Good debate on C-Span at the moment. The Republicans in the house don't seem to happy about the plan.

1/27/2009 7:14:25 PM

yeah, what else is new.

oohh, ohh, i have a good idea - let's give payroll and social security tax breaks! That will help the 10 milion people without jobs immensly!

1/27/2009 7:17:01 PM

Well, the congressman from Illinois had a good point "what is funding for the arts going to do for his people"? That type of spending needs to be left the hell out, and I applaud the Republicans if they stand up against it. No need to rush through some stupid pork laden crap. Just the essence, nothing more, nothing less.

1/27/2009 7:20:14 PM

Doesn't much matter if the Republicans stand up against it or not, especially in the House.

1/27/2009 7:32:58 PM

as long as SOMEONE is standing up against it, it helps me have a little bit of faith in our federal govt.

1/27/2009 7:36:01 PM

standing up to it for the sake of standing up to it doesn't do anybody any good.

I haven't heard anything but typical partisan arguments for or against it.
McCain, Mr. no Bush 2002 tax cuts, is complaining because there aren't enough tax cuts

1/27/2009 7:38:13 PM

Ummm, how the hell did funding for art museums get in the bill? You can call it partisan politics if you want to, I want some damn body up there saying hell no to shit like that.

Gabrielle Giffords (D) is standing up there right now wanting investment in solar. How is that not partisan (even if you agree with it)?

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 7:42 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 7:41:18 PM

Quote :

"let's give payroll and social security tax breaks! That will help the 10 milion people without jobs immensly!"

if they work out something where companies get tax breaks for hiring, while the stimulus package picks up the tab for umemployment insurance for 2009, it could stop the bloodletting that's going on in the labor market.

the breakneck pace at which companies are shedding jobs could make this recession much worse than it already is..

1/27/2009 7:47:45 PM

a big portion of it pays for upgrading and making more readily available broadband internet which involves the laying of Fiber Optic cable. As an employee of the biggest manufacturer of fiber optic glass i must say i approve.

They had a thing on it on CNN.com and some woman was bitching about them building roads and other infrastructure upgrades complaining how it doesn't help the economy or jobs. Is this woman stupid?? Someone has to design and build the roads. Plus having an adequate traffic infrastructure assists in the efficiency of moving people and goods; all GOOD for the economy. Assuming that these upgrades will be for roads that are legitimately bogged down by traffic and high volume.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 7:51 PM. Reason : l]

1/27/2009 7:48:14 PM

Good call on C-SPAN. I'm watching right now, I'll be calling Rep. Price tomorrow voicing my opposition. Of course, it won't matter with him, but I'm calling anyway.

1/27/2009 7:48:57 PM

Michelle Bachman could get it...

hyperinflation? yes.

i simply do not see the "punishingly high taxes" situation happening.

1/27/2009 8:04:13 PM

^^^Corning? in Wilmington?

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 8:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 8:05:13 PM

^ I don't think Richard would appreciate you using company time to piddle on the wolf web.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 8:16 PM. Reason : l]

1/27/2009 8:08:23 PM

^Ha!

Corning will benefit from Stimulus. It's employees not so much, at least not in the immediate future.

1/27/2009 8:35:51 PM

Quote :

"That will help the 10 milion people without jobs immensly!"

creating jobs is not the priority for democratic leaders. This "stimulus" plan is just a payoff to democrat special interest groups and favored classes.

The pork in is huge...it's the 'Bridge to Nowhere" on steroids.

Quote :

"there aren't enough tax cuts "

Actually, that's all we should be doing...cutting taxes.

We have the second highest corporate taxes in the world. Cut it in half. That will create jobs.

Cut the income or payroll tax for a few months. Let average people keep more of their money..instead of giving it Wall Street Fat cats.

1/27/2009 8:43:38 PM

I don't even think socialist Obamabots can rationally say this plan will accomplish anything besides increasing the national debt and weakening the value of the dollar. ^ the politicians don't want to cut payroll taxes enough to do any good because the people who don't pay attention to how much they pay in taxes might wise up. the crowd pushing this stupidity is basically counting on the voters to not have sense enough to realize what a bad idea it is, and the last election proves that they are right.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ...]

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 8:51 PM. Reason : ...]

1/27/2009 8:46:41 PM

So here is a sampling, what do you guys think should stay, and what should go:

Quote :

"$44 million for repairs at the Agriculture Department headquarters in Washington. $200 million to rehabilitate the National Mall. $360 million for new child care centers at military bases. $1.8 billion to repair National Park Service facilities. $276 million to update technology at the State Department. $500 million for the Transportation Security Administration to install bomb detectors at airports. $600 million for General Services Administration to replace older vehicles with alternative fuel vehicles. $2.5 billion to upgrade low-income housing. $400 million for NASA scientists to conduct climate change research. $426 million to construct facilities at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. $800 million to clean up Superfund sites. $150 million for the Coast Guard to repair or remove bridges deemed a hazard to navigation. $6.7 billion to renovate and improve energy efficiency at federal buildings. $400 million to replace the Social Security Administration's 30-year-old National Computer Center."

1/27/2009 9:09:33 PM

get rid of all of it

i hate poor people and space, and weather

they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps

especially weather

1/27/2009 9:25:32 PM

any structure upgrades repair to un-important buildings/facilities is a huge waste of money IMO. I'd personally keep the NASA funding and the bomb detector installments.

1/27/2009 9:27:15 PM

^^

ooh

we were looking for an answer in picture form...

picture form

sorry

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 9:27 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 9:27:23 PM

no no no

i just pick a side and tow the line now

1/27/2009 9:29:44 PM

ahh

WELL AT LEAST IT'S DIFFERENT

1/27/2009 9:31:15 PM

marko with great TSB contributions as always.

1/27/2009 9:37:00 PM

get rid of anything that won't immediately put out of work people to work.

i'm looking at you NASA climate research.

1/27/2009 10:04:07 PM

Quote :

" This "stimulus" plan is just a payoff to democrat special interest groups and favored classes"

Well at least they won't be doing anything different than the past 8 years. Just that the choice of "special interest group" will be
different than from under the Bush Administration. This is true of any president though it u really want to get picky about it.

Quote :

"Actually, that's all we should be doing...cutting taxes."

Early proposals called for tax cuts to various income classes. While i don't necessarily agree with giving tax breaks to the
lower quintiles that already don't pay much tax; i can do nothing but laught the GOP trying to paint the early tax cut proposals
as "socialist". I guess any tax cut that does not give the most cuts to the upper echelons, deceasing exponentially with lower income
is "socialist". Not that I disagree but the GOP should be using legitimate arguments not appealing to the emotional sensitivity
of the american people to be like "OMG Faux News says the new plan is part of the communist agenda".

Quote :

" We have the second highest corporate taxes in the world. Cut it in half. That will create jobs."

This is true i think corporate taxes could be slimmed a little. Would provide less incentive for companies to send jobs overseas.
Would u support a corporate tax though in exchange for an increase in the highest individual income tax bracket though?

Quote :

"$360 million for new child care centers at military bases."

Negative

Quote :

"$1.8 billion to repair National Park Service facilities."

sure

Quote :

" $276 million to update technology at the State Department."

probably desperatly needed

Quote :

"$500 million for the Transportation Security Administration to install bomb detectors at airports. "

Big Negative

Quote :

"$2.5 billion to upgrade low-income housing."

Needed but not a priority in this given crisis. Sorry Latika you will just have to wait.

Quote :

" $400 million for NASA scientists to conduct climate change research. "

Sure, maybe conservative will rejoice if NASA uncovers with their research dollars climate change is really just a part of earth's
natural cycle. Without money though to research anybody that has beyond a high school diploma should understand that evidence is needed
and playing arm chair climatologist to support your political paties agenda will not fly.

Quote :

"$6.7 billion to renovate and improve energy efficiency at federal buildings."

good investment but shouldn't be a priority at this current economic crisis time.

Quote :

"I'm looking at you NASA climate research."

How can you and your republican buddies claim Global warming to be false without research? I am sorry but Bill O'Rielly does not count as a scholarly source for climate information.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 10:41 PM. Reason : l]

1/27/2009 10:40:01 PM

Quote :

"$6.7 billion to renovate and improve energy efficiency at federal buildings"

think of a local publicly traded LED company that could benefit from this?

1/27/2009 11:12:02 PM

Quote :

"How can you and your republican buddies claim Global warming to be false without research?"

republican??


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

you sir, are a grade-A moron

1/27/2009 11:40:46 PM

fuck cree

1/27/2009 11:53:09 PM

Quote :

"Well at least they won't be doing anything different than the past 8 years."

you said it there, brother!

Quote :

"Would u support a corporate tax though in exchange for an increase in the highest individual income tax bracket though?"

I suspect that the richest of the rich aren't dealing with income anymore. Income taxes hit the younger workers the hardest, in their peak-earning years, trying to raise a family etc.

If you want to punish the very rich, pass the FairTax. It goes after wealth-spending.

Reducing taxes would get the economy flying again. This 'stimulus' bill is a smokescreen for pork...and will do nothing but empower politicians even more.

1/28/2009 2:34:38 AM

yeah and I love how anybody who stands up to it (Republicans) will be villified for not pushing a "bi-partisan" bill just because Obama tells them to... fuck that. If they don't like the bill, why should they just go along with it? The Democrats against the bill who are doing that are just as worse as a Republican opposing it just for the hell of it.

1/28/2009 8:08:32 AM

its really sad how much wasteful pork is in this crap

1/28/2009 8:22:09 AM

Quote :

"Income taxes hit the younger workers the hardest, in their peak-earning years, trying to raise a family etc. blow it on cars, tvs, etc"

I don't think an income tax cut is going to have the stimulus you think it will. It probably should be employed as part of the bigger plan, but agentlion has a point, it doesn't help anyone who got pushed out of work. If you believe that the stimulus should be for demand, it won't help because these people will thank god they have additional income and will just pay off existing debt and stick the rest in savings for the eventual layoff that they think they'll face.

Quote :

"its really sad how much wasteful pork is in this crap"

Which of what I posted do you specifically take issue with?

1/28/2009 8:52:21 AM

$44 million for construction, repair and improvements at US Department of Agriculture facilties

$209 million for work on deferred maintenance at Agricultural Research Service facilities

$245 million for maintaining and modernizing the IT system of the Farm Service Agency

$175 million to buy and restore floodplain easements for flood prevention

$50 million for "Watershed Rehabilitation"

$1.1 billion for rural community facilities direct loans

$2 billion for rural business and industry guaranteed loans

$2.7 billion for rural water and waste dispoal direct loans

$22.1 billion for rural housing insurance fund loans

$2.8 billion for loans to spur rural broadband

$150 million for emergency food assistance

$50 million for regional economic development commissions

$1 billion for "Periodic Censuses and Programs"

$350 million for State Broadband Data and Development Grants

$1.8 billion for Rural Broadband Deployment Grants

$1 billion for Rural Wireless Deployment Grants

$650 million for Digital-to-Analog Converter Box Program

$100 million for "Scientific and Technical Research and Services" at the National Institute of Standards And Technology

$30 million for necessary expenses of the "Hollings Manufacturing Extension Partnership"

$300 million for a competitive construction grant program for research science buildings

$400 million for "habitat restoration and mitigation activities" at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

$600 million for "accelerating satellite development and acquisition"

$140 million for "climate data modeling"

$3 billion for state and local law enforcement grants

$1 billion for "Community Oriented Policing Services"

$250 million for "accelerating the development of the tier 1 set of Earth science climate research missions recommended by the National Academies Decadal Survey."

$50 million for repairs to NASA facilities from storm damage

$300 million for "Major Research Insrumentation program" (science)

$200 million for "academic research facilities modernization"

$100 million for "Education and Human Resources"

$400 million for "Major Research Equipment and Facilities Construction"

$4.5 billion to make military facilities more energy efficient

$1.5 billion for Army Operation and Maintenance fund

$624 million for Navy Operation and Maintenance

$128 million for Marine Corps Operation and Maintenance

$1.23 billion for Air Force Operation and Maintenance

$454 million to "Defense Health Program"

$110 million for Army Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$62 million for Navy Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$45 million for Marine Corps Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$14 million for Air Force Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$302 million for National Guard Operation and Maintenance

$29 million for Air National Guard Operation and Maintenance

$350 million for military energy research and development programs

$2 billion for Army Corps of Engineers "Construction"

$250 million for "Mississippi River and Tributaries"

$2.2 billion for Army Corps "Operation and Maintenance"

$25 million for an Army Corps "Regulatory Program"

$126 million for Interior Department "water reclamation and reuse projects"

$80 million for "rural water projects"

$18.5 billion for "Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy" research in the Department of Energy. That money includes:

$2 billion for development of advanced batteries

$800 million of that is for biomass research and $400 million for geothermal technologies

$1 billion in grants to "institutional entities for energy sustainability and efficiency"

$6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program

$3.5 billion for Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grants

$3.4 billion for state energy programs

$200 million for expenses to implement energy independence programs

$300 million for expenses to implement Energy efficient appliance rebate programs including the Energy Star program

$400 million for expenses to implement Alternative Fuel Vehicle and Infrastructure Grants to States and Local Governments

$1 billion for expenses necessary for advanced battery manufacturing

$4.5 billion to modernize the nation's electricity grid

$1 billion for the Advanced Battery Loan Guarantee Program

$2.4 billion to demonstrate "carbon capture and sequestration technologies"

$400 million for the Advanced Research Projects Agency (Science)

$500 million for "Defense Environmental Cleanup"

$1 billion for construction and repair of border facilities and land ports of entry

$6 billion for energy efficiency projects on government buildings

$600 million to buy and lease government plug-in and alternative fuel vehicles

$426 million in small business loans

$100 million for "non-intrusive detection technology to be deployed at sea ports of entry

$150 million for repair and construction at land border ports of entry

$500 million for explosive detection systems for aviation security

$150 million for alteration or removal of obstructive bridges

$200 million for FEMA Emergency Food and Shelter program

$325 million for Interior Department road, bridge and trail repair projects

$300 million for road and bridge work in Wildlife Refuges and Fish Hatcheries

$1.7 billion for "critical deferred maintenance" in the National Park System

$200 million to revitalize the National Mall in Washington, D.C.

$100 million for National Park Service Centennial Challenge programs

$200 million for repair of U.S. Geological Survey facilities

$500 million for repair and replacement of schools, jails, roads, bridges, housing and more for Bureau of Indian Affairs

$800 million for Superfund programs

$200 million for leaking underground storage tank cleanup

$8.4 billion in "State and Tribal Assistance Grants"

$650 million in "Capital Improvement and Maintenance" at the Agriculture Dept.

$850 million for "Wildland Fire Management"

$550 million for Indian Health facilties

$150 million for deferred maintenance at the Smithsonian museums

$50 million in grants to fund "arts projects and activities which preserve jobs in the non-profit arts sector threatened by declines in philanthropic and other support during the current economic downturn" through the National Endowment for the Arts

$1.2 billion in grants to states for youth summer jobs programs and other activities

$1 billion for states in dislocated worker employment and training activities

$500 million for the dislocated workers assistance national reserve

$80 million for the enforcement of worker protection laws and regulations related to infrastructure and unemployment insurance investments

$300 million for "construction, rehabilitation and acquisition of Job Corps Centers"

$250 million for public health centers

$1 billion for renovation and repair of health centers

$600 million for nurse, physician and dentist training

$462 million for renovation work at the Centers for Disease Control

$1.5 billion for "National Center for Research Resources"

$500 million for "Buildlings and Facilties" at the National Institutes of Health in suburban Washington, D.C.

$700 million for "comparative effectiveness research" on prescription drugs

$1 billion for Low-Income Home Energy Assistance

$2 billion in Child Care and Development Block Grants for states

$1 billion for Head Start programs

$1.1 billion for Early Head Start programs

$100 million for Social Security research programs

$200 million for "Aging Services Programs"

$2 billion for "Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology"

$430 million for public health/social services emergency funds

$2.3 billion for the Centers for Disease Control for a variety of programs

$5.5 billion in targeted education grants

$5.5 billion in "education finance incentive grants"

$2 billion in "school improvement grants"

$13.6 billion for Individuals with Disabilities Education Act

$250 million for statewide education data systems

$14 billion for school modernization, renovation and repair

$160 million for AmeriCorps grants

$400 million for the construction and costs to establish a new "National Computer Center" for the Social Security Administration

$500 million to improve processing of disability and retirement claims

$920 million for Army housing and child development centers

$350 million for Navy and Marine Corps housing and child development centers

$280 million in Air Force housing and child development centers

$3.75 billion in military hospital and surgery center construction

$140 million in Army National Guard construction projects

$70 million in Air National Guard construction projects

$100 million in Army Reserve construction projects

$30 million in Navy Reserve construction projects

$60 million in Air Force Reserve construction projects

$950 million for VA Medical Facilities

$50 million for repairs for military cemeteries

$120 million for a backup information management facility for the State Department

$98 million for National Cybersecurity Initiative

$3 billion for "Grants-in-Aid for Airports"

$300 million for Indian Reservation roads

$300 million for Amtrak capital needs

$800 million for national railroad assets or infrastructure repairs, upgrades

$5.4 billion in federal transit grants

$2 billion in infrastructure development for subways and commuter railways

$5 billion for public housing capital

$1 billion in competitive housing grants

$2.5 billion for energy efficiency upgrades in public housing

$500 million in Native American Housing Block Grants

$4.1 billion to help communities deal with foreclosed homes

$1.5 billion in homeless prevention activities

$79 billion in education funds for states

1/28/2009 9:20:05 AM

and that isnt all of it.

Personally, I wouldnt pass any of it bc we cant afford it. Its time our govt follow the lead of the people and cut back on its spending. They could also pass thefairtax or lower coorporate taxes to encourage businesses to COME here instead of leave creating real jobs not paying someone to watch a pothole get filled in for a couple months.

Now if I asked you to send in 20 bucks for each of those items listed, you would be pretty pissed off about it. In fact, your share of this stimulus bill is a lot higher, but most people have the attitutde that THIER money wont be affected or they wont have to personally share in the repayment of this thing. that is exactly why we need a different tax system so everyone is playing with thier own chips and not someone elses. A lot of these spending projects would be met with a lot more resistance if people actually thought they had to pay something towards them.

[Edited on January 28, 2009 at 9:29 AM. Reason : ,]

1/28/2009 9:20:52 AM

Quote :

"Now if I asked you to send in 20 bucks for each of those items listed, you would be pretty pissed off about it. "

I would be? What if I were jobless and the collective sending of 20 bucks to each of those meant I had a job for the next year until the economy picked back up?

1/28/2009 9:50:57 AM

The economy might pick back up anyway and not because of this stimulus. We already have unemployment to help you when you lose a job. the fact that 1 trillion will have to be paid back and will only be repayed by the productive will only hurt long term growth and the economy. IMO

Productive jobs and workers will be saddled with repaying this, do you disagree?

1/28/2009 10:01:01 AM

Where's Ron Paul when you need him?!

1/28/2009 10:02:25 AM

Quote :

"Where's Ron Paul when you need him?!"

funny, the media are falling all over themselves trying to get an interview with him NOW, when they wouldn't even give him proper coverage during the primaries....

Even though I wish this Plan didn't exist, I think there are some good things in it. A lot of fat though. BUT if it passes, I get to keep my $7500 credit for first-time homebuyers. Finally a bailout I can use.

[Edited on January 28, 2009 at 10:13 AM. Reason : c]

1/28/2009 10:12:57 AM

This is not an infrastructure bill, it is a health and human services bill right out of the 70s. It is not going to save anyones job, since the vast majority of the 'work' being created is for government employees, individuals whose employment was not in question anyway.

The people that are losing their jobs do not posess the skills to be a government bureaucrat. As such, these are job that will be filled by individuals quitting their private sector jobs and making the situation that little bit more precarious for private sector companies. Afterall, how can they create productive jobs if their managers keep quitting to work for the government?

Quote :

"oohh, ohh, i have a good idea - let's give payroll and social security tax breaks! That will help the 10 milion people without jobs immensly!"

Many economists believe recessions occur when the available money supply no longer justifies the existing wage and price structure and therefore wages and prices must fall to restore equillibrium, which takes time because wages are stickier than prices. Elimination of the employer portion of the payroll tax would immediately cut every workers employment costs by 6%, potentially eliminating the wage/price imbalance, restoring profitability, and ending the recession.

[Edited on January 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason : .,.]

1/28/2009 10:17:24 AM

Funny you mention ron paul

Contrary to the belief of many, the goal of the economy is not job creation. Jobs can be a sign of a healthy economy, as a high energy level can be a sign of a healthy body. But just as unhealthy substances can artificially give the addict that burst of energy that has nothing to do with health, artificially created jobs just exacerbate our problems. The goal of a healthy economy is productivity. Jobs are a positive outcome of that. A “job” could be to dig a hole one day, and fill it back up the next, or perhaps the equivalent at a desk. This does no one any good. But the value in that paycheck ultimately has to come from taxing someone productive. Some think this round-robin type of economic model is supposed to get us somewhere.

Politicians and bureaucrats have already done their fair share to ensure that jobs in the private sector are prohibitively complicated and expensive to create. They are now shocked that the economy is shedding jobs, and want to simply create hundreds of thousands of jobs to make up for the job losses, through another so-called economic stimulus package. The private sector must be permitted to do that, but instead they are massively burdened with taxes and webs of red tape and regulation. Washington’s bandaids will only prolong this agony. The Austrian school of economics teaches that only a free market economy, unencumbered by onerous government controls, creates long-term prosperity. Politicians, however, tend to be notoriously short-sighted.


http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog_inc?BLOG,tx14_paul,blog,999,All,Item%20not%20found,ID=090112_2598,TEMPLATE=postingdetail.shtml

1/28/2009 10:17:43 AM

there are some very good things in this bill, especially in regards to upgrading infrastructure and funding state projects to do their own.

it should end with that, IMO.

1/28/2009 10:22:55 AM

Quote :

"The people that are losing their jobs do not posess the skills to be a government bureaucrat. As such, these are job that will be filled by individuals quitting their private sector jobs and making the situation that little bit more precarious for private sector companies. Afterall, how can they create productive jobs if their managers keep quitting to work for the government?"

This is a joke right? You, the one saying that production will shift around to where it is needed, now claiming that the people that are being let go can't move to where it is needed (or created, however artificially) because they don't have the skill? Ummm, ok? And don't be retarded, managers aren't going to quit their job to go work for the government unless they really fear their job might be lost. If that is indeed the case, there is good reason to believe that the job will in fact be lost anyway.

Quote :

"Many economists believe recessions occur when the available money supply no longer justifies the existing wage and price structure and therefore wages and prices must fall to restore equillibrium, which takes time because wages are stickier than prices."

That would be great if that were in fact the cause of this recession. It's pretty much so bad that wage cuts have already taken place all over the country in the form of reduced hours and involuntary time off.

Quote :

"Elimination of the employer portion of the payroll tax would immediately cut every workers employment costs by 6%, potentially eliminating the wage/price imbalance, restoring profitability, and ending the recession."

Yes, a credit crunch caused recession where employer costs lower by six percent will SURELY inspire the banks to start lending to other banks again!

1/28/2009 10:26:53 AM

Quote :

"And don't be retarded, managers aren't going to quit their job to go work for the government unless they really fear their job might be lost. If that is indeed the case, there is good reason to believe that the job will in fact be lost anyway."

Really? You have never known anyone to quit one job for another outside a recession?

The money has been allocated, those in the government want to hire people; they will pay whatever it takes to get qualified applicants to come, even if it means crippling other employers. That is how labor markets work: the wage causes reallocation.

Quote :

"This is a joke right? You, the one saying that production will shift around to where it is needed, now claiming that the people that are being let go can't move to where it is needed (or created, however artificially) because they don't have the skill?"

Yes. Yes I am. Anyone that says labor markets work perfectly and instantaneously are lying to you. Those being laid off from the finance sector will find work in government bureaus. Those being laid off from the construction and manufacturing sectors without a college education will not.

Quote :

"Yes, a credit crunch caused recession where employer costs lower by six percent will SURELY inspire the banks to start lending to other banks again!"

They don't need to. Labor and production markets can eventually stabilize at whatever money supply they find themselves with. It just might take years. As such, if God decreed that no bank would ever lend to another bank ever again, the efficient flow of money through the banking system would halt, dramatically lengthening the time money spends held in banks, as we have experienced, cutting the effective money supply to the whole economy. As the theory goes, full employment would eventually be restored after wages and prices restored to the new equillibrium with the lowered money supply.

However, as it is the case that not all banks have stopped lending to all banks, just those suspected of trouble have been ostracised, the money supply has not fallen that much. I suspect a 6% cut in wages combined with the cuts from existing unemployment would be close, causing unemployment to stop rising and start a gradual return to structural unemployment rates.

1/28/2009 10:53:40 AM

Quote :

"The money has been allocated, those in the government want to hire people; they will pay whatever it takes to get qualified applicants to come, even if it means crippling other employers. That is how labor markets work: the wage causes reallocation."

Whatever it takes won't be much thanks to a steady supply that the private market has been dumping out there since the start of the recession.

That is exactly what the theory is behind the stimulus, to replace the just lost private sector jobs with government jobs to support the velocity of the money.

Quote :

"Those being laid off from the construction and manufacturing sectors without a college education will not. "

If only some of the best tech companies in the country would start laying off people, we'd have a ready supply of them to stick in the government jobs with little re-education needed to tell those construction workers where to lay the new concrete and erect the new steel and wood.

Quote :

"the money supply has not fallen that much."

Of course it hasn't fallen that much because the Fed has already been quietly trying to pump the hell out of it. The discussion about a liquidity trap in this case comes long before your discussion about the labor markets.

[Edited on January 28, 2009 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

1/28/2009 11:06:07 AM

Quote :

"That is exactly what the theory is behind the stimulus, to replace the just lost private sector jobs with government jobs"

And then we will wonder why we keep losing private sector jobs.. since they will now have to be paying for thier own employees AND the newly created govt jobs.

1/28/2009 11:09:26 AM

Quote :

"since they will now have to be paying for thier own employees AND the newly created govt jobs"

Yes, the jobs and companies that no longer exist will be paying for their own employees and government jobs

1/28/2009 11:14:07 AM

I'm all for it, let's get to work. And I don't expect any of you conservatives to want to back the Stimulus because you are politically destined to eat up all the talking points like hotcakes - a la OMG EETS ALL PORK! I haven't heard any alternative ideas from any Republican. The only thing I've heard is bitching that they didn't get their way and complaints about the contraceptives.

You hate this bill because why would your fragmented and fucked up party right now support it? It gives you no return from upcoming elections, because if it helps the economy you will not get credit. If it hurts it, you can swoop in as the Johnny change agents that were 'right all along'. So your party isn't going to be cooperative no matter what the hell is in the bill. Bipartisanship ahoy!


Many elements in this bill are long term approaches and thats what the fuck we need right now. Some of the biggest ones are....

-- Renewable energy: $54 billion. -- Double production of alternative energy in the next three years. Weatherize low-income homes, modernize 75% of federal buildings and update the nation's electrical grid with a new, cost-efficient "smart" grid.

-- Health-care records: $20 billion. -- Modernize the health care system by computerizing all of the nations' medical records in the next five years.

-- School modernization, renovation, repair, $20 billion -- includes $14 billion for K-12 schools, $6 billion for higher education

1/28/2009 11:18:38 AM

Quote :

"I haven't heard any alternative ideas from any Republican."

What? I think conservatives have been calling for corporate and individual tax cuts as well as railing against Obama's Hog-Farm of of bill.

For some perspective, take a look at one of our young country's first bail-out bills:

Quote :

"On November 26, 1796, the city of Savannah, Georgia, was devastated by a fire. Representatives introduced legislation calling for federal aid to rebuild the city. In the course of significant debate on the measure, Representative Nathaniel Macon from North Carolina remarked that: The sufferings of the people of Savannah were doubtless very great; no one could help feeling for them. But he wished gentlemen to put their finger upon that part of the Constitution which gave that House power to afford them relief.... He felt for the sufferers...but he felt as tenderly for the Constitution; he had examined it, and it did not authorize any such grant.[8] Representative Andrew Moore of Virginia, among others, agreed: "[E]very individual citizen could, if he pleased, show his individual humanity by subscribing to their relief; but it was not Constitutional for them to afford relief from the Treasury." --Gary S. Lawson"

We have deluded ourselves into the erroneous thinking that the gov't should be the main instrument of everyone's salvation.

1/28/2009 11:59:13 AM

Quote :

"In a second gesture of aid to the city, Irwin successfully led a legislative movement to allocate a portion of the revenues raised from the importation of slaves to rebuild Savannah. "

do we have any slave tax laying around we could use?

[Edited on January 28, 2009 at 12:18 PM. Reason : +]

1/28/2009 12:17:18 PM

So were is all that money going to come from? Just wondering. Also, the so called "purpose" of the "stimulus" is to create jobs right? A hell of a lot of these things won't do that.

Quote :

"It gives you no return from upcoming elections, because if it helps the economy you will not get credit. If it hurts it, you can swoop in as the Johnny change agents that were 'right all along'. So your party isn't going to be cooperative no matter what the hell is in the bill. Bipartisanship ahoy! "

Yea, uh huh. You do realize that there are quite a few fiscally minded Republicans right? Especially so in the House. Add on to that a large segment of the public doesn't want it passed, even though the media is shoving it down there throats. Yea, Republicans are partisan, but no more so the Democrats. And the assertion that Democrats are somehow less partisan is probably the biggest fallacy that has been propagated recently.

Republicans are fucked because it doesn't matter if the stimulus works or not. It's very simple. Obama is seen as "doing something" even if accomplishes nothing, it's a win win for the Democrats.

The economy continues to tank? Democrats say it would have been worse without the stimulus

The economy improves? Democrats say it is because of the stimulus, even if the stimulus has no impact or even a slight negative impact. It doesn't matter, because the Democrats "did something".

That is politics, you do something then manipulate the outcome so it looks like your action had a positive impact.

1/28/2009 12:19:35 PM