good news for Airbus, i guess.







[Edited on November 9, 2009 at 11:08 AM. Reason : ]

11/9/2009 11:07:42 AM

where in south carolina? my father in law is an airplane mechanic.

11/9/2009 11:16:31 AM

Charleston

well, it's not official. it's still in preliminary phases. Boeing is threatening to do it, if the machinists' union doesnt give up some key demands.

personally, i think such a move would set them (Boeing) back a huge amount. SC just doesnt have a skilled labor force to draw from, to build commercial jets on a scale that they currently do in Everett and Seattle WA

it's not like throwing together some Hondas or BMWs.

11/9/2009 11:21:55 AM

I'd rather fly on airbus anyway.

11/9/2009 11:26:16 AM

I think it'd be a great message to the labor unions.

As far as workforce, in this economy people will go to where the work is.

11/9/2009 11:56:32 AM

I bet most of the Washington employees will make the move to Charleston.

1. Where else will they get a job in this economy?

2. Charleston is a pretty kick-ass place. It's not like they're moving the plant to Alabama or some crap.


My wife's company is doing this with a New Jersey plant, and her location is seeing a huge migration.

[Edited on November 9, 2009 at 12:00 PM. Reason : ]

11/9/2009 11:57:48 AM

the difference between the non-union labor in that pic and union labor is that the guys in the pic seem to be doing work.

11/9/2009 12:11:35 PM

Quote :

"well, it's not official. it's still in preliminary phases."

How is this not official? The contractors are already being selected.

11/9/2009 12:22:46 PM

^ nothing is official while they're still in contract negotiations with the union. They can pull the plug on facility development at any time.



^^

Quote :

"the guys in the pic seem to be doing work."

I spent years in skilled trades doing commercial and industrial construction for non-union companies from NC, SC, GA, and FL... and i will agree that they are very good at playing the "seem to be doing work" game

but the larger point is that they work they're doing is cheap, shoddy and with extreme disregard to worker safety. which is the crux of the argument that union workers will always ultimately win against non-union counterparts.





[Edited on November 9, 2009 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

11/9/2009 12:47:51 PM

^what? So non-union companies/workers disregard OSHA?

I worked with union workforces in NYC for 3 years and I've got to say they're the laziest most over paid people I've ever seen in my life...so maybe I'm biased.

11/9/2009 1:02:45 PM

To clarify, Boeing is opening a second 787 line in South Carolina. The first line will continue to be up in Everett. Their official reason is that they want to establish a second line to speed up production, but most people understand that its a strong anti-union move. Rumor also has it that this is to help curry favor with the South Carolina congressional delegation to buy them more allies in Congress.

So no, I wouldn't worry about this creating a sudden drop in the quality of manufacturing. Boeing isn't THAT stupid, and developing a fully operational line takes years if not decades. At very least, this gives them additional leverage against the machinists since it provides them with an alternative manufacturing site in the future.

For those who say that its not possible to move a line around like this, history will prove otherwise. People forget that years ago, Long Island, NY was once a center of aerospace manufacturing. Now no one remembers. Wichita is also in the decline, California no longer builds aircraft, and there are plenty of winners and losers across the map.

It is true that initially it will take time to build up a labor pool, but especially with the current economy, there's a good pool of trainable workers who are looking for well paying blue collar work.

Also, given that Airbus is building a new plant in Alabama to assembly A330's for the tanker bid if they win, I'd say its a draw.

11/9/2009 1:10:38 PM

Quote :

"but the larger point is that they work they're doing is cheap, shoddy and with extreme disregard to worker safety. which is the crux of the argument that union workers will always ultimately win against non-union counterparts. "

Toyota > GM

11/9/2009 1:17:31 PM

^lol...you mean.

Every car manufacturer > GM

11/9/2009 1:22:34 PM

I dont know the point of this thread......

Was it to praise Boeing for opening up a plant (not really SB relavent IMO), or was it because you thought you saw a cool cartoon on the net and wanted to make another illogical attack at southern people?

11/9/2009 5:09:14 PM

RedGuard won this thread.... but i'll give bigun20 half a point for an unexpected display of insight.

but FTR, as a southern man living in the northwest, it's not just my right to make "illogical attacks" on southerners, it's my responsibility.

are you sure it's illogical, though? because here's a similar piece from a South Carolinian cartoonist, Mike Beckom. is he also making illogical attacks on southerners?







[Edited on November 9, 2009 at 5:46 PM. Reason : ]

11/9/2009 5:30:36 PM

A. Those two cartoons are completely different. The tone, message, depiction....entirely different.

B. If you honestly feel its your responsibility to make illogical attacks on southerners, I truly feel sorry for you. You should try and find a better lot in life.....

so what was the purpose of this thread again??

11/9/2009 6:11:25 PM

to piss you off, i reckon.

11/9/2009 6:14:24 PM

"i reckon"


well done

11/9/2009 6:17:41 PM

ahahahaha that's so funny. Nothing like good unsubstantiated stereotypical humor to get the ole' synapses fired up in the morning.











Oh wait, David Horsey has lived in Seattle all his life, has no background in either business or aerospace, and is obviously bitter that his state was under-bid. What a choad. Had the same joke been made regarding Chinese or Mexican prejudices Mr. Horsey would be rightly pilloried.


Aviation is probably the most safety focused industry in the US and Boeing isn't going to make this move haphazardly. Obviously South Carolina's workers had something to offer that Washington's didn't. Tough break, but if you want manufacturing to remain in the United States you're either going to have to pursue a massively isolationist and protectionist policy or accept the fact that costs have to come in line.

11/9/2009 7:44:12 PM

i can't tell...

are you mad for being teased?

or proud to be the lowest bidder?

11/9/2009 7:45:58 PM

Meh, I'll admit I got a bit mad, but I think it reflects more poorly on David Horsey than on South Carolina. There is plenty to criticize in the South, I just suppose I appreciate humor that isn't so shallow and lazy.

And what is inherently wrong with being the lowest bidder? Is there anything noble about charging more money for the same amount of work?

11/9/2009 7:49:43 PM

Is it wrong with charging what it costs to do the job right? do the old proverbs -- "measure twice, cut once" and "you get what you pay for" -- no longer apply?

i've spent a number of years in construction (hospitals, industrial plants, arenas) ... mostly as a tradesman, but also stints as as an estimator and as a design engineer.

I'll tell you for a fact project managers are always suspicious of the low bidders for any project, and often toss out the exceedingly low bids without reviewing them. granted dealing with state governments for facility location is a far more complex beast than negotiating single prime contractors, but concepts are still the same.

I also know from experience, the low bidding contractors "make up the slack" by nickle and diming the fuck out of you with change orders and often resort to extorted money via threats of lawsuits.

Whereas with prevailing wage outfits, it's far more transparent and on the table. you know the costs ahead of time, and they put experienced journeymen with traceable and documented training in charge of the work, not some jacklegs who wandered in off the farm with a bag of tools and are willing to go work anywhere for $12-15/hr.





[Edited on November 9, 2009 at 8:06 PM. Reason : ]

11/9/2009 7:59:44 PM

STUPID SOUTHERNERS (LIKELY CHRISTIANS) GET CHANCE TO MAKE US LOOK STUPID

is what the seattle papers are really aching to print

11/9/2009 8:12:14 PM

okay, now i laughed.

b/c you might not be entirely incorrect.

all stereotypes are based (if only loosely) on an element of truth.

11/9/2009 8:29:24 PM

Quote :

"Is it wrong with charging what it costs to do the job right?"

By that argument, prices would have been static since the beginning of time. Come on joe, you're smarter than that. Prices are dynamic and the ability of South Carolina to compete with Washington is a function of a multitude of factors outside of quality of work.

Quote :

"Whereas with prevailing wage outfits"

and there, precisely, is the issue. Prevailing wages in South Carolina are lower than those in Washington state.

11/9/2009 8:45:46 PM

south carolina doesnt pay a prevailing wage even by their own Cost of Living standards. I don't believe they even have that concept.

11/9/2009 8:48:05 PM

fuck unions.

11/9/2009 10:08:13 PM

Damn Straight, Beau!

and fuck them offshore lowballing contractors from Second World countries!

amirite? AMIRITE???

11/9/2009 10:21:57 PM

NPR had a quick piece about American airlines turning to El Salvador and Ethiopia for jet maintenance...union labor is presumably too expensive...so, yeah, we're getting undercut by Ethiopia.

11/9/2009 10:51:24 PM

Quote :

"i've spent a number of years in construction (hospitals, industrial plants, arenas) ... mostly as a tradesman, but also stints as as an estimator and as a design engineer. I'll tell you for a fact project managers are always suspicious of the low bidders for any project, and often toss out the exceedingly low bids without reviewing them. granted dealing with state governments for facility location is a far more complex beast than negotiating single prime contractors, but concepts are still the same. I also know from experience, the low bidding contractors "make up the slack" by nickle and diming the fuck out of you with change orders and often resort to extorted money via threats of lawsuits. Whereas with prevailing wage outfits, it's far more transparent and on the table. you know the costs ahead of time, and they put experienced journeymen with traceable and documented training in charge of the work, not some jacklegs who wandered in off the farm with a bag of tools and are willing to go work anywhere for $12-15/hr."

you wouldn't have these problems if you'd solidify your bid documents so that there's no room for ambiguity. If you're getting nickled and dimed out of additional funds after the fact, then odds are you were pumping out shitty bid documents and were every bit as suspicious as the lowball contractors you're whining about. Good engineering firms don't have this problem.

Also, I don't understand how you can make the claim that the workers at this facility won't earn prevailing wages. Does this facility not have the capability to manufacture any military or federal aircraft? If they do, then they will have to comply with Davis-Bacon wages. You can afford to pay your workers good wages if they actually do work.

[Edited on November 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2009 11:15:15 PM

Quote :

"i've spent a number of years in construction (hospitals, industrial plants, arenas) ... mostly as a tradesman, but also stints as as an estimator and as a design engineer. I'll tell you for a fact project managers are always suspicious of the low bidders for any project, and often toss out the exceedingly low bids without reviewing them. granted dealing with state governments for facility location is a far more complex beast than negotiating single prime contractors, but concepts are still the same. I also know from experience, the low bidding contractors "make up the slack" by nickle and diming the fuck out of you with change orders and often resort to extorted money via threats of lawsuits. Whereas with prevailing wage outfits, it's far more transparent and on the table. you know the costs ahead of time, and they put experienced journeymen with traceable and documented training in charge of the work, not some jacklegs who wandered in off the farm with a bag of tools and are willing to go work anywhere for $12-15/hr. "

None of this is necessarily applicable to this situation.

Just like corporations can often get out of control, and governments, unions can become too powerful too, and it’s not “wrong” of Boeing to hedge their bets in this economic climate, especially if it enhances their bargaining position.

This can only ultimately help unions, if they are forced to remain humble and not leave a bad taste in the mouths of the companies they work for.

11/9/2009 11:17:05 PM

Quote :

"If you're getting nickled and dimed out of additional funds after the fact, then odds are you were pumping out shitty bid documents and were every bit as suspicious as the lowball contractors you're whining about. Good engineering firms don't have this problem"

i worked for one of the top electrical engineering firms on the west coast, before i decided to get out of construction altogether. there was no problem with talented PMs and Principals at this firm.

lowball contractors are the bane of any engineering firm, and that's why they're avoided. they are always more trouble than they're worth. if you have projects that are free of change orders, then you are doing a bunch of little mickey mouse jobs that aren't even worth discussing. i'm talking $100M hospital retrofits.

retrofit and rework is a bitch to scope no matter who prepares teh documents. its more important to build a working relationship with a known entity who bids above the table and is fair on out-of-scope T&M work than to try and get it done on the cheap by some lowball contractors who cuts corners and employs jackleg workers who work for a fraction of the prevailing wages.

Quote :

"they will have to comply with Davis-Bacon wages. "

okay, yes. you're right about that. my mistake.





[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 12:13 AM. Reason : ]

11/10/2009 12:09:21 AM

Quote :

"and is obviously bitter that his state was under-bid"

It should be illegal for states to offer tax incentives. Hell, it should be illegal for the federal government too. What about equality before the law? Boeing should pay the same taxes that any other business in South Carolina pays. It helps no one for these shenanigans to be taking place and costs society dearly (if not for tax rebates for some, taxes for all could be lower).

That said, even if the states were barred from such discrimination, Boeing would have still located its new plant somewhere in the south.

11/10/2009 10:12:04 AM

I was hoping to get this project. We were on the short list of EPC firms, but ended up being a little too expensive basically. I'll definitely keep watching this to see how things unfold though.

[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason : ]

11/10/2009 11:56:10 AM

My company is gunning for the Mechanical package on this facility, so likewise, I want to see it happen.

11/10/2009 1:17:23 PM

wow, at that cartoon. looks like more of that liberal tolerance and appreciation for diversity.

11/11/2009 8:14:19 PM

Quote :

"I dont know the point of this thread...... Was it to praise Boeing for opening up a plant (not really SB relavent IMO), or was it because you thought you saw a cool cartoon on the net and wanted to make another illogical attack at southern people?"

11/11/2009 8:43:11 PM

I'm a liberal and I say "fuck tolerance"

11/11/2009 10:47:44 PM

http://www2.counton2.com/cbd/ap_exchange/wcbd_custom_regional_news/article/BoeingBreaksGroundForHistoricScPlant/87680/

11/23/2009 10:12:21 AM

the real reason why SC got the nod is so that Mark Sanford can get cheaper flights to Argentina to spark his girlfriend more.

11/23/2009 10:19:15 AM