Quote :

"Progress Energy will soon pay customers $50 for old refrigerators and freezers. The N.C. Utilities Commission approved the rebate program today to help cut down energy waste in the state. The Raleigh-based electric utility expects to begin offering the rebates next month. Progress will pick up old appliances at customers' homes and haul them to a recycling facility. Customers would be limited to two $50 rebates per year. Eligibility will be limited to refrigerators and freezers actively in use with a volume of 10 to 30 cubic feet. "Appliance recycling programs like the one proposed by [Progress Energy] are offered fairly universally across the country and are credited with taking thousands of relatively inefficient appliances out of circulation," the utilities commission wrote in its order approving the Progress program. The state's power companies are bound by a 2007 state law to increase energy-efficiency programs. Customers will be able to pair the Progress rebate with a deal from the feds that for a limited time in April will offer 15 percent discounts on Energy Star appliances. Stores that sell appliances usually offer to remove the old appliances for free, but not all customers take advantage of the offers, Progress spokesman Jeff Brooks said. The purpose of Progress's offer is to make sure the old appliances are taken out of use rather than being plugged in in the attic or garage as a backup, Brooks said. The company expects the program to cost $11.2 million by 2014. Progress would recover the costs by increasing monthly bills for all customers. The company estimates that 66,662 households — or 5 percent of its North Carolina customers - would take advantage of the rebate through 2014. Read more: http://blogs.newsobserver.com/business/progress-energy-to-offer-50-for-old-appliances#ixzz0ixwnwyhq "

Ok, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?

We are going to pay more for our electricity to so that people will not put their old appliances on craigslist or use them in the basement?!?!?!?!?!?!

3/22/2010 11:18:05 PM

just wait till you get to pay the "Healthcare affordability fee" which will charge you 50 bux extra every time you go to the doctor in order to make the doctor more affordable, lol

3/22/2010 11:20:48 PM

I am gonna start picking up two ragged ass refrigerators a year to turn in to get my money back.

3/22/2010 11:40:03 PM

this is stupid.

3/23/2010 10:44:13 AM

^i agree.

we're already paying for those stupid save the watts commercials with the lightbulb man. the problem is here:

Quote :

"The state's power companies are bound by a 2007 state law to increase energy-efficiency programs."

this is not in the power companies' best interests, so of course they're gonna do it in a way that is cost-neutral to them. the easiest way for the power company to make up for that money is by raising rates.

it's all a bunch of PR bullshit.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 10:59 AM. Reason : fads]

3/23/2010 10:56:10 AM

http://www.ncuc.commerce.state.nc.us/consumer/complaints.htm

Call or email them to complain.

3/23/2010 10:59:07 AM

^^Hold on a second, all the politicians tell me that the utility companies won't pass on the new costs to the consumer.













lied to again

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:38 AM. Reason : ^thanks, I did complain.]

3/23/2010 11:32:18 AM

an old refridgerator can use upwards of 1,500kWh a year, maybe more if it's running outside (which is where a lot of old refridgerators are kept.) New fridges typically consume a fifth of that. Getting rid of 100,000 refridgerators would help delay the installation of additional generation and transmission capacity.

This is a lot less shady than the installation of additional regulator banks for load management that a lot of utilities are doing now. You're paying a hell of lot more for them to be installed, and they have the dirty little secret in that they can be boosted up to make you consume MORE power during off-peak times in an effort to boost revenue for the utility.

3/23/2010 12:37:16 PM

^all well and good, but if the refrigerators are so inefficient people will throw them out anyway due to the cost of operating them.

Here's the reply I got:

Quote :

"This letter is in response to the Appliance Recycling Program: G.S. 62-133.8 (Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard) “Electric utilities are required to comply with G.S. 62-133.8 (Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard), and are allowed to do so in part by reducing energy consumption through energy efficiency programs and measures, such as the Appliance Recycling Program approved by the North Carolina Utilities Commission (Commission). The Commission has adopted specific rules for monitoring and enforcement of this statute. Any energy efficiency program, such as the Appliance Recycling Program, must be filed with and approved by the Commission before any electric utility can offer it to its customers. In addition, G.S. 62-133.9 (Cost recovery for demand-side management and energy efficiency measures), requires electric utilities to submit for Commission approval and to implement cost-effective demand-side management and energy efficiency measures. Cost-effective means that the costs saved by the program exceed the costs to implement and run the program. The Commission is required to approve an annual rider charge to allow the electric utilities to recover all reasonable and prudent actual costs to implement and run the new demand-side management and energy efficiency programs, as well as approving incentives to encourage electric utilities to adopt these programs. The Commission, through its rules implementing this statute, has determined that incentives can include the recovery of lost profits (the profits that the Company lost due to reduced sales) or other incentives based on how effective the program is at saving energy. All of the electric utilities’ approved programs, such as the Appliance Recycling Program, are subject to ongoing evaluation, measurement, and verification, with Commission oversight. If, at any point, a program ceases to be cost-effective, the Commission will require the electric utilities to modify the program to make it cost-effective, or if that is not possible, to cancel the program. While customers will pay an annual rider to recover the costs and incentives of the energy efficiency programs, by only approving cost-effective programs, the Commission ensures that the costs of the rider are less than costs associated with building and operating a new power plant to serve the load.” Sincerely, Vickie Debnam, Complaint Analyst Public Staff - Consumer Services Division"

Not the most convincing rebuttal, but I suppose I'm seeing more of the big picture.

3/26/2010 4:06:10 PM

Personally, I support this

A) I live in Charlotte and am a Duke Energy customer
B) I own stock in Progress Energy

3/26/2010 4:12:18 PM

ass

3/26/2010 4:27:19 PM

meh...my dividend checks for 2009 totalled like $160

3/26/2010 4:31:59 PM

when i was first saw this thread i thought it was about the show "Fringe" and I was like
but then i actually read the title and I was like

3/26/2010 4:41:09 PM

Quote :

"all well and good, but if the refrigerators are so inefficient people will throw them out anyway due to the cost of operating them. "

I'd wager that 95% of people have no idea how much electricity their refridgerator consumes, and even the ones that do can't justify the cost of a new refridgerator and the cost to throw away the old one through their energy savings.

3/26/2010 5:50:19 PM

^I wonder how many people don't know even know how to spell refrigerator?























And if they don't know how much energy their fridge consumes well so f*cking what. Should we put rebate programs into effect b/c people are stupid? (well we might but) we shouldn't.

3/26/2010 9:53:37 PM

Quote :

"This is a lot less shady than the installation of additional regulator banks for load management that a lot of utilities are doing now. You're paying a hell of lot more for them to be installed, and they have the dirty little secret in that they can be boosted up to make you consume MORE power during off-peak times in an effort to boost revenue for the utility."

I would love for you to explain how capacitor banks in a transmission substation cause my home to use more real power.

Quote :

"Not the most convincing rebuttal, but I suppose I'm seeing more of the big picture."

Also, what's not "convincing"? Electric rates are controlled by the utilities commission, not by the utility (unless you live in Rocky Mount or one of those other cities served by municipal power...those people are fucked). Paying for conservation programs is cheaper than paying for a new plant.

3/27/2010 10:04:03 AM

Quote :

"I would love for you to explain how capacitor banks in a transmission substation cause my home to use more real power. "

they're installing more voltage regulators on the distribution lines in conjunction with switched capacitor banks, and these devices correct voltage drop along the distribution line. The voltage they pump out at the substation is usually based on what is necessary to prevent voltage drop at the end of the line from exceeding 5%. by installing voltage regulators on the distribution line, they can boost the voltage incrementally along the line outside of the substation and have more finite control of the voltage along the entire circuit. By lowering the voltage at the substation as much as possible and boosting it with voltage regulators, utilities can reduce energy consumption and offset peak demand. Conversely, they can boost voltage during other times and increase energy consumption, which in turn boosts revenue.

The appliances in your house are designed to run on 120V, plus or minus 5%. if the utility can deliberately lower the voltage at your house by 5%, they can reduce the energy consumption of most devices in your house by ~8%. If they can raise the voltage at your house by 5%, your energy consumption will go up by ~8%.

3/27/2010 10:12:39 PM

^ That is less true over-time. Nowadays, almost everything in your home draws a specific power, as long as the voltage is within the margins. Only incandescent lightbulbs and dumb power-bricks will consume more power. Maybe a desk fan. Resistive heating systems, such as your oven or space heater will draw more power while on, but thanks to the thermostat, they will spend more time off, equaling out. All our modern technology, from computers to TVs to CFLs, use power regulators which will reduce their current consumption as voltage increases. This would reduce power consumption overall as voltage increased and wire-losses from current decreased.

Am I forgetting anything? The only thing I am unsure of is AC motors. But, since most of these will be rigged for a fixed speed of operation, they must be moderating their power consumption somehow.

[Edited on March 28, 2010 at 5:25 PM. Reason : .,.]

3/28/2010 5:23:14 PM

power supplies don't regulate current consumption; they assume that the voltage supplied by the utility is well regulated and convert the AC voltage into DC. some high-end power supplies have harmonic filters in them to remove transient currents and correct power factor problems, but these do absolutely nothing to regulate a raised source voltage. If the utility jacks up the source voltage, the power consumption of the entire device will increase.

What you said about thermostat regulated devices is true for strip heat loads like ovens, but it's not true for heat pumps and AC units. cranking up the power output of the compressor and the fans won't cause the heat exchanger and condensor units to become more efficient, so that added power is being wasted.

3/28/2010 8:58:18 PM

Quote :

"The company expects the program to cost $11.2 million by 2014. Progress would recover the costs by increasing monthly bills for all customers."

3/28/2010 9:00:02 PM

^^ even if they jack the voltage to 125 at non peak times, your still only looking at a small number of appliances that will cost more to run. Plus when all the AC and Heat pumps are running partially defines peak time.

Modern lighting sources will have a ballast which will limit actual power consumed.

3/29/2010 3:22:18 PM

eleusis, you are absolutely wrong on most counts. Most electronics today have switched mode power supplies which will output a constant voltage to the electronics regardless of the voltage they get in. And thanks to the miracle of inductance, a higher or lower line voltage will have very little impact upon power consumption. And like I said, while such power supplies used to be rare, only found in PCs, they are now found in everything from TVs to cell phone chargers to CFLs.

Back in the day, if the line voltage increased, your TV would get brighter. That is no longer the case, as the power is now being regulated by electronics.

As for AC motors, I am not certain. But I suspect the rotational speed of the motors in your home is being set by the frequency, not the voltage, of the grid. Does anyone else here know for certain? Other than eleusis, which apparently has never heard of a switched-mode power supply.

3/29/2010 4:07:55 PM

Quote :

"eleusis, you are absolutely wrong on most counts. Most electronics today have switched mode power supplies which will output a constant voltage to the electronics regardless of the voltage they get in. And thanks to the miracle of inductance, a higher or lower line voltage will have very little impact upon power consumption. And like I said, while such power supplies used to be rare, only found in PCs, they are now found in everything from TVs to cell phone chargers to CFLs. Back in the day, if the line voltage increased, your TV would get brighter. That is no longer the case, as the power is now being regulated by electronics. "

I would also be more than happy to bring home my multi-meter to test my outlet voltage at various times of the day. Will report back to tWW my findings.

3/29/2010 6:40:06 PM

Quote :

"eleusis, you are absolutely wrong on most counts. Most electronics today have switched mode power supplies which will output a constant voltage to the electronics regardless of the voltage they get in. And thanks to the miracle of inductance, a higher or lower line voltage will have very little impact upon power consumption. And like I said, while such power supplies used to be rare, only found in PCs, they are now found in everything from TVs to cell phone chargers to CFLs. Back in the day, if the line voltage increased, your TV would get brighter. That is no longer the case, as the power is now being regulated by electronics. As for AC motors, I am not certain. But I suspect the rotational speed of the motors in your home is being set by the frequency, not the voltage, of the grid. Does anyone else here know for certain? Other than eleusis, which apparently has never heard of a switched-mode power supply. "

you are absolutely wrong about how switched mode power supplies work. Do some fucking homework before you go spouting off shit you don't understand. I want you to find one example of a switched mode power supply where the Vout is not a function of Vin. When you can do this, you might have a leg to stand on. I know you can't do this, so your arguments don't have a leg to stand on.

AC motors aren't regulated by the frequency of the line unless you're talking about three phase synchronous motors. induction motors are somewhat proportional to the line frequency, as their slip speed is based off of the synchronous speed of the base AC signal and the number of poles. An induction motor running at synchronous speed produces no torque at all. Once the motor starts slipping from the rotating field, it generates torque proportional to the line voltage. Raising the line voltage increases the torque output and power consumption of the motor at a given speed.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make by arguing with me on this topic. I've attended several seminars where this exact issue has been discussed in depth as a solution to load management and energy conservation. Duke and Progress are currently doing just this and being paid to do so by the PSC. This isn't some fluke theory of mine; it's a current industry practice.

3/29/2010 10:26:44 PM

Quote :

"I want you to find one example of a switched mode power supply where the Vout is not a function of Vin."

I have designed several for my work. Would you like to come by my desk sometime? I have an oscilloscope and multimeter standing by. Just tested my cell phone charger to make sure, it has one too: the tell-tell sign is when current consumption falls as voltage supplied increases.

3/29/2010 11:35:01 PM

Oh shit ITS ON!!!

Battle of the electrical engineering nerds.

I'll go ask Big Jim tomorrow. I am sure he will be quite amused at this thread. While not most qualified to speak on this topic, surely he will have an opinion.

3/30/2010 12:02:26 AM

you haven't designed shit, kid, so don't pull that shit.

3/30/2010 12:14:29 AM

All homes require an ancient fridge.

It doesn't necessarily have to be plugged in.

But as you plug it in and stock it with beer, you earn bonus American Points.

I'm just saying.

[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 12:24 AM. Reason : ]

3/30/2010 12:24:27 AM