What would you do if a Black Escalade pulled up to you while you were walking to your car and three men in t-shirts jumped out with guns drawn? Would you run? What if they said they were police? Would you keep running?

You'd probably end up dead, just like Georgia Minister Jonathan Ayers.

http://www.ajc.com/news/family-seeks-answers-after-129819.html

Quote :

"Family and friends of a Lavonia minister gunned down Tuesday by an undercover police officer continue to look for answers about how he died. Stephens County Sheriff Randy Shirley said Jonathan Ayers, 29, was not the target of their sting operation and that authorities were looking for a woman they say Ayers dropped off minutes before the shooting. That woman, whose name has not been released, had been charged with cocaine possession and distribution, he said. Ayers’ family maintains he was not involved in illegal drug activity. “He is one of the Godliest men I’ve ever known,” his brother-in-law Matt Carpenter told AccessNorthGa.com. “We’re all shocked and absolutely do not believe he was involved in anything illicit or illegal there.” Carpenter also told AccessNorthGa.com that the family was first informed Ayers died in a traffic accident, and then that he had been shot. Hours later, they learned he died in an officer-involved shooting. Shirley said Wednesday that Ayers dropped off the sting suspect in downtown Toccoa around 2:30 p.m. and that two agents from the joint task force -- composed of officers from Stephens, Habersham and Rabun counties -- followed the pastor and attempted to question him. WNEG-TV has surveillance video showing Ayers casually entering a Shell convenience store in Toccoa around 2:30 p.m. According to that video, a black SUV carrying undercover officers pulls into the parking lot after Ayers left the store. The pastor tried to avoid them, Shirley said Wednesday, striking one of the agents after putting his car in reverse. “They yelled, ‘Police. Stop,’” Shirley said. Witnesses to the incident also said the officers identified themselves, said Georgia Bureau of Investigation spokesman John Bankhead. Shirley said Wednesday that Ayers maneuvered his car towards another agent in a “threatening manner.” However, that is unclear from the video. Shirley first said that one shot was fired by one of the three agents on the scene, striking the pastor in the upper torso. WNEG-TV reports that Shirley said the agent fired two shots into the car. Ayers drove off before losing control of the vehicle a block away, striking a telephone pole, Shirley said. Ayers was pastor of Shoal Creek Baptist Church in Lavonia. On his blog, he wrote, “I have three loves in my life: Jesus Christ, my wife Abby, and the Church.” The couple was expecting their first child. Shirley would not reveal the identity of the woman arrested in the sting. The agent struck by the pastor’s vehicle was treated and released from a local hospital, Shirley said. “Jonathan would have wanted to witness to the police officers involved in the shooting,” his family said in a statement. The GBI is investigating the shooting. The task force agents involved have been placed on administrative leave with pay, Shirley said."

The War On Drugs is a broken system that perpetuates cowboy gung-ho military style activity from local police departments. This man could have been stopped by a patrol car with one officer. If that wasn't enough, they could have sent three patrol cars. At least then the Minister would have known he was being stopped by police and not by three strangers armed who just shouted "Police."

I'm calling it here and now, "The three officers were cleared of any wrongdoing."

9/3/2009 11:17:32 AM

yeah that sucks.

but in all honestly I would piss myself and just stand there like an idiot. So if they weren't police I would be dead. So fucked either way I guess.

9/3/2009 11:44:02 AM

Not enough info to draw logical conclusions so [speculate mode].

Quote :

"The pastor tried to avoid them, Shirley said Wednesday, striking one of the agents after putting his car in reverse."

<> "running away". Granted, I don't think shooting him was the appropriate response, however, since he's now a suspect of at least vehicular assault trying to flee the scene of a crime. The question becomes, what should they have done...

You're right, it would have been a much prettier situation to begin with if undercovers didn't try to question him, but isn't that kind of the point of undercovers? Catch people when they're not expecting cops?

Nothing from the article indicated that the cops jumped out of the SUV guns blazing, but like I said above, more details are needed.

9/3/2009 11:47:19 AM

Quote :

"since he's now a suspect of at least vehicular assault trying to flee the scene of a crime"

But this is circular logic. What crime? Resisting arrest? Vehicular assault? For all he knew, he was defending himself from three guys with guns. How can he be guilty of a crime when the officers' actions directly contributed to him committing such crime?

9/3/2009 11:50:20 AM

The devil is in the details.

What did the cops do to make him run one of them over? Did they draw their guns before or after the man ran them over. This is not evident from the article.

It is possible, given the info we have, that they identified themselves as cops and he freaked out and kicked it in reverse before guns were even involved.

What was he doing with the girl who was the suspect of the investigation anyway? Maybe he was doing something that would give him motivation to avoid the cops if they showed up. After all he is a minister with the baby on the way, right?

I don't like the cops any more than the next guy, but this story has more to it for sure....

9/3/2009 11:55:56 AM

I think the point is that how can you believe anyone is a police officer?

Are you allowed to defend yourself if a man with a gun breaks into your home? What if he says he's a police officer? Do you have to put down your gun?

This type of situation has happened before, and people who have shot police have been charged with attempted murder, and officers who have shot citizens defending themselves have been cleared of any wrong doing.

9/3/2009 12:00:49 PM

Quote :

"The pastor tried to avoid them, Shirley said Wednesday, striking one of the agents after putting his car in reverse. “They yelled, ‘Police. Stop,’” Shirley said. Witnesses to the incident also said the officers identified themselves, said Georgia Bureau of Investigation spokesman John Bankhead. Shirley said Wednesday that Ayers maneuvered his car towards another agent in a “threatening manner.” "

9/3/2009 12:01:39 PM

Ah, yes. Clearly the testimony of a man who just shot the suspect is one of complete honesty and truth. He would have no reason to cover his behind.

9/3/2009 12:03:17 PM

Quote :

"POLICE STATES RULE"

9/3/2009 12:03:43 PM

Quote :

"Witnesses to the incident "

9/3/2009 12:07:29 PM

Quote :

"MY COUSIN VINNY"

9/3/2009 12:08:44 PM

Quote :

"Witnesses to the incident also said the officers identified themselves"

Witnesses said that the three men in plain clothes waving guns shouted, "Police."

The officer is the only one who has stated that the man headed towards them in a threatening manner. Re-read the article.

9/3/2009 12:12:03 PM

Quote :

"IS A FUCKING MOVIE"

9/3/2009 12:12:09 PM

Quote :

"What was he doing with the girl who was the suspect of the investigation anyway? Maybe he was doing something that would give him motivation to avoid the cops if they showed up. After all he is a minister with the baby on the way, right?"

Church-ley people often give rides to the poor people who frequent the church and lack means of transportation themselves. Then the rest of the details are correlated. Destitute people looking for help from places like churches are often cocaine addicts.

Yes, it makes perfect sense that he was innocently giving a crack whore a ride without any involvement or shady business on his part whatsoever.

9/3/2009 12:14:30 PM

If some dude(s) come charging thru my front door yelling "police!" with guns drawn, I'm going to defend myself. Why? How do I know they aren't robbers acting as officers? It's been done before. My initial reaction is going to defend myself. I don't do anything illegal so I have no worries that would put me in this situation unless it was either 1) a really bad accident on behalf of the police force or 2)It was indeed a robbery with people impersonating police officers.

As for this article, there's too much speculation to say what I'd do. It's all situation dependent.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 12:18 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2009 12:17:11 PM

keep in mind he wasnt killed because he gave a suspect a ride. He was killed for his actions directly related to the officers. Did he hit the officer with his car or just shove him?

9/3/2009 12:17:24 PM

Quote :

"Shirley said, outside the Shell station, the plain-clothes officers identified themselves with a badge. The officers said that Ayers put his car in reverse and struck an agent. They said they opened fire on Ayers when he drove toward the second officer. Two shots were fired in the car, one hit Ayers. The officers said Ayers sped away and crashed about a half mile from the Shell station. They said they found him conscious and alert, but he died a short time later."

http://www.wneg32.tv/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1490:surveillance-video-shows-moments-before-shooting&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=18

9/3/2009 12:17:27 PM

You would be shot dead. If you weren't shot dead you would have been charged with attempted murder of a police officer.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 12:18 PM. Reason : ^^^]

9/3/2009 12:18:01 PM

Quote :

"Witnesses said that the three men in plain clothes waving guns shouted, "Police." The officer is the only one who has stated that the man headed towards them in a threatening manner. Re-read the article."

Even if the officer's testimony is entirely true, this reverend did absolutely nothing unreasonable. The only thing that could change that is if these officers had at least flashed badges or been in police uniforms.

And even the badge isn't good enough. Fuck that. I can get a badge that looks just as real from any distance over 5 feet.

If he threw it into reverse and tried to hit them with the car - good for him. The police are just giving more ammunition to bad guys. "Hey, just yell 'Police!' with no other identification, and citizens will do whatever you want! Have fun, criminals!"

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 12:20 PM. Reason : a]

9/3/2009 12:18:28 PM

Quote :

"If he threw it into reverse and tried to hit them with the car - good for him."

yep, and all evidence shows it worked out pretty well for him

9/3/2009 12:20:38 PM

Hey, doing the right thing doesn't always end up well. It also doesn't change the fact that it was the right thing to do.

If these weren't officers, and he had every reason to suspect they were not, the ending could have been much worse than simply death-by-cop. It could have been kidnapping or torture for the hell of it or some plan to get him first, and then go after his family. Who knows? The best bet is to resist however you can, flee, and hope.

9/3/2009 12:23:09 PM

Quote :

"If he threw it into reverse and tried to hit them with the car - good for him."

Unless you think you can run over all three guys before any of them could get a shot off, how would that ever be a good idea?

I mean that in the case that they are either good guys or bad guys.

How does that end with you not getting shot?

9/3/2009 12:25:30 PM

It depends on the circumstances. I'm assuming that backing into them was a necessary part of leaving in the vehicle - like backing out of a parking space you pulled forward into, or getting the car to point in the right direction to get out of there the fastest. I would highly doubt that he got in his car and decided "Hmmm, I'm going to try to run these guys over in reverse, and then if that doesn't work I'll drive away." One was likely incidental to the other.

9/3/2009 12:28:18 PM

The question then, is if you run over an undercover cop should the cops not shoot you? Is it fair game to run over cops if you didn't know they were cops?

God, I haven't read anything yet to indicate that the cops jumped out with their guns drawn, and I can't get the ghetto surveillance video to load. Are you seriously suggesting that if an SUV rolls up on you and three people get out and identify themselves as cops you're going to run one of them over trying to get away?

Please, everyone quit using the term "guns drawn" until it's known that this is actually the way it went down.

Quote :

"Church-ley people often give rides to the poor people who frequent the church and lack means of transportation themselves. Then the rest of the details are correlated. Destitute people looking for help from places like churches are often cocaine addicts. Yes, it makes perfect sense that he was innocently giving a crack whore a ride without any involvement or shady business on his part whatsoever."

I honestly couldn't tell if you're being facetious here.

I also like that his family insists that he "would have wanted to witness to the police officers involved in the shooting" but instead ran one of them over with his car.

9/3/2009 12:31:04 PM

Quote :

"The question then, is if you run over an undercover cop should the cops not shoot you? Is it fair game to run over cops if you didn't know they were cops?"

YES! Undercover cops take a risk. They want most people to believe they are not police officers. They can't have their cake and eat it, too.

If most people do not believe they are cops, they need to be ready for full response to their actions as if they were not cops. You can't have it both ways.

Quote :

"Are you seriously suggesting that if an SUV rolls up on you and three people get out and identify themselves as cops you're going to run one of them over trying to get away?"

It depends a lot on their demeanor. If they are calm and peaceful in how they carry themselves, sure. But if they're running at me aggressively and shouting while waving what could be fake badges? I'll do some combination of resist and flee, whatever seems best at the moment.

Quote :

"I honestly couldn't tell if you're being facetious here. I also like that his family insists that he "would have wanted to witness to the police officers involved in the shooting" but instead ran one of them over with his car."

I work with a program called Jobs For Life in the ghetto of Durham, helping bums, addicts, and other folks change their ways and hold steady jobs. I've given plenty of rides to get them back home. I know there are risks involved in that, and I accept it. But to have to think about this risk is ridiculous.

I only share that to say that yes, there are LOTS of churches that regularly give very shady people rides back into the ghetto.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 12:42 PM. Reason : a]

9/3/2009 12:39:43 PM

Quote :

"YES! Undercover cops take a risk. They want most people to believe they are not police officers. They can't have their cake and eat it, too. "

LoL. Do you agree with the following statment: "An undercover cop who is threatened by a deadly weapon should not respond with lethal force because they knew the risks of going undercover beforehand."

Quote :

"I work with a program called Jobs For Life in the ghetto of Durham, helping bums, addicts, and other folks change their ways and hold steady jobs. I've given plenty of rides to get them back home. I know there are risks involved in that, and I accept it. But to have to think about this risk is ridiculous. I only share that to say that yes, there are LOTS of churches that regularly give very shady people rides back into the ghetto."

Would you say then, based on the very little evidence that we currently have, that it was more likely that he was giving this poor girl a ride back to the ghetto or doing something less savory?

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2009 12:43:39 PM

I'd probably hit at least one of them center mass before the others shot me dead

9/3/2009 12:46:43 PM

Quote :

"LoL. Do you agree with the following statment: "An undercover cop who is threatened by a deadly weapon should not respond with lethal force because they knew the risks of going undercover beforehand.""

In self-defense, sure, but the context here is not whether the undercover cop should shoot back. Remember, the undercover cop STARTED the confrontation intentionally appearing not to be a police officer.

So, yes, I can easily understand that he would "return" fire....but he cannot then use his status as a police officer to charge the guy with assaulting an officer, or pretend that in any way the other guy was not justified in resisting him.

Quote :

"Would you say then, based on the very little evidence that we currently have, that it was more likely that he was giving this poor girl a ride back to the ghetto or doing something less savory?"

Absolutely. There is no question in my mind he was more likely to be helping this girl out in some way than being involved in her 'side-business.' I'm as skeptical and cynical as anyone - but the sheer number of churches and programs like this, compared to the number of drug-dealing pastors, makes it pretty clear in my mind.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 12:50 PM. Reason : a]

9/3/2009 12:47:49 PM

Should it be considered assault if the Police officer put his body in the way of the moving vehicle? Should driving toward an officer that has purposely put himself in your path be assault?

9/3/2009 12:51:46 PM

If you can watch the video, even without sound, you can tell when the Officer gets out of the Escalade that he has his gun holstered on his hip, or is holding it in the same location as a holster.



And Ayers' car was more or less pointed towards a driveway in the gas station that would directly lead away from the Escalda and the cops. He pulled up, backed around the escalade, turned 180, and drove out of the opposite driveway.

9/3/2009 12:52:45 PM

Wow. Just looked at the video. From everything you can see on the tape, this is even worse than it sounded in the article.

Those police officers approach the vehicle and carry themselves exactly like the ghetto thugs they're supposedly after.

9/3/2009 12:57:24 PM

Let me present to the naysayers a different situation.

Instead of arriving in an unmarked Black Escalade in plain clothes, the officers instead show up in a standard patrol car with the lights on dressed in the standard blue uniforms with the badges clearly displayed on the uniforms. They calmly walk up to the gentleman as he is leaving, without their guns drawn. They ask the gentleman if he can help answer some of their questions.

Why is this not the preferred situation? Why should we not reprimand the officers for not doing things this way?

9/3/2009 12:57:24 PM

Man, we really don't have enough info. on this sitch.

It is entirely possible he was giving the woman a ride and dropped her off. When the Escalade pulled up, he thought they were dangerous criminals and tried to defend himself.

He might have been dropping her off after insufflating cocaine and receiving oral sex from her. The Escalade pulled up, he didn't wanna get busted by the cops, and tried to "defend" himself.

Either way, he was not the target of the sting operation, and now he's dead. Surely, his death, among the many other deaths, merits a reevaluation of the way we choose to enforce the law.


The War on Drugs hurts the police and the public. There has to be a smarter way to handle the drug problem. I mean, it creates revenues for police departments, courts, prisons, etc...but that reason alone isn't enough to justify this madness. There's another way to approach and address the issue of drugs that will be even more beneficial to everybody.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 1:00 PM. Reason : ]

9/3/2009 12:58:28 PM

^^I would guess that there's some concern that the suspect would re-enter the gas station and shoot a bunch of completely innocent hostages.

9/3/2009 1:00:30 PM

Ah, yes. I suppose it's completely reasonable to assume a Minister with no criminal record would execute innocent hostages.

9/3/2009 1:01:33 PM

Quote :

"Those police officers approach the vehicle and carry themselves exactly like the ghetto thugs they're supposedly after."

You must have a different video than I do because it's hard to make out. It looks like the driver's side backseat cop got out with his hand on his hip. I'm speculating at this point that the officer identified himself (no badge) based on witness accounts, but there's no sound so I'm not sure. Immediately Ayers guns it and runs one of them down.

Would you disagree with this assessment of the video? Does it look like the cop drew his gun before or after Ayers hit the gas?

9/3/2009 1:01:49 PM

^That driver side backseat guy follows the car around the front of the Escalade with his hand still on his hip. One of the other cops is riding on the back bumper of the car. I don't know about #3.

9/3/2009 1:03:35 PM

Quote :

"Would you disagree with this assessment of the video? Does it look like the cop drew his gun before or after Ayers hit the gas?"

I would pretty much agree. It looks like he's ready to draw his weapon, but may not already have it out. But, I would add to your assessment: the officer is in no way the picture of calmness and order you would hope for. Looking at the way he moved and carried himself, he's acting like a guy who is ready to get it on physically. Combine that with only a verbal identification, unmarked car, plain-clothes, etc. - I don't disagree really with your assessment, but believe the facts easily justify how this pastor reacted.

[Edited on September 3, 2009 at 1:06 PM. Reason : a]

9/3/2009 1:06:04 PM

Quote :

"Ah, yes. I suppose it's completely reasonable to assume a Minister with no criminal record would execute innocent hostages."

All criminals start out without a criminal record, don't they?



Wouldn't it be just as reasonable to assume the guys with holstered guns and badges yelling 'Stop, police!' are actually police?



I mean, you said before that they could be robbers dress up as cops, right? How often does that happen? In a video surveilled public area with several eye-witnesses and the potential target having enough money in his wallet to risk a decade in prison?

9/3/2009 1:11:33 PM

One thing that is obvious from the video is that all this happened in a span of about 3 seconds, so rational thought is out the window. I'm not surprised that he went into "fight-or-flight" mode, he's an animal like the rest of us.

Quote :

"I don't disagree really with your assessment, but believe the facts easily justify how this pastor reacted."

I think it's possible I could have reacted the same way, but it's just as likely I would have froze up. The question then is were the cops justified in shooting him. It looks to me like he assaulted them with a deadly weapon and then attempted to flee. What should officers of the law (even plain clothes) do in this situation?

9/3/2009 1:14:56 PM

Ok I just watched the video, and I am convinced he was simply trying to escape. The officers only got hit/threatened by the car because they were swarming it while it was moving.

Typically, I take the sides of police officers in stories like these, but not this time. It does look like they initially took a moment to identify themselves, but I think they were acting way too aggressive for stopping someone who isn't a suspect.

9/3/2009 1:17:54 PM

Quote :

"What should officers of the law (even plain clothes) do in this situation?"

Move out of the way of the car? That seems like a rational thing to do.

9/3/2009 1:45:50 PM

^Why, so he can leave the scene and endanger anyone that happens to be out and about in the area?

9/3/2009 1:49:03 PM

They look like a bunch of thugs. Too bad he didn't run a few of them over.

9/3/2009 1:53:07 PM

Another article: http://www.examiner.com/x-19719-Southern-Baptist-Examiner~y2009m9d3-Slain-Georgia-pastor-was-killed-during-prostitutiondrug-investigation

Quote :

"An unnamed female, who was seen exiting Ayers' car before the shooting incident, was eventually arrested and charge with selling cocaine, but additional charges could be filed, including prostitution, according to the district attorney. The relationship between Ayers and the woman has not been established, but Ayers car was seen at the hotel twice before police followed him to the Shell gas station which itself is in a known drug area."

9/3/2009 1:57:58 PM

See it depends... if it was an Escalade, I would run.

But if it was a...

Cayenne Turbo S
Q7 V12 TDI
X5 M
ML63 AMG
Touareg W12
Grand Cherokee SRT-8

...I would be like, let me test drive that shit yo!

9/3/2009 2:12:20 PM

ha was the guy white?

9/3/2009 3:03:59 PM

Ayers was, as you say, colored.

9/3/2009 3:05:15 PM

Surely you jest.

9/3/2009 3:10:32 PM

Colored what? Manila?

9/3/2009 3:12:34 PM