15 Signs American Society Is Coming Apart at the Seams

I realize this is a lot of words and I don't agree with all the conclusions / implications of the author, but society reacts to the kinds of indicators Mr. DeGraw points to.

Quote :

"The economic elite have launched an attack on the U.S. public and society is unraveling at an increased rate. You may have missed it in the mainstream news media, but statistical societal indicators are reading red across the board. Let’s look at the top 15 statistics that prove we are under attack. 1) The inequality of wealth in the United States is soaring to an unprecedented level. The U.S. already had the highest inequality of wealth in the industrialized world prior to the financial crisis. Since the crisis, which has hit the middle class and poor much harder than the top 1 percent, the gap between the top 1 percent and the remaining 99 percent of the U.S. population has grown to a record high. 2) As the stock market went over the 10,000 mark and just surged to a 13-month high, the three big banks that took taxpayer money and benefited the most from the government bailout have just set a new global economic record by issuing $30 billion in annual bonuses this year, “up 60 percent from last year.” Bloomberg reported: “Goldman Sachs, the most profitable securities firm in Wall Street history, had a record profit in the first nine months of this year and set aside $16.7 billion for compensation expenses.” Goldman Sachs is on pace for the best year in the firm’s history, and it is also benefiting by only paying 1 percent in taxes. 3) The profits of the economic elite are “now underwritten by taxpayers with $23.7 trillion worth of national wealth." As the looting is occurring at the top, the U.S. middle class is just beginning to collapse. 4) Workers between the ages of 55 to 60, who have worked for 20 to 29 years, have lost an average of 25 percent off their 401k. During the same time period, the wealth of the 400 richest Americans went up by $30 billion, bringing their total combined wealth to $1.57 trillion. 5) Home foreclosure filings "hit a record high in the third quarter (of 2009)… They were the worst three months of all time… 937,840 homes received a foreclosure letter" in this three-month period; “3.4 million homes are expected to enter foreclosure by year’s end, with some experts estimating that next year will be even worse.” President Obama has enacted a $75 billion taxpayer funded program that has been a spectacular failure in stemming the foreclosure crisis and has proven to be another massive waste of billions of taxpayer dollars. 6) 25 million people are unemployed or underemployed. This means we have 25 million people who urgently need to increase their income, and they’re quickly running out of options. The unemployment rate is expected to rise further and remain high for several years. “The president’s chief economic adviser warned that the nation’s unemployment rate could stay ‘unacceptably high’ for years to come." The New York Times reports: "Americans now confront a job market that is bleaker than ever in the current recession, and employment prospects are still getting worse. Job seekers now outnumber openings six to one, the worst ratio since the government began tracking….” As this ratio continues to grow, it will lead to a further reduction in wages -- average worker wages have seen a sharp decline over the past year. Economist Nouriel Roubini, a man who accurately predicted our current crisis, just reported on unemployment stating: “Think the worst is over? Wrong. Conditions in the U.S. labor markets are awful and worsening…. So we can expect that job losses will continue until the end of 2010 at the earliest. In other words, if you are unemployed and looking for work and just waiting for the economy to turn the corner, you had better hunker down. All the economic numbers suggest this will take a while. The jobs just are not coming back.” 7) As the few elite banks thrive, there have been 123 U.S. bank failures thus far this year. Recently, three banks that the government declared “healthy” and gave taxpayer money, have folded. The Wall Street Journal reports: “U.S. regulators have seized or threatened at least 27 banks that got capital infusions from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, including some lenders government officials knew were troubled when they awarded the money. The troubles put taxpayers at risk of losing as much as $5.1 billion invested in the banks since TARP was launched in October 2008.”"

12/3/2009 10:14:04 AM

Quote :

"8) As bankruptcies surge across the board, 10 U.S. states are on the verge of bankruptcy, with several ready to declare a financial state of emergency. California, Arizona, Florida, Illinois, Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon, Rhode Island and Wisconsin are all “barreling toward economic disaster, raising the likelihood of higher taxes, more government layoffs and deep cuts in services." 9) This is occurring at a time when the “federal budget deficit for the fiscal year that just ended was $1.4 trillion, nearly a trillion dollars greater than the year before." In total, "U.S. public debt topped $12 trillion for the first time in history… The public debt topped $10 trillion in September 2008. The debt is quickly approaching the statutory limit of $12.104 trillion, meaning Congress would have to raise the ceiling to prevent a shutdown of government operations." Economist Dean Baker explains the risk of running such a large deficit: "The debt limit must be increased at regular intervals in order to allow the government to function normally because the government is currently operating at a deficit. If the debt limit is not passed, then at some point the government will not be able to pay workers and contractors. It won’t be able to send out Social Security checks or make payments for Medicaid and unemployment insurance to state governments. And, it will not be able to make interest payments on government bonds, effectively defaulting on the national debt." Needless to say, all of this will make life drastically more difficult for American citizens. As the middle class continues on the path of economic decline, the number of citizens living in poverty has already hit an all-time high. 10) Although the government’s official figure tries to low-ball the number, 47.4 million U.S. citizens live in poverty, and the U.S. poverty rate is the highest in the industrialized world. Predictably, homelessness is rising at an increased rate as well. "The U.S. government does not tally the numbers but interested organizations say that more than 3 million people were homeless at some point over the past year…. The fastest growing segment of the homeless population is families with children.” Children have been hit especially hard by the economic crisis: 11) * 50 percent of U.S. children, one out of every two children, will need to use food stamps to eat. One out of every two children in the United States of America will need to use a food stamp… to EAT! If you didn’t think starvation was a serious threat in the U.S., just read this new Washington Post report: “The nation’s economic crisis has catapulted the number of Americans who lack enough food to the highest level since the government has been keeping track, according to a new federal report, which shows that nearly 50 million people — including almost one child in four — struggled last year to get enough to eat… Several independent advocates and policy experts on hunger said that they had been bracing for the latest report to show deepening shortages, but that they were nevertheless astonished by how much the problem has worsened. 'This is unthinkable. It’s like we are living in a Third World country,' said Vicki Escarra, president of Feeding America." The United States Department of Agriculture released these findings in a study that was completed in December 2008, which means these numbers don’t take into account the millions more unemployed throughout 2009. The numbers of people living in poverty and struggling to eat has seen a significant increase since then. This a national tragedy. But it gets much worse. 12) In 2008, according to the Census Bureau, the number of U.S. citizens without health care grew to a record 46.3 million. “The new figures, however, understate the severity of the economic downturn because a large portion of the nation’s job losses and unemployment rate increases occurred after the Census survey data was collected in March as part of the annual Current Population Survey." 13) Lack of health insurance has caused 45,000 preventable U.S. citizen deaths in the past year. The American Journal of Medicine recently released a study that stated, “Nearly two out of three bankruptcies stem from medical bills, and even people with health insurance face financial disaster if they experience a serious illness.” A Johns Hopkins Children’s Center study reported that 17,000 children have died due to lack of health care. You can also add in a recent report that revealed that 2,266 U.S. veterans have died in 2008 due to lack of insurance. The 50 million now uninsured and the 45,000 preventable deaths per year statistics are expected to drastically rise over the next few years. As the Senate continues to strip meaningful amendments from a health care bill that wouldn’t even take effect until 2013, it has become clear that, despite the media hype, the health care bill is going to fall far short of meaningful reform and continue to rig the game in favor of large insurance company profits at the expense of the U.S. population. With the highest cost healthcare in the world, current trends will continue and much needed change is not on the horizon. Never before has the United States had so many citizens with so little means, little to no income and heavy debt. Debt and costs of living have now shackled U.S. citizens just as they have shackled people throughout the world. The economic hit men have now hit the United States as well and millions of American citizens are now effectively sentenced to a slow death. Economic Imperial blowback has hit the mainland. And the clock is ticking louder by the day… And here’s two more facts for you: 14) The gun and ammunition manufacturing industry in the United States has over 200 companies producing billions of dollars in annual revenues. This huge manufacturing base cannot fulfill demand quickly enough. The demand for guns and ammunition has hit a record high and the gun industry cannot produce enough bullets to keep up with orders. Americans are arming themselves to the teeth! 15) In the past year, 100 new armed militia groups have been formed, as militia members have doubled in numbers. Federal authorities are gravely concerned about the “uptick in militia activities." One federal authority recently said, “All it’s lacking is a spark. I think it’s only a matter of time before you see threats and violence." So let’s break down these numbers. You have a population of 50 million people who are in desperate need of money, they most likely have no health insurance and can’t afford to get health care or help of any kind. Part of this population probably also has loved ones who can’t get life sustaining medical treatments, or loved ones who have already died due to lack of costly medical treatment. The clock is ticking loud for these people and they are running out of options fast, and time delayed is time closer to death. While the richest 1 percent have never had it so good, a significant percentage of the U.S. population now has firsthand experience in this. Millions upon millions of Americans are poor, broke, struggling, starving, desperate… and armed. We are sitting on a powder keg! We are now witnessing the critical unraveling of U.S. society."

Food for thought. I think the last two tie in interestingly with what I posted here: /message_topic.aspx?topic=582613

12/3/2009 10:14:30 AM

i believe that it is mostly due to the taking away of freedoms like we have not seen before. business freedoms family freedoms religious freedoms and all other economic freedoms are pretty much dead today. we need a true conservative government that wants to set us freei think.

12/3/2009 10:17:40 AM

I pretty sure the solution for most of those bullets is bootstraps.

12/3/2009 10:29:53 AM

^^^ Link?

12/3/2009 10:40:10 AM

12/3/2009 10:54:52 AM

Quote :

"I pretty sure the solution for most of those bullets is bootstraps."

lol

12/3/2009 10:57:24 AM

i searched the web and have not found that article on anything i would consider a credible news source.

12/3/2009 10:59:35 AM

Sorry, link here: http://is.gd/5b9f9

12/3/2009 11:21:23 AM

Quote :

"4) Workers between the ages of 55 to 60, who have worked for 20 to 29 years, have lost an average of 25 percent off their 401k. During the same time period, the wealth of the 400 richest Americans went up by $30 billion, bringing their total combined wealth to $1.57 trillion. and 11) * 50 percent of U.S. children, one out of every two children, will need to use food stamps to eat."

let them eat cake right?



[Edited on December 3, 2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason : ]

12/3/2009 11:24:59 AM

[Edited on December 3, 2009 at 11:34 AM. Reason : Oops. Wrong thread.]

12/3/2009 11:34:15 AM

4) Workers between the ages of 55 to 60, who have worked for 20 to 29 years, have lost an average of 25 percent off their 401k. During the same time period, the wealth of the 400 richest Americans went up by $30 billion, bringing their total combined wealth to $1.57 trillion.


The market tanked, I dont see how is a sign of anything, other than more needed to put thier money into safer investments as they get closer to retirement. And I cant imagine the wealthiest 400 individuals only invest in the market.

12/3/2009 12:15:30 PM

No they also invest in lobbyists and politicians

12/3/2009 12:16:35 PM

I think most of these are issues are legitimate concerns though his logical chain that this is leading to the end of the Republic is a bit far fetched. Again, as bad as things are, I don't know if they're that much worse than other periods in history such as the 1960s, 1930s, or even earlier. This nation has had large armed rebellions before even excluding the Civil War, and I don't think we're even close to the conditions that triggered some of those.

I do have a few specific knit picks:

2) With regards to Goldman Sachs, I hate to punish them for actually doing their jobs. If I remember, was Goldman one of those banks that was forced to take taxpayer money in order to hide from the markets which banks were on the verge of insolvency? Also, can you really blame Goldman Sachs for giving bonuses to their people because they were able to figure out how to make money in the current market environment?

14) Is the small arms and ammunition industry reaping record profits because gun proliferation is going nuts or perhaps the small issue that THERE ARE TWO WARS we are engaged in at the present moment? Yes, President Obama's election helped fueled an increased sale in firearms that isn't really altering the guns-per-citizen ratio by much at all (and the sales are beginning to taper off). However, ammunition prices have practically doubled thanks to the high demand by the Federal government. I think this is thrown in more for effect than for real concern.

15) How do these militia statistics stack up to the mid-1990s, the last time we had a big uptick in the number of militias? Yes, it gave birth to our crazed domestic terrorist Timothy McVeigh, but I don't remember any sort of insurgency breaking out because of them. It feels that this statistic was thrown in more to play to his narrative than anything else.

I also have my thoughts on the rich, particularly the business rich (<$25 million) versus the uber-rich (large enough pools of money to be self sustaining) and taxation policies for both. I'll save that for another day though.

12/3/2009 12:30:12 PM

I agree with most of those points. You'll still have people arguing that the only solution is more government spending.

12/3/2009 12:30:36 PM

^I agree.

McDanger, that seems like a problem with politicians not rich people.

12/3/2009 12:37:20 PM

Seems like a problem with both, how could you not see that?

12/3/2009 12:44:50 PM

whats a good book i can read on ways to fight back against all these conseqences and how goverment needs to get out of the way? im trying to learn more about what to fight for before i start my business.

12/3/2009 12:46:38 PM

I'm ready for some good old-fashioned wealth-redistribution Cap personal estate at 1 billion.

12/3/2009 1:04:21 PM

Quote :

"Cap personal estate at 1 billion."

Get ready for a bunch of poor republicans to run in here with the for the rich

12/3/2009 1:14:37 PM

reason #16. president obama being elected

oooopppsss

12/3/2009 1:18:48 PM

I dont see it that way McDanger. Rich people cant take my money without my consent, they need a politician. The only ones that can TAKE my money.

Why not cap it at 100k. Imagine how many people we help in the world if we can only have 100k and the govt takes the rest. We could have solar powered pencils. Amazing. Imagine how much better things will be if we cap it at 10k.

12/3/2009 1:21:41 PM

Quote :

"Rich people cant take my money without my consent, they need a politician."

This isn't true at all.

Quote :

"Why not cap it at 100k. Imagine how many people we help in the world if we can only have 100k and the govt takes the rest. We could have solar powered pencils. Amazing. Imagine how much better things will be if we cap it at 10k."

Depends on where you live doesn't it? I'm not sure 10K affords a good standard of living anywhere unless you're single, healthy, and in a cheap city.

12/3/2009 1:22:44 PM

Quote :

"15) In the past year, 100 new armed militia groups have been formed, as militia members have doubled in numbers."

al qaeda in america!! crashin, hijacking jets, and bombing market squares, since 2008!!!

12/3/2009 1:24:48 PM

Americans don't have the balls to do anything like that anymore. Leave that to desperate people, not comfortable, slovenly red necks with mental disabilities.

12/3/2009 1:25:53 PM

Quote :

"Cap personal estate at 1 billion."

that would be a great way to get rid of jobs i agree. Then we can all be poor together!

12/3/2009 1:25:53 PM

Nobody would ever hire anybody if they couldn't reap 1+ billion at it. I agree!

12/3/2009 1:27:08 PM

money buys power. in order to mitigate this affect, progressive taxation at least accounts for this disparity in power by providing more tax relief to those with less ability to pay and shifts it to those with not only more ability to pay, but more importantly, those with the most power-buying ability. It rectifies not just vast income inequality, but vaster power inequality as well. if we taxed the wealthy at 50% and gave everyone free healthcare, the wealthy would still have access to all the real wealth, the corporate welfare, the tax shelters, the investments, etc.

then again, more and more 20-30 something white males vote based on the belief that someday they will be the guy with all the money power hustle respekt than vote based on anything else, really. why have comfort and sustainability when you have an outside shot at buying and island someday? you give your money to charity and its the poors fault that they're not taking advantage of your wise, learned generosity. its better than BIG GUBMINT (which is the only response to laizzes faire, as we've discussed on here, not as if the big guv could itself be a democratic extension of all of us and not a adversary if we cared about democracy at all).

whatever, im wasting my breath, we've settled the argument here that you have 2 choices: ron paul or comrade von hitlerstalin obama

[Edited on December 3, 2009 at 1:34 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2009 1:31:59 PM

care to explain how they can take my money mcdanger?

10k will be enough, remember thats all everyone will be allowed to have. The great utopia. We need to lower the bar enough for true equality...right?

12/3/2009 1:34:59 PM

I just figured out how trickle-down economics works: You have to kill rich people and their beneficiaries until the inherited estate wealth reaches the middle class.

12/3/2009 1:35:30 PM

Quote :

"14) Is the small arms and ammunition industry reaping record profits because gun proliferation is going nuts or perhaps the small issue that THERE ARE TWO WARS we are engaged in at the present moment? Yes, President Obama's election helped fueled an increased sale in firearms that isn't really altering the guns-per-citizen ratio by much at all (and the sales are beginning to taper off). However, ammunition prices have practically doubled thanks to the high demand by the Federal government. I think this is thrown in more for effect than for real concern."

fyi,

i just bought some stock in SWHC, and might also pick up some RGR

12/3/2009 1:36:54 PM

hows it utopian to tax a rich person at 40% and give a person without healthcare healthcare? i didn't realize that people had no other incentive to work than to just get the necessities of life. work to live. live to work.

12/3/2009 1:38:36 PM

Quote :

"Nobody would ever hire anybody if they couldn't reap 1+ billion at it. I agree!"

Its not so much about people wont create jobs if they cant get $texas, its how that money wont be available to new business. If someone has the opportunity to invest and get $1bil in the US vs $10 bil overseas why would you think they'd want to stay in the us?

A $1bil wealth cap would lead to growth overseas and in the hidden bank account industry.

12/3/2009 1:49:39 PM

^a more skilled workforce? better infrastructure? cultural issues? ask all the tech call centers moving back here to Virginia from India and the Philippines.

12/3/2009 1:53:24 PM

Because America!

12/3/2009 1:55:56 PM

Quote :

"If I remember, was Goldman one of those banks that was forced to take taxpayer money in order to hide from the markets which banks were on the verge of insolvency?"

No.

12/3/2009 1:58:02 PM

^^ you wouldn't have any jobs to be able to afford something you needed tech support on. That shit would go overseas with the money. You'd also probably see migration of middle/upper middle class americans to whereever these jobs go as well.

Someone who currently has $10 bil in the US, will pay $5 bil to move enough of his business to another country so he can retain $5 bil instead of losing $9 to the fed.


I mean it would probably be pretty great for whatever country they go to. If enough people were down they could clear out part of africa, set up shop, exploit the cheap local labor, and provide a new place to earn $texas for those who want out of the US.

12/3/2009 2:01:23 PM

Quote :

"care to explain how they can take my money mcdanger? 10k will be enough, remember thats all everyone will be allowed to have. The great utopia. We need to lower the bar enough for true equality...right?"

Of course not. We should promote equality insofar as it improves life for the worst-off. At least that's the argument I buy. Strict equality may make life for everybody not-so-great; if that's true, then we wouldn't want to promote equality to that degree now, would we?

Insurance (and bullshit claims-denial) is a great example of how the rich take your money.

12/3/2009 2:03:28 PM

Ill disagree about equality. I think as a matter of policy you have to treat everyone as equals. In regards to taxes, laws, etc.

Thus if you would rather spend 40 hours a week fishing and 10 working, fine. Just dont expect the same lifestyle as someone who spends 50 hours working. They have different values. You shouldnt take MORE from the worker to raise the lifestyle of the fishing. (yes we need a safety net for those truely in need, but is govt the best source for this?)

And for your example, insurance. I can choose to buy or not buy insurance. I choose to buy it bc it lowers my financial risk in case of an emergency. But I make the decision to buy. Got another? As far as claims denial, If I feel i was treated wrongly there is legal recourse. And, again, im free to take my dollar to another company.

12/3/2009 2:16:47 PM

Quote :

"you wouldn't have any jobs to be able to afford something you needed tech support on. That shit would go overseas with the money."

I didn't just make up what i wrote about about call centers moving back. There are more factors than the overly simple scenario you thought up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121003574.html

Quote :

"You'd also probably see migration of middle/upper middle class americans to whereever these jobs go as well."

maybe some pedophiles or strange otaku libertarian sociopaths looking for somewhere that they can feel powerful might move to Thailand or the Phillipines, but come on, there's a serious social/cultural gap between here and other developing countries and if you think any significant number of Americans will downgrade like that, you need to get off the internet for a few.

Quote :

"I mean it would probably be pretty great for whatever country they go to. If enough people were down they could clear out part of africa, set up shop, exploit the cheap local labor, and provide a new place to earn $texas for those who want out of the US."

Some countries do this by giving other incentives other than a cheap labor force. Indians aren't just desired b/c they're cheap.

Not to mention, benevolent American venture capitalists weren't needed to start up some of the best tech companies today (all Sony needed was the design for the transistor and their own ingenuity). Heck, some were even gov. owned or protected for a long time (Samsung, Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, ArcelorMittal, Tata).

12/3/2009 2:20:04 PM

wow with these 15 problems..

sound like rich whitey with all his money stemming back from owning all the slaves is holding society back and making this the worst place to live on earth.

the only way to solve this is a ritualistic murder of every white man woman and child that makes 70k or more a year.

12/3/2009 2:33:22 PM

Yes.....YES!

12/3/2009 2:54:24 PM

why can't liberals just come out and say it.

they are just beating around the bush for too long. cmon guys.

12/3/2009 3:07:17 PM

^ Look, we get that you don't like "liberals," but is there a reason for you to tell us in just about EVERY SINGLE MOTHERFUCKING POST that you add in The Soap Box? We get it. How about debating on some merits, instead of "boo hoo liberals are wrong and fuck you for being a liberal?"

You add nothing when you mindlessly keep doing this.

12/3/2009 3:31:10 PM

Quote :

"One out of every two children in the United States of America will need to use a food stamp… to EAT!"

Sounds like some parents need to take some responsibility and stop having children they can not afford and/or we need
stop demonizing abortions. My g/f was telling me about how the girl in her CNA class (a pre-req at local community college needed
for her 4-year B.S in nursing) had a sister who at 16 was knocked up by her mom's ex boyfriend. I am sure this mother and
a baby will not require government assitance [/sarcasm].

Having children subsidized by the tax-payer is not a right.

Quote :

"13) Lack of health insurance has caused 45,000 preventable U.S. citizen deaths in the past year. "

I think an overhaul is needed but do not think we can afford a public option unless we start using the ax on other
costly programs.

Quote :

"The gun and ammunition manufacturing industry in the United States has over 200 companies producing billions of dollars in annual revenues."

This is because idiot rednecks are stocking up b.c Obama is going to take their guns or after ignoring
years of shitting on the constitution by bush a "cut and spend" conservative they are finally about to rebel now that a "tax and spend" liberal
is running the show.

Quote :

"In the past year, 100 new armed militia groups have been formed, as militia members have doubled in numbers. Federal authorities are gravely concerned about the “uptick in militia activities." One federal authority recently said, “All it’s lacking is a spark. "

I don't care how trained or armed this hillbilly militia groups are. Good luck with your AR-15 when the AC-130 ravages
your output in the Upper Peninsula (Michigan) or the NSA hacks your comm channels and black vans roll up to your house at midnight
to abduct you.

Quote :

"money buys power. in order to mitigate this affect, progressive taxation at least accounts for this disparity in power by providing more tax relief to those with less ability to pay and shifts it to those with not only more ability to pay, "

this is the only reason i somewhat can understand a progressive income tax system. Nevertheless anything funding
medicare or "universal health care" should be funded by a regressive tax system. Medicare is already capped at $90,000
but responsible people should not be punished b.c Jimmie Rae wanted to buy a Dodge Ram super-duty 2010 instead of a used
F-150 that would allow him to buy health insurance for his family.

Quote :

" then again, more and more 20-30 something white males vote based on the belief that someday they will be the guy with all the money power hustle respekt"

This is sad but true; hence the blue-collar support of the tea parties eventhough obama's politics probably help them.

Quote :

"Ill disagree about equality. I think as a matter of policy you have to treat everyone as equals. In regards to taxes, laws"

Fundamentally I agree but I think lobbyists and "special interests" has way to much power for the system to work purely
by lassiez-faire.

12/3/2009 3:44:19 PM

Quote :

"Having children subsidized by the tax-payer is not a right."

it would be nice if people like you or i did more for charity than give $20 to the Salvation Army at Christmastime and constantly saying "dont use my tax money! go get charity!". then you wouldn't sound so silly.

abolish society.

[Edited on December 3, 2009 at 3:54 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2009 3:54:34 PM

Quote :

""Having children subsidized by the tax-payer is not a right.""

I agree. If you are on welfare, then you should have to take BC. I would also push for the alternatives like the morning after pill to be easy to access to cut down on the numbers seeking abortions. imo

Currently if you have a child it is a financial liablity, except for those on the system. Taking out of some of thier welfare checks to help cover the costs in increased food stamps and healthcare would be a step in the right direction. Instead we expand coverage for those on the system, making it MORE of a financial liablity for those off the system to have and raise kids, so they have less and the ones on have more. Simple matter of incentives.

12/3/2009 4:02:05 PM

Quote :

"^ Look, we get that you don't like "liberals," but is there a reason for you to tell us in just about EVERY SINGLE MOTHERFUCKING POST that you add in The Soap Box? We get it. How about debating on some merits, instead of "boo hoo liberals are wrong and fuck you for being a liberal?" You add nothing when you mindlessly keep doing this."

yeh i said "boo hoo liberals are wrong and fuck you for being a liberal?". all over the place. ha

just come out and say the true roots of all these issues.

all these 'economic tyranical issues' are based in 1 thing. come out and hit the root of the problem.

12/3/2009 4:07:20 PM

Quote :

"Currently if you have a child it is a financial liablity, except for those on the system."

This is my single biggest issue with the welfare state. Sure we do not want people starving on the streets, punish the children, or some people have circumstances that may warrant for government aid (state or federal). So be it, however, in the current
system we pretty much induce a positive feedback loop. Once you sink into the hole there is no longer any financial liability for having children but instead a reward.

12/3/2009 4:08:07 PM

so either concede some supposed "freedoms" to the government or have your kids not get essentials.

i'm sure you work for or give a ton to a charity so as to make sure noone has to be subjected to such things, right?

12/3/2009 4:10:03 PM