more than just a single layer of brick seperating living spaces from the outdoors."

I really have no idea, but I suspect this varies.

Quote :

"Shit, in a lot of ways, two of the most truly fearsome firearms out there are a 12-gauge shotgun and a 7mm/.30 caliber+ scoped hunting rifle..."

At the same time, there's a reason you don't see soldiers wield those guns too often.

Quote :

"The 5.56 never made it through the brick, or even the cinderblock, when it was fired from an angle."

Indeed. But the AK-47 round blew through both. Maybe that's part of why some folks prefer that old Russian gun.

11/29/2008 12:43:25 AM

Quote :

"Indeed. But the AK-47 round blew through both. Maybe that's part of why some folks prefer that old Russian gun."

I guarantee the police aren't going to be using AK-47

Quote :

"At the same time, there's a reason you don't see soldiers wield those guns too often."

Shotguns aren't used too often because they are less versatile than assault rifles. They are not that useful at long range, and the ammo is bulky. But they are very powerful in urban combat, especially automatics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

11/29/2008 1:28:51 AM

Yes, because of its almost sci-fi flavor, I'm quite familiar in the AA-12. The damn thing can fire all sorts of absurd exploding projectiles. That's a major leap from your average hunter's piece. Anti-gun folks probably do want to ban or restrict the AA-12.

11/29/2008 2:10:42 AM

AFAIK, all shotguns can fire those rounds, the AA-12 is special and deserves restictions because of its high capacity and for being fully automatic.


Similarly, these police officers are not going to be getting fully auto assault rifles. It says right in the article they are semi-automatic, which most people don't have a problem with when owned by private citizens (as long as they don't look like scary assault rifles that is).

[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 4:11 AM. Reason : ]

11/29/2008 4:11:04 AM

Quote :

"Looks like the 5.56 round did penetrate one layer of brick, but got lodged in the first layer of sheetrock it hit after that."

Not to pick nits, but that was penetration out of a full, 20" barreled M16A3 at 90 degreees. If these guys get the standard M4 with a 14.5" barrel. You lose a lot of energy in that 3.5". I don't have the numbers in front of me, but a 5.56 x 45 out of a 14.5" barrel in a standard 55 or 62 grain configuration isn't exactly a barrier penetrating monster.

There are definitely issues to be considered here, but these protesters aren't exactly demonstrating their intellectual prowess here.

11/29/2008 11:45:58 AM

we gotta stop making baby skull seeking bullets.

11/29/2008 11:58:50 AM

Quote :

"AFAIK, all shotguns can fire those rounds,"

I never thought of that. I associate the Frag-12 with the A-12. Can civilians buy those miniature grenades?

Quote :

"If these guys get the standard M4 with a 14.5" barrel. You lose a lot of energy in that 3.5"."

Yeah, that might well make the difference. But the article doesn't really say which model the cops are getting. High-power, semi-automatic rifles. That could be almost anything. The M-4 only gets mentioned at the end, as something SWAT teams carry.

11/29/2008 12:17:19 PM

Quote :

"I never thought of that. I associate the Frag-12 with the A-12. Can civilians buy those miniature grenades?"

I really doubt it.

11/29/2008 12:51:54 PM

^^ The problem is, M-4 =/= "high power". By definition "assault rifles" shoot intermediate power rounds, not "high power."

I have an issue with the rise of police state style tactics both under the Clinton Administration (Waco, Ruby Ridge) and under the Bush Administration (Patriot Act, wiretapping) but allowing cops to carry M4s for situations where they need them isn't something that particularly scares me. The idea that illegal operators give a shit about fair play and will only now escalate is asinine.


Is it me or do both political extremes live by playground rules. The hard, quasi-fascist, right believes that we can bully everyone into agreeing with us, and the hard, quasi-anarchist/communist, left believes that if we all just play fair, we'll all get along. The world is a bit more dynamic than that.

11/29/2008 2:55:16 PM

^ You'll have to take up such complaints up with whoever wrote the article. As I said, the author doesn't specify what they mean by high-power, semi-automatic rifles.

11/29/2008 4:59:11 PM

Quote :

"The rear wall of the front room, yeah. Anyone inside that room would have been in trouble. "

This is what I was getting at with the next thing you quoted...in a real brick house, there is more than just a single layer of brick between the outdoors and the dining room table. It would never make it into a room (other than going through a window or door).

Quote :

"At the same time, there's a reason you don't see soldiers wield those guns too often. "

true, several reasons:

1. They both shoot large, heavy ammunition (relative to a 5.56). Can't carry as much of it.
2. If you are in an 8 hour firefight, you're going to make a fucking ton of shots. This isn't a factor anywhere else.
3. until recently, scopes weren't really a viable option for the weapon of a basic infantryman--they just wouldn't take the beating.
4. Most military rifles use lower power rounds (either very small caliber, like an M-16/M-4, or a handgun round, like an MP-5, etc) partially to have manageable recoil under full-auto operation.
5. There is a school of thought that says a wounded enemy is better than a dead one, as it takes even more enemy people out of the fight, and creates a greater logistical and operational burden. I'd rather kill them immediately to reduce the chance of him shooting back before he died, but many people take the other viewpoint.


and there are combat shotguns...also, the Remington 700 (my hunting rifle) is the exact same thing that snipers use. The only difference is that mine has a wood stock rather than synthetic, and mine is chambered for a round that is roughly 15-20 more powerful than the sniper weapon.

Quote :

"Indeed. But the AK-47 round blew through both. Maybe that's part of why some folks prefer that old Russian gun."

That's part of it. It is much more lethal, at least inside a couple hundred yards, then an M-16. It shoots a .30 caliber round (although about as weak of a .30 cal rifle round as you'll find), compared to a fairly weak .22 caliber round in the M-16.

Quote :

"That's a major leap from your average hunter's piece"

You can fire all kinds of shit out of a regular hunting shotgun, too. Birdshot, buckshot, slugs, beanbags, rock salt, incendiery, mild explosive ("bird bombs"), and you can buy it all pretty easily. It just won't do it full-auto (though you can still fire REALLY fast with a pump or semiauto). The biggest differene is ammo capacity (though civilian tactical shotguns can hold a good number of shells).

Quote :

"The problem is, M-4 =/= "high power". By definition "assault rifles" shoot intermediate power rounds, not "high power." "

That's really the big point I was making.

...and "intermediate" is being generous, at least relative to the world of rifles.

Quote :

"As I said, the author doesn't specify what they mean by high-power, semi-automatic rifles. "

Probably because neither the author nor the protesting kids have any idea what they are talking about, so general terms is the best they could manage.

11/29/2008 5:33:06 PM

Quote :

"never once seen an anti-gun person who had the slightest clue what he was talking about"

That's because the only smart anti-gun people are criminals that prefer an unarmed populace. (They don't speak out...)

11/29/2008 5:59:45 PM

depending on how you define "anti-gun" I may fall into that category, i know my way around a gun

11/29/2008 7:02:45 PM

Quote :

"true, several reasons:"

Solid list, but I don't think you're giving enough importance to rate of fire. Hunting rifles and many shotguns would be risky if not suicidal in gunfight. You'd have to make that first shot count. Sure, both weapons work fine for murdering somebody. Each shot would be more dangerous than one from an assault rifle. No doubt able that.

In practice, criminals prefer handguns anyway. Carrying around a longarm tends to get you noticed.

Quote :

"the Remington 700 (my hunting rifle) is the exact same thing that snipers use."

Depends on the sniper. You can't kill somebody over two klicks away with that round.

11/29/2008 7:26:29 PM

So, the cops are finding themselves outgunned. Seems like trying to one-up the enemy is a myopic strategy. Maybe they should think about trying to solve the problems that lead to and perpetuate criminality.

11/29/2008 7:38:54 PM

^ Cops, with rare exception, aren't the tool to tackle the problem from that angle.

^^ oh, sure, I left out rate of fire because I figured that it went without saying for a military rifle.

Also, a 7mm REM (like my hunting rifle) might carry enough energy to be lethal at that range. I doubt anyone could consistantly hit people at that range. That's really the realm of the .50 BMG. I was just saying that my hunting rifle is functionally nearly identical to a sniper rifle, except that mine is chambered for a substantially more powerful round (7mm REM vice 7.62 NATO/.308 WIN). The 7.62 is effective in excess of 1 km, and the 7mm would match or exceed it.

11/29/2008 7:50:12 PM

Quote :

"That's really the realm of the .50 BMG."

Yes, exactly. The McMillan Tac-50 would be an example of a true high-power rifle.

[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 7:59 PM. Reason : maybe that's what the cops are getting!]

11/29/2008 7:58:36 PM

yeah, that's about as high-power as it gets.

...but for the purposes of being reasonable, I'd say that a 7.62/.308, .30-06, any 7mm or .30-caliber "magnum" cartridge, .260, .270, 280, .25-06, etc qualify as a "high-power" round. Something like a .243 would be borderline. A .223/5.56 is about as weak of a rifle round as you'll find, with the exception of rimfire cartridges like the .22LR, .17, and .22 WMR. The M-16/M-4 is not even that powerful in the world of .22s! A .22-250 or .220 Swift is noticeably hotter.



[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 8:14 PM. Reason : Just consulted a ballistics table. My 7mm totally STOMPS the 7.62, especially at range.]

11/29/2008 8:13:18 PM

Quote :

"Say your family is in the house eating and there's some gang violence. When they shoot these [the bullets] can come into your house and shoot your kids."

what the fuck. i'm not away of many guys that won't go through typical vinyl siding/insulation/drywall. if gangs are in front of your house you probably aren't living in a brick house

11/29/2008 8:28:00 PM

^ Concur on all points!

11/29/2008 8:34:22 PM

As duke pointed out earlier, it would be reckless and irresponsible for a cop to fire in that circumstance anyway. Unfortunately, cops have a record of doing such things. Two cases of police bullets threatening bystanders immediately come to mind.

11/29/2008 8:43:05 PM

that .50 BMG round would blow all my guts out haha.

11/29/2008 10:01:10 PM

Quote :

"Fascinating video. I suggest watching the whole thing."

Whenever I watch videos like that, it amazes me that we don't wind up with more dead and wounded in combat zones than we do.

11/29/2008 11:01:38 PM

Quote :

"^ Concur on all points! "

could you fix my typo then? haha

11/29/2008 11:13:15 PM

Quote :

"Whenever I watch videos like that, it amazes me that we don't wind up with more dead and wounded in combat zones than we do."

Well, living people would likely be on the floor or squeezed into a corner, not relaxing like those mannequins. This could make a difference.

11/29/2008 11:34:48 PM

Quote :

"I would rather have better cops, not more cops. Maybe even rather have fewer, better cops--then they'd never be sitting around with nothing to do, hassling people over silly shit."

11/30/2008 12:18:34 AM

i totally saved that pic!

anyways, cops are enforcers not law makers. But I can see how difficult ad scary their jobs could be at times. They only see scum all day long that the rest of us don't have to see. And I'm grateful.

But I also see that there can be bad cops who couldn't handle the stress.....but still if they say this what they need to get the job done....I trust them. Crime is out of control now a days!!!
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004902.html

I also think they want to get these in before Obama becomes in control......

11/30/2008 2:52:20 PM

Wait, you mean you think the cops want to get these guns before Obama comes in? You weren't very clear. I don't see how that affects this whatsoever, hell if anything Obama probably knows they people trying to push this.

11/30/2008 3:29:20 PM

# Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:

Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
# Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.***
# Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

He is very anti-gun I don't think he would approve of his hometowns purchase.

Even the talk left say he is all over the map on the issue
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/16/22186/4153

11/30/2008 3:58:48 PM

what of those things makes you think obama is anti-gun for police officers

11/30/2008 4:33:36 PM

Quote :

" marilynlov7: Crime is out of control now a days!!! http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004902.html"

Haha according to that website, crime is significantly LOWER now than it use to be. You must have a strange definition of "out of control..."

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778268.html

11/30/2008 4:36:51 PM