If you're in one of these districts, have you given any thought to voting or who you might vote for on the board of education?

What's going down is kind of a big deal. I even found us mentioned in the Miami Herald!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1259922.html

Anyway, I bet you guys know how I feel about the coming election. We got these kickass integrated schools, and it's really important we keep them that way. We're one of the last remaining counties that still integrates--we switched to socioeconomic status after the courts banned racial integration. And it's not just about diversity, by the way. Keeping the schools balanced is actually good for business. Some folks may not know this, but a large part of the original push for integration came from business owners who wanted to keep the whole county in good shape. Check out the Wiki for a quick history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_County_Public_Schools

Our schools are totally awesome, and we're gonna have to make some changes to accommodate growth, but we do not need to deintegrate. If you feel the same way and happen to live in the appropriate districts, here's a quick voting guide:

District 1: Rita Rakestraw
District 2: Horace Tart
District 7: Karen Simon
District 9: Lois Nixon

One last link for y'all's consideration:

http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/cms/2009/09/30/will-wake-turn-back-the-clock/


I gotta go to bed, but I look forward to gettin our dicussion on tomorrow! I got another paper due so I'm sure I'll be posting like a mofo.

10/1/2009 1:09:09 AM

Id hate to live in District 9. Fuck a prawn.

10/1/2009 9:15:20 AM

I just want to know if any of them would support the teaching of Intelligent Design in our school system.

10/1/2009 9:20:07 AM

Now that I have a child I actually give two shits about this issue, but I don't know enough about the socioeconomic status integration to make an opinion.

Does this mean that if I apply to have my kid put in a year-round or magnet school they could potentially deny her based on the fact that they need to fill those spots with poorer students?

Seconded on the Intelligent Design concern. I would teach her myself before letting her attend a science class with Intelligent Design even mentioned.

10/1/2009 10:38:30 AM

I was just reading a N&O article related to this:

Quote :

"On school vote hangs our future On Tuesday, Wake County voters will cast ballots in four Board of Education contests, and the future of one of the nation's last efforts to create genuine classroom diversity hangs in the balance. More than 50 years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unanimously that racially segregated schools were inherently unequal, no matter how much money any district spent. If a new anti-diversity majority takes control of the school board, it could dismantle a recognized model of educational access and equity for all children regardless of race, class, religion or ethnicity. Wake County would then probably follow Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) backward in history toward racial and economic resegregation. Many Wake County voters ask whether the current diversity policy is worth the constant movement of children, especially if there is not always data showing how the program improves the achievement of disadvantaged students. The question is based on several inaccurate assumptions. First, most of the Wake County students who are "bused" to various schools are moved because of population growth and overcrowding, not for diversity. Second, because the school system cannot show a straight line leading from diverse schools to increased test scores for nearly every child, critics conclude the current policy is a failure. There are fundamental historical reasons for preserving economically and racially balanced schools. To put the case bluntly: Educating children in diverse classrooms is morally right, educationally beneficial and politically necessary. According to a central tenet of the modern civil rights movement, it is morally good for children to interact with other children from different economic, racial, religious and ethnic backgrounds. While young people can learn tolerance in many settings, our schools should certainly be a key place where the diversity of America with all its opportunities and challenges are right in front of every child's eyes. The inextricable link between diversity and learning for a lifetime also needs to be stressed. One of the primary goals of educating children to succeed as productive citizens in a multicultural nation and competitive global economy is precisely to expose them to diverse student bodies. We fail our children when we push them out into a complex and interconnected world after they have spent more than a decade in increasingly homogenous and re-segregated schools. Finally, the current diversity policy is an honest acknowledgment of how politics works. If you do not keep schools diverse, you will not have a broad population of parents to advocate for those schools."

You can read the full article here:
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/columnists_blogs/story/119631.html

10/1/2009 11:02:32 AM

I hate it when people refer to editorials as articles. I'd be very interested to see some data regarding whatever metric you feel like showing

Quote :

"Keeping the schools balanced is actually good for business. "

and

Quote :

"Our schools are totally awesome"

Are they awesome *because* of the integration and if so why? Is it simply because it is "morally right" to integrate? That editorial didn't really seem like more than an appeal to emotion.

10/1/2009 11:30:30 AM

Quote :

" Published Thu, Oct 01, 2009 02:00 AM Modified Wed, Sep 30, 2009 05:18 PM On school vote hangs our future Article Comments (2) "

Just using N&O's terminology for the tab it was listed under. I think the "opinion/columnists_blogs/story" makes it rather explicit what kind it is.

10/1/2009 11:41:44 AM

Sorry for calling you out, man. I'm just interested in some hard facts about this issue rather than "do it because it's right." That opinion column didn't really provide any, and my cursory googling isn't pulling up anything useful either.

10/1/2009 11:45:48 AM

God, disco_stu, in terms of intelligent design, I came up through the WCPSS (excepting a few years of elementary), and I never learned a lick about creationism or intelligent design. If it was mentioned, it was so brief that I don't recall. I I don't even think that issue's really been up for debate in this area.

disco_stu, as to your concerns about magnet school acceptance. The original point of the program is to get affluent kids to attend school in much less affluent neighborhoods...so spots are actually being saved for affluent children, not poorer children. These slots are still highly competitive, but I know plenty of kids who got in. It's your best bet to get them into a magnet school early on (middle school at least).

disco_stu, if you don't keep the schools balanced, all the affluent folks move to one area or a select few areas, and businesses in the other areas suffer. It's a fairly simple combo of economics and sociology.

Quote :

"disco_stu: Are they awesome *because* of the integration and if so why? Is it simply because it is "morally right" to integrate? That editorial didn't really seem like more than an appeal to emotion."

The integration does contribute to their awesomeness. Schoolteachers love it because it means the socioeconomic needs of their students are balanced. Instead of walking into a classroom where none of the kids have had quality ($$$) pre-K, they can be sure they're going into a class where only a few of the kids are struggling against those odds, and it's an obstacle they can actually surmount. This fact is bore out statistically: not only do all of our students overall do better on testing than students in other counties, students of lower SES do slightly (but significantly) better in Wake County than lower SES students in other counties. And it's in large part because the teachers actually have a chance since they're not totally overwhelmed by entire classes of impoverished students. The good teachers know about our situation, and they seek our schools out (unlike other areas, a lot of the teaching slots in Wake County are actually competitive--the way it should be).

In terms of whether or not it is "morally right," we are way passed that as an argument. It's a good argument and definitely persuasive forty or fifty years ago, but now it's just about smart schools and good business. Spread the less affluent kids out and spread the more affluent kids out, maintain balance so teachers and schools won't crumble under the burden and become "bad" schools, and businesses won't suffer as their part of town becomes the "bad" part of town. Give every kid as real a shot as possible with access to strong, competitive classes at every school with strong, content teachers, administrators, and advisers with lots of information about college and scholarships.

If we deintegrate, it is inevitable that we will end up with good schools and bad schools (and no amount of money can fix the bad schools). The bad schools become blights on the community, dragging the areas down economically. The kids get trapped, and their chance at success drops significantly, which hurts all of us. If you don't believe this to be true, just look at Charlotte, Greensboro, the entire state of Florida, shit, the entire country...we are practically the last county standing. It should come as no surprise that we are often cited as the best place to live in the United States. It would be a big mistake to ignore the role that our integrated schools play in that fact.

10/1/2009 12:42:51 PM

Quote :

"God, disco_stu, in terms of intelligent design, I came up through the WCPSS (excepting a few years of elementary), and I never learned a lick about creationism or intelligent design. If it was mentioned, it was so brief that I don't recall. I I don't even think that issue's really been up for debate in this area."

Well, yes, so did I, but with the movements starting up in some areas in the south (Texas, Kansas), I just want to be sure I'm only voting for those who would vehemently defend the curriculum from a religious influence.

10/1/2009 12:47:33 PM

I keep wanting to click on page 9.

10/1/2009 1:01:13 PM

^^Yeah, I feel you. I didn't realize the Independent had come out with a voting guide so I actually researched all the candidates and went to their websites to glean the appropriate ones for my cause, and I didn't see anything anywhere about intelligent design or creationism.

^AHA


Sidenote...there's a guy named Chris Malone running in District 1. I found nothing on him except his name on the roll call at some libertarian meetings. Rita Rakestraw has come out for integration so I recommended her in that district. But I know there are some libertarian folks on here who might wanna vote for this Malone guy...if he wins, it could be a good jump-off for him to move into politics and shit. I dunno. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 1:06 PM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 1:06:30 PM

The only experience I've had with this is my sister used to get bussed out to some shithole school in winston salem for this crap because they put the gifted program out there. They spent their entire time in their own classes never interaction with the other kids except for lunch.

All it does is waste money in order to cover up the problem by distorting the stats of the shitty school. Better to fix the shitty school than ship in good students.

10/1/2009 1:22:27 PM

Your premise is flawed.

The students, much more-so than any other variable, determine the quality of the school.

I've taught in a county that didn't bus, and the disparity between the good schools and the school I taught in was enormous-- and it had little or nothing to do with the quality of teaching.

10/1/2009 1:26:48 PM

another one in favor of the busing, for the simple fact that it more evenly distributes wealth throughout the city because families aren't moving into the one neighborhood that has the best schools.

10/1/2009 1:42:16 PM

Quote :

"I keep wanting to click on page 9."

Lol, 9 pages for something like the well being of local schools, kids, & businesses... we save the big discussions for important things like what Sarah Palin is up to these days, or whether or not health care reform can really make you into a nazi.

10/1/2009 1:48:02 PM

Pfft. Schools will get by just fine whether TWW argues about them or not.

Arguing on the internet about Sarah Palin matters

10/1/2009 1:53:17 PM

BridgetSPK...do you have children in school? Well I do and Wake Co. School totally SUCK!!! I for one am for going back to neighborhood school. Race doesn't play a part in it. I just want my son to be able to go to the closest school to our neighborhood. This busing kids all around is dumb as hell and wastes funds on gas!!

10/1/2009 1:55:44 PM

Quote :

"Wake Co. School totally SUCK!!!"

They're actually pretty good. If you can't respect that your whole perspective is wack

10/1/2009 1:57:41 PM

Being against busing does not mean you are against integration. There are valid quality of life concerns too. It is a shame for a kid to have an hour bus ride each way when it could be 30 minutes. That hour a day could be spent on exercise, homework or quality time with the child's family.
It is a shame that parents without excess time, money, or reliable transportation have to drive across town to meet with school officials or pick up their kid when the child is sick.

And, believe it or not, some of us don't blindly accept that forced diversity is better for anyone. I really don't know what the kids get out of it. I personally think it is something we do so that adults can feel better about themselves.

Who do I vote for if I live in the Off Kaplan district and I am against busing?

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 2:19 PM. Reason : l]

10/1/2009 2:17:20 PM

God fuck politics. I can't find any meaningful information on District 9 candidates that isn't totally slanted. Apparently Debra Goldman is a right-wing nazi and Lois Nixon is an environmentalist hippie.

^I think you're district 5. http://www.wcpss.net/Board/maps.html

Hey, does anyone know how long a board term lasts?

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 2:28 PM. Reason : I was wrong.]

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 2:32 PM. Reason : did I say 6, I meant 5.]

10/1/2009 2:26:03 PM

Quote :

"Who do I vote for if I live in the Off Kaplan district and I am against busing?"

http://www.sboe.state.nc.us/VoterLookup.aspx?Feature=voterinfo


I'm not gonna tell anyone who to vote for, but you can look at your ballot beforehand and check out the candidates to make your own decision.

All I get is mayor and city council.

10/1/2009 2:45:06 PM

Ive been following the BoE race a bit and all in all I find the candidate pool fairly weak. That said, I absolutely cannot find any reason to get behind the anti-diversity cohort that is putting such effort into this election.

As I view it, this cohort has a very narrow view by virtue of them being parents of students in WCPSS. All of the candidates that they are putting up are affluent and have not resided in this area for very long. Information about their positions on anything but anti-diversity is non-existent. I dont think that they offer anything substantial to the school board that any other parent can't. I do not get the impression that they have any idea what the other challenges in the school system are. Frankly, I would respect them more if they just came out and said what I believe to be the case: they dont want their kids going to school with poor kids (read: poor minorities).

I would absolutely get behind their idea of neighborhood schools (ie: 4 Elementary schools, 2 middle schools, and 1 high school serving one community) if the government subsidized housing were more evenly spread throughout the county. I believe that the role of the school board is to strive for healthy schools across the district. The idea of neighborhood schools as the cohort envisions them would result in a number of failing schools. Prior to the merger of Raleigh City Schools and Wake County Schools in the 70s there were neighborhood schools. The merger and subsequent diversity program resulted in much stronger schools across the board.

Some candidates have suggested that eliminating busing and sending kids to schools close to home would encourage lower socio-economic parents to become more involved in the schools. Research, local history, and common sense would suggest quite the opposite. Many of these parents either don't care about their child's education enough to get involved just as many simply don't have the time due to working multiple jobs or long hours to make ends meet.

I was particularly turned off by a candidate in my district recently during a forum when she stated that the dropout rate in the county is 22% based on the fact that the graduation rate is 78%. You absolutely cannot extrapolate the dropout rate from the graduation rate alone. At best, she is being disingenuous thinking that voters don't know the difference and at worst, she doesn't know the difference. Either way, thats not a person I want in office.

10/1/2009 3:22:08 PM

If a candidate's position can be threatened by a less qualified candidate simply because they disagree on a single issue, then maybe they should re-think their position on that issue. Ignoring your constituents' desires and taking the attitude that you know more about what is best for their family/community than they do does not lend itself well to the democratic process.

10/1/2009 3:31:40 PM

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6052388/

I liked this as a reference, as well as each candidate's webpage. I believe I'll vote for the bleeding-heart liberal hippie environmentalist in district 9 simply because she spent more than half a thought on explaining her view. See SkiSalomon's post..this has been my finding in my 3 hours of cursory google searching. If you're talking about the September 9th forum, one of my candidates didn't even attend! (says she had "flu-like symptoms").

And I guess the bottom line is : it doesn't matter how shitty of a public school my kid gets in because of dispersion. I will be ultimately responsible for my child's teaching, no matter what school she goes to.

Oh sweet, I found WRAL's video of Cary's town forum.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 3:41 PM. Reason : .]http://www.wral.com/news/local/politics/video/6076425/

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM. Reason : .]

10/1/2009 3:37:49 PM

Quote :

"Shaggy: The only experience I've had with this is my sister used to get bussed out to some shithole school in winston salem for this crap because they put the gifted program out there. They spent their entire time in their own classes never interaction with the other kids except for lunch. All it does is waste money in order to cover up the problem by distorting the stats of the shitty school. Better to fix the shitty school than ship in good students."

It doesn’t cover up the problem. It alleviates the problem: the lower SES kids actually do a little better when integrated, and all the kids do better overall.

Also, it’s important to note that you can’t fix a shitty school. Other places have tried and failed. Dudley in Greensboro is a good example of this sad reality. Greensboro poured millions of extra dollars into that school (largely out of guilt over its poor condition), and the kids are still failing. No amount of money or well-meaning people can fix a shitty school…the best option is to not have shitty schools in the first place.

And, by the way, Winston Salem is nothing like Wake County in its policies. They deintegrated a looong time ago…it’s not shocking you describe their magnet school as a shithole while Enloe in Raleigh is described as one of the best high schools in the country.

Quote :

"sparky: BridgetSPK...do you have children in school? Well I do and Wake Co. School totally SUCK!!! I for one am for going back to neighborhood school. Race doesn't play a part in it. I just want my son to be able to go to the closest school to our neighborhood. This busing kids all around is dumb as hell and wastes funds on gas!!"

No, but I came up through WCPSS, and I never had a problem with my bus ride. My sister didn’t either, and she drove close to 50 minutes a day to get to Enloe.

Furthermore, because of growth patterns in this county it is impossible for every student to go to the closest school. Somebody is going to have to ride farther than somebody else because the closest school isn’t always big enough to accommodate everybody who lives closest to it.

Quote :

"Skack: Being against busing does not mean you are against integration. There are valid quality of life concerns too. It is a shame for a kid to have an hour bus ride each way when it could be 30 minutes. That hour a day could be spent on exercise, homework or quality time with the child's family. It is a shame that parents without excess time, money, or reliable transportation have to drive across town to meet with school officials or pick up their kid when the child is sick."

Unless you apply for a magnet program, it is highly unlikely that your bus ride will ever be an hour long. We’re not in the business of shipping kids across the county. In fact, bus rides are extended an average of fifteen minutes in order to achieve school integration.

Growth complicates the system and does result in some rare absurdities, but they’re doing damn good to keep up and maintain one of the better school systems in the country and the absolute best in the state.

Quote :

"Skack: And, believe it or not, some of us don't blindly accept that forced diversity is better for anyone. I really don't know what the kids get out of it. I personally think it is something we do so that adults can feel better about themselves."

Well, it’s not just for the kids or for adults to feel good about themselves. It’s good for the whole county. If you’re already set up in a comfortable, super nice part of town, and you know your area isn’t going to suffer, then good for you. Keep in mind that other parts of the county will suffer, and it will eventually get back to everyone.

Furthermore, it’s important to note that while some parts suffer, other parts will do really, really well in that housing prices will likely go up simply because they are near the “good” schools. So we all may feel like hot shit right now, but some of us may be kidding ourselves if we think we can compete with RTP Ph.D.s for the housing near the good schools.

I’m studying to be a schoolteacher, and if we deintegrate, I may not have enough income to get into a good school district. I can hope to catch a job at one of the good schools and sneak my kid in that way. Or I can rent in the good area. Or I can work at a private school in exchange for decreased tuition for my child. But I think it’s foolish to assume that you’ll somehow come out on the golden end of the stick in the good neighborhood with the good schools…for that, you will have to pay and pay a lot.

10/1/2009 3:41:13 PM

Quote :

"Also, it’s important to note that you can’t fix a shitty school. Other places have tried and failed. Dudley in Greensboro is a good example of this sad reality. Greensboro poured millions of extra dollars into that school (largely out of guilt over its poor condition), and the kids are still failing. No amount of money or well-meaning people can fix a shitty school…the best option is to not have shitty schools in the first place."

While I agree with your thesis that we should not have shitty schools to begin with, it is absolutely not true that you can't fix a shitty school. Despite the inefficient implementation that DPI is using in their turnaround schools across the state, many are showing significant progress after just two to three years in turnaround.

10/1/2009 3:51:41 PM

Quote :

"We’re not in the business of shipping kids across the county."

Sorry for these long aced links, I hope they work:
http://wwwgis2.wcpss.net/prod/mapscript/WCMapscript.php?MainOption=FindNodes&NodeType=BASE&MagProg=&SchoolInfo=408+EAST+MILLBROOK+MIDDLE&ProgramTitle=Base+Attendance+Area+(CURRENT)&MagName=&CalendarYear=2009-2010

http://wwwgis2.wcpss.net/prod/mapscript/WCMapscript.php?MainOption=FindNodes&NodeType=YR&MagProg=MYRRD&SchoolInfo=399+DURANT+ROAD+MIDDLE&ProgramTitle=Year-round+Calendar+Application+Transportation+Area&MagName=&CalendarYear=2009-2010

Those are my district traditional and year-round calendar schools. The bus trips get pretty long.





I'm not opposed to the policy that Wake uses to populate schools, and I understand how the growth has affected the whole situation, and how complex the whole assignment plan gets. My company gets a lot of work building schools in Wake county, the dynamics are something I am familiar with.

At the same time, I can understand how a lot of people in Wake county don't like the degree to which the diversity policy affects schools assignments over the proximity of the school. The neighborhood school crowd isn't going to win this fight outright, but I believe the school board should take a few steps towards a central ground on the issue.

10/1/2009 4:14:12 PM

My problem with the neighborhood school crowd is the fact they their constituents (and their kids) aren't bused to any absurd degree when compared to the poorer kids in downtown/se raleigh/etc.

10/1/2009 4:17:39 PM

^^^I know I'm being a little hazardous in my assertion.

My main goal is to combat this notion that if we can somehow isolate the failing schools and throw a ton of money at them we can solve their unique problems. It's not all about the money.

I also get angry about the disingenuous folks who claim they care about these poorer kids and want them to have their own community schools with extra programs...when we all know those people will be the first to object to spending one extra penny to help out a failing school, especially after they don't get immediate returns on their initial investment. They'll throw up their hands and declare it a hopeless situation when they're the ones who fucked up the hopeful situation we have now!

^^We gotta start managing this growth. I know it's getting a little rough, and I know the school board has not done a good job of responding to concerned citizens. It's just that this is a problem they've been dealing with for a long time, and more and more new people are coming in with the same objections, and they're just like, "Yeah, we're working on it! We swear!"

It's a mess, but deintegrating is not the answer!



I just found Malone's website, and it looks like he may not be the same libertarian I found last night:

http://maloneforschoolboard.com/index.html

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 4:31 PM. Reason : Blah.]

10/1/2009 4:20:03 PM

Quote :

"I just want to know if any of them would support the teaching of Intelligent Design in our school system."

I sent an e-mail to each candidate in district 9 to ask them. I'll post their responses, if I get any.

10/1/2009 4:28:36 PM

http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A401757

Here is the first part of an Indy Article on their Endorsements (the whole thing would have been huge), and then the endorsements:

Quote :

"National experts sing praises of the Wake County school system, calling it—as Syracuse University's Gerald Grant did in a recent book—"a beacon of hope" in the rubble of America's failing urban districts. With good schools as a key selling point, Wake is among the nation's fastest-growing counties, but that means the school system is under constant pressure to keep up with the growth—and to reassign students as new schools come on line. Locally, these reassignments are greeted with a chorus of complaints. That's the yin and yang of this year's school board elections and of the diversity policies that are the central issue in the campaign: People say "The school system is great," or they say "It's not great for me and my children." The critical reason why Wake's schools succeed where other urban districts don't, experts say, is the school board's longstanding commitment to maintaining balanced student populations (diversity) so that there are no schools with all rich— or all poor—kids in them. It's a tough, but vital, job in a county with 159 schools and 140,000 students—up from 126 schools and 109,000 students six years ago—where most neighborhoods are not economically diverse. Students are assigned to a school near their homes, not necessarily the nearest one. A steady increase in the number of economically disadvantaged students, to almost 30 percent of all students, makes it tougher still, and has coincided with a slight drop in graduation rates. Contrast, as Grant did, the prosperity of inside-the-Beltline Raleigh with almost every other American city you can name, where parents who can afford to do so flee from the city's central neighborhoods so their children can attend good suburban schools. American cities are hurting. Raleigh is flourishing—and Wake County with it. But if diversity is a root cause of the region's success, it is nonetheless a cuss word to some angry parents in western Wake County. They want neighborhood schools, with their children assigned to the closest school, diversity be damned. Or rather, they call for diversity by other means, ignoring abundant evidence that the only other way to save neighborhood schools in poverty-stricken neighborhoods is through huge amounts of extra money that isn't available."

Here are the endorsements:

Quote :

"District 1 (Northeast) We support RITA RAKESTRAW, a community leader in Knightdale who promises a fresh perspective and an open mind on school quality and diversity in her eastern Wake County district. Rakestraw, a first-time candidate, is a former teacher (special education and second grade) with two preschool-age kids. She's eloquent in her support for diversity as important to preparing students for real life, as well as for its benefits to the school system overall. Neighborhood schools are also a "basic value we should follow," she says, and children shouldn't be forced to ride long distances in a bus. Striking the right balance between the two would be helped, Rakestraw argues, by creating new magnet schools in the east, where the number of economically disadvantaged students is disproportionately high compared with the rest of the county. Rakestraw is running with the support of the Wake-North Carolina Association of Educators, a teachers group. (It also endorsed Horace Tart, Karen Simon and Lois Nixon.) Her chief rival is former Wake Forest Town Commissioner Chris Malone, who is backed by the Wake GOP and the WSCA. Malone is a case manager for a security and investigations firm and an unsuccessful candidate five years ago for the board of county commissioners. He is a strident opponent of "busing" and reassignments, saying diversity can somehow be achieved without either. A third candidate, Wake Forest PTA leader Deborah Ann Vair, also opposes busing."

Quote :

"District 2 (Southeast) HORACE TART, the incumbent, is a plainspoken fellow to the point of occasionally being tongue-tied or worse. He's also a conservative Republican—a builder and developer, but also a former teacher—who arrived on the school board four years ago with a clear view that diversity was overrated and that neighborhood schools, combined with strong character education and his dream project, a new vocational high school in his district, were the answer to the system's needs. When he put his shoulder to the wheel, though, he learned that what the system needs is all of those things, including diversity, plus additional funding for low-performing schools. Tart hasn't gotten his voc-ed high school yet, though he's working on it. But he has found additional aid (dollars and staff) for several low-performing schools in Garner. In this field of three Republicans, Tart is the only one with the candor to say that while the school system's not all good, it isn't all bad either. We think he's earned a second term. Cathy Truitt, a retired teacher and principal in the Johnston County school system, is a viable alternative for anyone unwilling to support Tart. But Truitt comes across like she's running for school superintendent, not school board, with her focus on "learning frameworks" and such. On policy issues like reassignments and diversity, she's determinedly opaque. John Tedesco, the GOP-WSCA candidate, promises to bring politics to the school board and not in a good way. Tedesco is the fund-raising officer for a nonprofit, Big Brothers Big Sisters of the Triangle, which does good work. But Truitt is right that the last thing the Wake board needs is a politician—the opposite of what Tedesco ("a politician can make changes happen") says. Two other names are on the ballot: Chris Augustine withdrew from the race too late to be removed. Carlene Lucas did too, but last week announced she's running again."

Quote :

"District 7 (Northwest-Morrisville) KAREN SIMON, a first-time candidate, describes herself as a conservative liberal. She's an Army veteran with conservative "morals and values," who's employed with the Governor's Crime Commission. She's liberal in her support of a strong public education system as the platform for equal opportunity in this country. She's staunchly pro-diversity. At the same time, she supports constant review of the magnet schools and assignment policies used to achieve diversity. Residents in District 7, she says, "need stable student assignments," not frequent moves to new schools. It's a reasonable formulation. Deborah Prickett, the GOP-WSCA candidate, works for the state Department of Public Instruction, assisting local districts on character education programs. She's good at finding the system's flaws, including a recent drop in graduation rates and a low graduation rate (54 percent) among economically disadvantaged students. But it's a narrow analysis that doesn't support her conclusion that diversity policies should give way to neighborhood schools and the low-income kids will do better somehow."

Quote :

"District 9 (West-Cary) LOIS NIXON is an unaffiliated voter and always has been, she says. Not surprisingly, her view of the Wake school system is also independent-minded. She considers diversity's value "proven" but thinks if parents' choices are increased via more magnet programs and year-round options then forced reassignments can be reduced. The fact that Wake spends $225 less per student than the state average, however, and habitually lags growth in building new schools—decisions made by the county commissioners—inevitably hamstrings the system's ability to expand choices, she says. Nixon is the retired director of Wake County's Keep America Beautiful program, a job in which she was an effective environmental educator for the school system and the public. Her opponent, WSCA- and GOP-backed candidate Debra Goldman, attacked Nixon as "old guard," as if having a good record of public service somehow disqualified her for this office. It was a cheap shot and way off the mark: Nixon is smart, energetic and highly qualified for this tough assignment. That's not to say Goldman isn't ready in her own way. Her work as a volunteer firefighter and emergency first-responder suggests that she has the vigor, but her policy prescriptions—neighborhood schools, more resources for at-risk kids but no tax hikes, no way—don't add up. Oh, and no more year-round schools, but do cut the "tremendous waste" that conservatives keep saying is in the school budget—until, that is, they're asked to identify it."

10/1/2009 4:43:58 PM

except I don't know where they're getting the idea that Debra Goldman is going to get rid of year-round schools. From her website:

Quote :

"Year-Round schools should be an option for those that desire them, but not mandatory for those who do not. "

Granted, listening to her speak makes me think she's a moron, but that independent endorsement is predictably biased.

10/1/2009 4:46:12 PM

Quote :

"It doesn’t cover up the problem. It alleviates the problem: the lower SES kids actually do a little better when integrated, and all the kids do better overall. "

The only reason the school does well overall is the smart kids bring up the average. There is absolutely 0 interaction between the bussed in smart kids and the rest that are being failed by the school. T

Quote :

" Also, it’s important to note that you can’t fix a shitty school. Other places have tried and failed. Dudley in Greensboro is a good example of this sad reality. Greensboro poured millions of extra dollars into that school (largely out of guilt over its poor condition), and the kids are still failing. No amount of money or well-meaning people can fix a shitty school…the best option is to not have shitty schools in the first place. "

Bullshit. Schools are shitty for a reason. There are many ways to fix them, but it usually depends on the school. Its not always about money and its not always about the teachers. Alot of times you can have good teachers and enough funding, but the kids dont want to learn. In those cases you need to get them to want to learn. Bussing in some rich kids isn't going to do that.

Quote :

" And, by the way, Winston Salem is nothing like Wake County in its policies. They deintegrated a looong time ago…it’s not shocking you describe their magnet school as a shithole while Enloe in Raleigh is described as one of the best high schools in the country."

Its not deintegrated. This was a school that was being bussed to in order to integrate smart kids with the failures coming from the shitty school. This was for her middle school i think. I cant remember.

I went to west forsyth high school or whatever, and it had good teachers that i liked. They also had all their AP courses in a central location so they could offer more. So before lunch i hopped a bus over there for ap comp sci, ap english, and a cisco class. From middle school to high school I went though 5 different schools in Alabama, NC, and maine and it was by far the best school system i've been to. My AP comp science and AP english teachers were fantastic. And i didn't have to deal with some bullshit where they might be trying to stick dumb kids into my classes.

By placing your schools in the right places and centralizing the most expensive resources you can spread out the wealth and still have a good system.

10/1/2009 5:52:59 PM

The only thing integration does is bring up the average of the school. The kids who were failing before still continue to fail. The only difference is, it prevents them from losing federal funding and having the fed come in, take control, and fix the school

10/1/2009 6:19:29 PM

10/1/2009 6:20:18 PM

I'm not sold on the concept of integration, but in District 9, the pro-integration candidate is smarter, has 20 years of experience in Wake County government, has 2 children that have gone through the WCPSS, but none currently in it, and has lived here for decades.

The anti-integration candidate seems dumb as a sack of hammers. She doesn't seem to have any plans or ideas besides "no more integration!". I've lived in Cary longer than she has.

I think I'm going with the lesser of two evils. I'm not a huge fan of either.

10/1/2009 7:03:13 PM

Researching candidates is on my list of shit to do here shortly, and I just took a gander at my sample ballot. The education race is the only race I can vote in.

No kids, sister graduating HS this year, and intending to move away from NC before having kids = for once, it's not a lie for me to say I can say it's okay to not vote

10/1/2009 7:41:11 PM

Quote :

"The only thing integration does is bring up the average of the school. The kids who were failing before still continue to fail. The only difference is, it prevents them from losing federal funding and having the fed come in, take control, and fix the school"

don't forget that it puts kids who might otherwise be in a failing school in a better school, with the opportunities that affords them. not all poor kids are going to fail their way through school.

10/1/2009 7:43:16 PM

Quote :

"Shaggy: The only reason the school does well overall is the smart kids bring up the average. There is absolutely 0 interaction between the bussed in smart kids and the rest that are being failed by the school."

I wouldn’t say zero, but you’re right that the two groups don’t co-mingle in some diverse Utopia, but that’s not really the point with the magnet schools. If a school exists in an area that parents are really resistant to sending their kids, making it a magnet and providing special programs gives it some extra desirability. There’s definitely been some contention over which schools become magnets and why, but magnets are not the central theme of this debate.

Quote :

"Shaggy: Bullshit. Schools are shitty for a reason. There are many ways to fix them, but it usually depends on the school. Its not always about money and its not always about the teachers. Alot of times you can have good teachers and enough funding, but the kids dont want to learn. In those cases you need to get them to want to learn. Bussing in some rich kids isn't going to do that."

Please expand on the ways we can fix shitty schools and please volunteer your future children to attend them while we undertake the process of applying your amazing fixes. Also, I look forward to seeing you pitching in some volunteer efforts at the myriad of shitty schools this great state has to offer.

Quote :

"Shaggy: Its not deintegrated. This was a school that was being bussed to in order to integrate smart kids with the failures coming from the shitty school. This was for her middle school i think. I cant remember."

When I said it was deintegrated, I was referring to the entire school system being deintegrated overall. They still have magnet schools because people still like those special programs. But again, the magnet system isn't a big part of this debate.

Quote :

"Shaggy: I went to west forsyth high school or whatever, and it had good teachers that i liked. They also had all their AP courses in a central location so they could offer more. So before lunch i hopped a bus over there for ap comp sci, ap english, and a cisco class. From middle school to high school I went though 5 different schools in Alabama, NC, and maine and it was by far the best school system i've been to. My AP comp science and AP english teachers were fantastic. "

Someone close to me went to West Forsyth and had a similar experience. He said it was great. But why don’t you tell me about Carver or North Forsyth? And how is Winston Salem doing overall? Forsyth County is pretty big, definitely in the top 5 population-wise…the economy there must be booming!

Quote :

"Shaggy: And i didn't have to deal with some bullshit where they might be trying to stick dumb kids into my classes. ??By placing your schools in the right places and centralizing the most expensive resources you can spread out the wealth and still have a good system"

You’re right. Forsyth County is a model for us all. All you gotta do is "put schools in the right places," "centralize the most expensive resources," and hope your kid goes to West Forsyth.

Quote :

"Shaggy: The only thing integration does is bring up the average of the school. The kids who were failing before still continue to fail. The only difference is, it prevents them from losing federal funding and having the fed come in, take control, and fix the school"

No, lower SES students actually do better when integrated. Let’s take a look at scores of Forsyth County vs. Wake County:

For Forsyth County statistics:

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/nc/district-profile/103#eog_subgroup

For Wake County statistics:

http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/nc/district-profile/171#eog_subgroup

It’s a lot to take in, but I’ll go ahead and give you the 411: Wake County students overall performed better on every single EOG/EOC test. The lower SES students in Wake County performed better on every single EOG test (EOC info is not divided by subgroup on the site) except those given in the third grade. In fact, by the seventh grade, lower SES students in Wake County were performing 5 points better in math and 8 points better in English.

Per pupil spending? Forsyth county spends about $400 more per pupil than Wake County. And you’d think, well, four hundred dollars isn’t that much, but when you multiply it out by the number of students, you come up with a huge chunk of change. That’s a lot of money folks are spending just to cripple their own economy and make their kids perform worse…but thank goodness they didn’t “stick dumb kids into” your classes. At least you’ve got that going for you.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 7:54 PM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 7:52:22 PM

BridgetSPK: Could you please define SES (socioeconomic status?), and what categories it corresponds to in your links? Just for clarity's sake. (Are you referring to children on free/reduced lunch? Something else?)

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 11:39 PM. Reason : .]

10/1/2009 11:38:03 PM

Yeah, free and reduced price lunch. My bad.

10/2/2009 12:53:17 AM

Quote :

"It’s a lot to take in, but I’ll go ahead and give you the 411: Wake County students overall performed better on every single EOG/EOC test. The lower SES students in Wake County performed better on every single EOG test (EOC info is not divided by subgroup on the site) except those given in the third grade. In fact, by the seventh grade, lower SES students in Wake County were performing 5 points better in math and 8 points better in English."

Looking over the data, the trend of Wake outperforming Forsyth is true, but at times the difference is quite small - the largest differences appear to be for reading, and at later grades. (That is, the delta appears to grow). In both cases, free/reduced lunch students still under-perform compared to peers; the difference between their achievement and those of their peers (non-free/reduced lunch) is nearly parallel between the two counties; this delta is also much larger in both systems than the difference of free/reduced lunch performance between the two counties.

Thus, can the claim that economic integration being the driving factor really be supported? Are there perhaps other features of the Wake public school system which may drive this - i.e., # of highly qualified teachers (M-level licenses, content experts), compared to other districts? Is there any other evidence out there to support the claim that it is specifically economic integration that drives higher performance? (When, again, the achievement gap is still an order of magnitude greater than the claimed boost in performance.)

10/2/2009 1:03:44 AM

I started laying out the data in a spreadsheet and one thing I noticed is that for every county, all of the reading scores dropped precipitously from 2007 to 2008. I mean like 25-30%. WTF? Did the testing standards change?

I don't think integration can explain the overall testing score differences between the two counties, at least not fully. Take a look at the ethnicity, economically disadvantaged, and attendance stats at the bottom as well.

For reading across all grade levels, in Wake County the average ratio of free lunch to not free lunch proficiency was 47.76%. For Forsyth County, 45.58%.

For Math, Wake was 62.47% Forsyth 61.6%

Generally the numbers make me sad in both counties. I mean wtf reading proficiency??

[Edited on October 2, 2009 at 9:23 AM. Reason : average]

10/2/2009 9:22:29 AM

Quote :

"WTF? Did the testing standards change?"

yes

10/2/2009 9:37:16 AM

Your race shouldn't determine which school you must attend. Local residents should attend local schools. The gov't shouldn't be used to force people to associate. It is not the gov't's role to make us behave according to someone's subjective notion of what's moral.

Black students need better schools (voucher system), not just a ride to a white school.

10/2/2009 10:41:41 AM

Quote :

"DrSteveChaos: Thus, can the claim that economic integration being the driving factor really be supported? Are there perhaps other features of the Wake public school system which may drive this - i.e., # of highly qualified teachers (M-level licenses, content experts), compared to other districts? Is there any other evidence out there to support the claim that it is specifically economic integration that drives higher performance? (When, again, the achievement gap is still an order of magnitude greater than the claimed boost in performance.)"

Highly qualified teachers is an excellent point, and I believe that a lot of that has to do with integration. Teachers like it here because the schools are balanced. Also, it's been argued that our choice to integrate has helped our economy, helped make Wake County a nice place to live, which also attracts competitive teachers.

Quote :

"EarthDogg: Your race shouldn't determine which school you must attend. Local residents should attend local schools. The gov't shouldn't be used to force people to associate. It is not the gov't's role to make us behave according to someone's subjective notion of what's moral. Black students need better schools (voucher system), not just a ride to a white school."

We don't bus based on race. We bus on socioeconomic status, which I realize lines up with race. The bus rides aren't very long in most cases. Plus, because of growth patterns in the county, people can't always attend their nearest school anyway--somebody is going to have to get bussed to a school further away because the closest school cannot accommodate all the people closest to it. I consider the whole of Wake County a local community.

And because of the way we distribute students to schools, there are no "white schools." Schools starting out may be largely white for their first few years until we get the population figured out, but after that you can't say, "Oh, you go to the white school."

Finally, it's terribly hard for me to take your views seriously when you suggest that students need more than just a ride to a white school (which isn't what we do anyway)...and your prescription for the problem is vouchers, which is actually a ride to a private (white) school. I'm very confused now.

10/2/2009 11:58:00 AM

Quote :

"Highly qualified teachers is an excellent point, and I believe that a lot of that has to do with integration. Teachers like it here because the schools are balanced. Also, it's been argued that our choice to integrate has helped our economy, helped make Wake County a nice place to live, which also attracts competitive teachers."

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but do you have evidence that supports this statement? Again, the theory that integration by SES is interesting, but thus so far it seems hard to separate the claim of integration as a driver for addition success compared to other factors. If integration has been a factor in recruiting and keeping highly qualified teachers, is there evidence of this effect, specifically?

10/2/2009 12:13:53 PM

^Tons of evidence.

The Century Foundation is a good place to start: http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=TP&topic=3

A graph and data intensive article from TCF: http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=PB&pubid=618 It's a pdf, but it's only 12 pages, and it pretty much sums up what I've been saying with stats that I'm way too lazy to track down right now. One startling stat shows middle-income students at high-poverty schools performing worse than lower-income students at low-poverty schools. It also briefly touches on the teacher dynamic. The focus of the article is NCLB, which isn't really what we're talking about, but in their argument against NCLB, they make a good case for integration. Plus it's short and has lots of pictures.


I wish I had taken this issue more seriously and kept a journal of every statistic I've learned (I have a friend who did this, and I need to get her notes). It's just that a lot of these things seem evident to me. Of course, teachers want to teach at middle-class schools. What teacher with a Master's degree and plenty of experience would sign up to teach at a high school where she knows three quarters of her students are going to be reading at a middle-school level? I mean, we can't pay teachers enough to work at high poverty schools. The schools are so undesirable that we have to give full scholarships to people just so they'll promise to teach at a high poverty school for a mere four years. We've also tried $15,000 signing bonuses and reduced housing prices just to try to lure them to a high poverty school. So, of course, the best teachers are attracted to Wake County where there are no high poverty schools. Of course, we get some of the best teachers.

And the business aspect is obvious to me, too. Wake Education Partnership comes out every few years and lists the hundreds of businesses, small and large, that have signed on time and time again to voice their support for WCPSS's diversity policy. http://www.wakeedpartnership.org/ And it's not secret that white flight (which integration helps prevent) destroyed thriving cities...

Greeensboro used to be bigger than Raleigh! They were forced to integrate, and instead of doing it, they encouraged white flight by splitting up their school system by county and city (later rejoined). White kids lived in the county and went to county schools. Black kids lived in the city and went to city schools. The fact that areas of their county crumbled and businesses shut down should come as no surprise. And now Greensboro is stuck giving huge tax breaks to Dell to build one fucking manufacturing plant that will employ a whopping 1700 people, and they celebrate this as some great boon for their economy. By the way, Dell has yet to employ the number of people they promised (http://www.manufacturing.net/News-NC-City-Calls-For-Dell-To-Report-Job-Losses-051109.aspx?menuid=268), and it only cost Greensboro 37 million dollars.


So, I guess what I'm saying is the proof is in the pudding. We've done it right for over thirty years. We've got the research, the awards, the books about how we're a model for the nation, the top spots on best place to live lists, the job opportunities, the good test scores, etc... And it's very frustrating that a group of largely newcomers wants to come in and change what we've done right, and we're the ones who have to defend ourselves. No, prove to us that what we're doing is wrong.

10/2/2009 4:51:35 PM

Quote :

"Black students need better schools (voucher system), not just a ride to a white school."

Typically, voucher systems are most successful in areas where the public schools by and large are failing whereas there is a prominent charter system. This is not the case in Wake County and I would have to think long and hard about the potential for a voucher system to produce a net benefit here. I would argue that it wouldnt. If were to go the voucher route, the only opportunities you would be opening up would be the private and charter schools. They don't really offer anything that our public schools don't in terms of healthy schools and strong educational programs. Not to mention that many are largely white, so its just busing the lower SES kids to a different 'white' school.

This system would result in schools in our district failing that are otherwise successful under the current system.

10/2/2009 5:17:52 PM