my feet have low arches.

when i buy insoles, should i buy a medium arch support insole first, and then ease my way into high arch support? or should i get high arch support right off the bat?

Should i do something completely different?

I'm looking for help from the sports med/first-hand experience/qualified professional crowd for an answer to this question.

thx

7/15/2009 6:54:35 PM

honestly you should just go to a legit running store and get fitted for shoes

they'll help you with all that, for free and the shoes are decently priced too

7/15/2009 7:43:21 PM

i tried that yesterday by going to the Finish Line (the only specialty shoe store in the city i'm currently in) and asking them for their advice.

A bunch of high school kids that flirt with each other behind the counter and just recommend the most expensive shoe when you ask for advice.

i did end up buying a pair of these and some med arch support insoles though.



just got back from trying them out and they feel great. I just want to make sure this isn't short term comfort, i want to do what's best for my feet both now and in the long term.

7/15/2009 7:59:29 PM

^^she is right

Unless you are in BFegypt, there is a more professional store than finish line. Tell us where you are and maybe someone knows somewhere that can help. Getting properly fitted by someone more than high schoolers is important, though.

7/15/2009 8:30:13 PM

I have 30 days to use the pair of shoes and i can return them after use as long as i have the reciept. i'll be back in Raleigh in less than a month so the plan is to use these shoes temporarily so i have something to run with, then i'll hit up some actual shoe joints.

where do you guys have in mind?

7/15/2009 8:37:38 PM

if you're coming back to raleigh eventually what about fleet feet?

7/15/2009 8:50:34 PM

fleet feet or inside out sports would be my recommendations for Raleigh.

7/15/2009 9:13:39 PM

Stop using running shoes, or shoes at all for that matter. Lack of "arch support" never stopped the Kenyans. I made the switch a couple weeks ago and it has worked out great. No more pain in my foot (I got always got it on the top of my foot and outer arch), no more shin splits, and no more sore knees (a big deal for my 6'5" 250 frame).

Article today about it:
http://lifehacker.com/5315406/ditch-your-shoes-for-better-runs

TWW Barefoot Running thread:
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=419632

Website with loads of testimonials, specific to VFFs:
http://www.birthdayshoes.com/

Born to Run: A Hidden Tribe, Superathletes, and the Greatest Race the World Has Never Seen:
http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303

7/15/2009 10:24:09 PM

^i really thought about buying a pair of those and was this close but i couldn't gather enough about them for how they are for people with my foot "situation," so i decided to hold off until i have enough info to make a good decision.

7/15/2009 10:49:29 PM

oooo fads

7/15/2009 11:06:34 PM

Quote :

"oooo fads"

I agree, running shoes are a fad that should eventually pass. Humans have been running for thousands of years without arch support, gel inserts, thick foam heals, motion-control, etc.

Quote :

"^i really thought about buying a pair of those and was this close but i couldn't gather enough about them for how they are for people with my foot "situation," so i decided to hold off until i have enough info to make a good decision."

A lot of people start out just putting on a pair or two of socks they don't care about and stick to treadmills, grass fields, and clean paths. You really don't have to buy any of the "barefoot" shoes to give it a try. It does take time to adjust, especially if you have weak arches, but its not as long as you might think (my arch never hurt, just my calf). I've been considering them for about two years now and finally bought a pair this month.


[Edited on July 15, 2009 at 11:46 PM. Reason : .]

7/15/2009 11:40:09 PM

as far as the shoes you already have... if your knees, ankles, arches or any other part of your body-- knees down, dont hurt after some longer runs (5mi min) then you're probably fine. if you're feeling any soreness or discomfort, its a sign that your shoes are wrong

but if you're looking to go the barefoot route thats a totally different story

fleet feet in raleigh can definitely fit you for proper running shoes

7/16/2009 1:57:13 AM

How are those vibrams for feet with absolutely no arch to them? We're talking flat flat.

7/16/2009 8:05:34 AM

Quote :

"if your knees, ankles, arches or any other part of your body-- knees down, dont hurt after some longer runs (5mi min) then you're probably fine. "

yea they didn't hurt one bit, i was super satisfied.

i'll hit up fleet feet when im' back in town for some consulting. Thanks for the help guys.

7/16/2009 10:21:51 AM

My lower back kills me every time I go running, usually forcing me to stop and walk for a while. I think I may be flat footed? Not sure, are there running shoes for this type of problem?

7/16/2009 11:25:59 AM

^yea i had that too. from what i've read it's from flat feet.

i got over it by stretching. just google "lower back stretch" and you should come up with some hits. bending over and touching your toes is probably the simplest stretch to do for it. Once i had stretched that part regularly for about a week or so, i went to the gym and started using machines to "bulk up" that muscle. haven't had a pain from it since.

7/16/2009 12:07:00 PM

^^you are probably holding your torso in such a way that your lower back muscles are supporting you rather than abs and glutes

7/16/2009 10:39:53 PM

Well, I tend to run really upright, which would seem to probably put stress on my lower back, so that makes sense.

7/16/2009 11:01:51 PM

Yeah, leaning too far back is also bad. you should be leaning only slightly forward. check out those marathon runners. They don't lean too far front or back.

I would look up proper running form, work on strengthening those abs and glutes, and work on using them when you run.

7/16/2009 11:14:04 PM

You should get inserts that *match* the arches of your feet.

Getting higher arch support than your foot naturally has will weaken the arches in your feet over time, which will make your feet more prone to injury. If anything, you want the arch support slightly less than your natural arch, just there as a safety mechanism, not as actual "support".

Arch supports are really for long periods of standing, to counteract the unnatural fatigue it causes. Muscles aren't made to stay contracted for minutes at a time, which is what your arches are doing when you stand in place all day.

The barefoot running advice is pretty sound, running barefoot strengthens your arches like crazy. But it does take a long time to get used to the impact on your feet, and you change your running style to do so (which is again, longterm, a good thing). The biggest issue with barefoot running is that you either need to be barefoot ALL THE TIME to build up toughness in your feet, or only run on relatively smooth surfaces like tracks and maintained paths.

7/17/2009 4:25:53 PM

If you have low arches, then get insoles with low arches.

If you have low arches because your feet are flat, then get medium arch insoles that are posted.

7/20/2009 8:50:42 AM

Just to elaborate...

There's flat feet, and low arches. Flat feet is a condition where your foot won't hold it's arch under pressure. You can have flat feet with low, medium, or high arches, but it is more common with low and medium arches.
if you have flat feet then higher arched insoles are usually better. Flat feet can be corrected with posted insoles that roll your ankles outward.

The best thing to do, as already suggested, is go to a foot store and find out what you need.

7/20/2009 4:58:59 PM

+1 for the vibram fivefingers, barefeet, and flat-footedness!

i have high arches, flat feet, and fucked up knees. i've been to orthopaedists, rheumatologists, neurologists, etc over the last 3 years that my knees have been bothering me. i have prescriptive insoles and knee braces and a prescription for celebrex. none of them really ever helped much in the long term.

i saw the running barefoot thread in chit chat and dude above's description of his experience with the vibram fivefingers. it was spring when i first started reading that thread i think...it was just barely warm enough for barefeet. i took my shoes off to do yard work, house work, etc. i felt better. i bought a pair of FFs (sprints) and was immediately hooked. i don't own a more comfortable pair of footwear. my knees do not hurt unless i'm squatting for extended periods (which has nothing to do w/ footwear imo).

last month on our honeymoon we went to glacier national park. i started hiking in nice backpacking boots since what's what you're supposed to hike in. my knees hurt. i switched to my trail running shoes. my knees hurt. i put on my FFs and i was good to go. i had so much more energy and no pain.

i hiked 8 miles in those shoes and felt way better afterward than Fumbler

i also have another pair, surge, which are kinda more like boots (come higher up above your ankle and are fully enclosed w neoprene). they're for cold weather.

they're not a fad, at least for me. once you use them, you understand.



[Edited on July 21, 2009 at 1:31 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2009 1:29:49 PM

just bought a pair [of vibram fivefingers] today and instantly love them.

got the black KSO's, found them to be the least hideous

only problem is i think i might get some blistering on big toe, but im guessing the skin will just harden over time. this is just day 1 so my opinion is subject to change... but i'm not sure if i can ever go back to running shoes after this. they would just feel awkward. good to have my fitted shoes around just in case, of course.

only other complaint is they are somewhat annoying to put on and take off. i'm thinking that will get easier with practice.

[Edited on July 28, 2009 at 7:28 PM. Reason : .]

7/28/2009 7:28:10 PM

I feel like this is relative to this thread:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3130011

7/28/2009 8:52:15 PM

BTW, just posted the new models of Vibram FiveFingers coming out in the barefoot thread:
message_topic.aspx?topic=419632&page=5#13120758

7/28/2009 11:58:35 PM

i dont feel like reading through all the material.. but it sounds like these vibram fivefingers are meant for people with flat feet?

i have high arches and my running shoes are amazing but my knees kill after distance running. so much that i'll try anything to make it stop.

7/29/2009 12:05:04 AM

^running a lot is going to cause knee pain, regardless

7/29/2009 12:38:33 AM

i slacked on my glucosamine and my half marathon on sunday was most certainly, the most physical pain i've ever been in in all my life

on the bright side, i did a ton of hip flexor exercises and my hips were money, unlike last time when i couldn't even lift my leg into a car

7/29/2009 12:44:25 AM

There's a large argument between minimalist running and the high support shoes that are often sold in running stores.

It seems the gist of it is, if you're not trying to be a high mileage, speed runner then running in vibram (and other minimalist footwear) is somewhat beneficial, but there's also a lot to be said for regular footwear. It's all in what you're looking to do.

7/29/2009 1:15:00 AM

^ I'd agree with you, but there are also a number of distance runners and speed runners that vouch for the FFs/barefoot running. Some ultramarathon runners wear them too.

But it really does depend.
I was looking at FFs for a long time before I bought them, and knew about them years ago. And I'll admit that when I bought them, I was very nervous that I spent too much money on the wrong shoe. But after a couple runs of getting used to them, I fell in love. I walk around barefoot all the time anyway, inside and outside. The barefoot change wasn't a big deal. But being barefoot for real isn't an option for me being in the city--there's too many things to step on (glass being the number 1). Theses shoes really are like barefoot-with-shoes running. It's not an oxymoron, it's true.

I tore my ACL, and I was having some trouble getting into running. But I think these helped. Whose to say that fitted shoes wouldn't? I never went that route, so I can't say that way.
I will say though, my feet had to get used to them--different parts of my feet hurt when running for the first couple runs (ankle, top of my foot, toes, arches). But now, nothing. And I feel like I have more spring in my step and a desire to go!

Flat feet note: someone in the running barefoot thread had mentioned that it corrected his flat feet over time. Don't remember who though.

Also: I got the FF Sprint. Don't get that model lol. The KSOs are what you probably want because they really would "keep stuff out." I get little rocks and dirt in my shoes quite often, and that's my main annoyance. Also, if you stub your toe, yikes lol!
I heard the Classic model also is annoying--if it's not a perfect fit (and mine aren't) then they tend to slip around your feet with no straps holding it on.

7/29/2009 7:32:13 AM

[quote]i dont feel like reading through all the material.. but it sounds like these vibram fivefingers are meant for people with flat feet?[quote]

read the thread.

i like the look of the sprints better and if you wear socks (sold at REI) they don't get stuff in them. i thought the KSOs looked too much like aquasocks. i'd still like to get a pair though, maybe on sale or something since i already have 2.

holy crap the leather and the laces are

7/29/2009 8:37:21 AM

Woot! glad to see this thread is relevant to peoples interests.

It's been 3 weeks since i've picked up running again and i've been running with UnderArmour Illusions with Medium arch support/High Comfort insoles. The reason i bought a new pair of shoes is because i could feel every pebble in the road as i ran and my feet would numb up and then my form would turn into a stomping motion.

After i switched to these Illusions I feel like a different runner, it feels great to run in them and i feel no pain anywhere.

one thing to mention though, sometimes when i curl my toes in and straighten out my leg&foot, i feel a muscle on the underside of my left foot start to cramp. immediately i release so it doesn't turn into a full on clamp. I guess i need to stretch that muscle more.

7/29/2009 9:40:00 AM

Quote :

"I'd agree with you, but there are also a number of distance runners and speed runners that vouch for the FFs/barefoot running. Some ultramarathon runners wear them too."

I'm in no way against minimalist running, but the minute percentage of runners that vouch for minimalism, and the amount of competitive runners that run in a shoe speaks for it self (even if they are sponsored).

7/29/2009 12:22:47 PM

I didn't think you were against it
A while ago I was attempting to read up as much as I could about it (obviously mostly on the barefoot side and not the nonbarefoot side). I found a couple articles of Olympic runners vouching and ultramarathon runners vouching. But you are correct, the percentage of barefoot runners is slim. That may be because it is a fairly new concept. Or because it is viewed as a fad. But true either way, more people run in shoes.

Yeah, the KSOs look weird to me too. I'll have to take you up on the socks. Maybe that will make up for the extra space that's in there. Ideally I'll start running with no shoes. But yikes that hurts my feet! Not while running, but after there's this painful/awkward sensation. Eep.
I would love to get another pair though. FFs are so fun

7/29/2009 1:03:36 PM

i think that more people run in shoes just because that's what you're *supposed* to do. barefoot is a foreign concept to a lot of people and they're just not going to try it. think of kids who are brought up in big cities where you don't go anywhere barefoot. running that way is never going to cross their mind.

so just because everybody else wears shoes, doesn't make it the best. for some people, being barefoot will be comfortable and perhaps solve some leg/joint problems (like me!), but for others it's just not going to work regardless.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 1:28 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 1:25:05 PM

Quote :

"i think that more people run in shoes just because that's what you're *supposed* to do. barefoot is a foreign concept to a lot of people and they're just not going to try it. think of kids who are brought up in big cities where you don't go anywhere barefoot. running that way is never going to cross their mind. so just because everybody else wears shoes, doesn't make it the best. for some people, being barefoot will be comfortable and perhaps solve some leg/joint problems (like me!), but for others it's just not going to work regardless."

The running shoe has really only been around since the 1970s or so. Before that, everyone ran in minimalist footwear or barefoot.

But I do see what you're saying.

7/29/2009 2:41:59 PM

A frame of 6'5", 250lbs with some wicked chronic knee and ankle pain are not going to buy into something just for the sake of being a fad. I can live with a few weeks of some calf muscle fatigue in exchange for no more joint pain or shin splints.

I actually noticed the biggest difference running on trails at Umstead. I'm significantly faster barefoot. I think the barefoot running style with shorter strides and on-your-toes feel makes for quicker movements on uneven ground.

7/29/2009 7:32:28 PM

One of the real benefits of the minimalist running is that it forces you to be an efficient runner. A lot of runners run on their heels which is an incredibly inefficient way to run. If you run up on your toes like you say, you're running with much better form and much more efficiently. But who's to say that you would not have the same success in a pair of regular shoes if you ran with the same efficiency? It's hard to say.

A lot of the really great marathon runners from africa are so good because they have amazing form and are incredibly efficient runners. This is, no doubt, from running barefoot for most of their lives. But once they are given a running shoe, their times improve drastically, and they still remain efficient runners.

7/29/2009 7:42:57 PM

I know what you mean. I can see myself moving back to a normal shoe for neighborhood/treadmill running, but I'll find the lightest and thinnest heal I can find (I've always used motion control/cushion shoes like the Brooks Beast). I have trouble trying to run barefoot style in my Beasts but I'm still new to the motion so its going to be VFF's for me for awhile. Not sure I could go back to shoes on trail runs though. You just feel the ground so much more and I have so much more stability.

7/29/2009 9:31:37 PM

I definitely believe it. The Beast specifically is mentioned in the LetsRun thread I posted earlier. Really some good general info in there. I have never had a problem running (been playing soccer and ultimate for a long time) and usually wear a light weight low support shoe. Though I am not a very efficient runner, I've been trying to work on it.

7/29/2009 9:41:13 PM