http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7076431.ece

Quote :

"After failing to extract a written promise of concessions on Jewish settlements, Mr Obama walked out of his meeting with Mr Netanyahu but invited him to stay at the White House, consult with advisors and “let me know if there is anything new”, a US congressman who spoke to the Prime Minister said today."

Quote :

"Sources said that Mr Netanyahu failed to impress Mr Obama with a flow chart purporting to show that he was not be responsible for the timing of announcements of new settlement projects in east Jerusalem. "

Our President is the absolute shit

3/25/2010 8:19:50 PM

A fucking flow chart? ahahahahaha.

3/25/2010 8:24:48 PM

A fucking flow chart? ahahahahaha.

3/25/2010 8:30:00 PM

that is pretty gangsta. even stephen colbert has got to be impressed with the amount of balls that takes

3/25/2010 8:31:12 PM

can anyone explain to me why israel is of vital strategic importance to the United States? Why can't we cut the cord, or at least distance ourselves somewhat? Why, other than their ridiculous beliefs stemming from the bible, do conservatives have such a hard on for israel. Wouldn't a two-state solution be much more vital to our national interests than Israel doing whatever the fuck it wants?

[Edited on March 25, 2010 at 9:38 PM. Reason : /]

3/25/2010 9:38:17 PM

i'm pretty sure our government fully supports and is seeking a two-state solution

[Edited on March 25, 2010 at 9:49 PM. Reason : and i agree, this is a pretty bold, bad-ass move by obama]

3/25/2010 9:44:57 PM

I think a none-of-our-fucking-business-state solution would be in our best interest

3/25/2010 9:50:06 PM

^^on paper it looks great, yeah. but no one is willing to make the tough choices. like, i don't know, once in a while condemning israel, withholding military aid, you know, some type of incentive for Israel to get their shit together.

3/25/2010 9:52:03 PM

two thumbs up to obama on this one

3/25/2010 9:53:03 PM

GG Obama, seriously. The comments on the article are IMO wrong. This does not demonstrate an immaturity of Obama, rather it appears to me to demonstrate him taking a clear and defined stand that we have certain expectations about the behavior of our allies, and when we have concerns about that behavior, we expect them to be addressed and discussed productively, rather than with bullshit flow charts out of the AIG Accounting Playbook.

3/25/2010 10:01:35 PM

Quote :

"two thumbs up to obama on this one"

3/25/2010 10:51:59 PM

I approve. I like Israel better than a lot of the alternatives, but it's about time we started reminding them that our attention isn't just a given.

Quote :

"Why, other than their ridiculous beliefs stemming from the bible, do conservatives have such a hard on for israel."

I'll lay this out for you real quick. Mind you, I'm not claiming this logic is correct; I'm just telling you it's what a lot of people think.

Arabs/Muslims have tried to blow us up a lot. Oh, maybe not us individually, but our countrymen and whatnot. Mind you, it could be argued that certain groups of Muslims/Arabs have good and cogent reasons for the occasionally bombing, but it's hard to think clearly when a plane full of people you identify with gets blown up or crashed into a building full of people you identify with.

Now, even though our support of Israel is a big part of the reason why Arabs/Muslims have tried to blow us up in the past, it's much easier to notice that:

a) They haven't really tried to blow any of us up.
b) They consistently claim to like us.
c) They blow up people who are kinda-sorta related to the people that try to blow us up.
d) They kinda-sorta have a democracy, and we get all soft and fuzzy about democracies.
e) They act a lot like we would, if we were surrounded by a bunch of low-tech people that wanted to fuck with us. In fact, they act like we have under those circumstances, which is why we had an army in Mexico for years before WWI. Fortunately Mexicans are allowed to drink, which calmed them down somewhat.
f) They are bad-ass, and Americans like bad-asses. They've consistently whipped larger coalitions under all kinds of circumstances, and we approve.
g) We feel bad about the Holocaust.

This isn't rocket science or theology. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. People who are like me get preference over people who are different from me. Wow, it really sucks how many of you guys got sent to gas chambers.

There. I have explained it.

3/26/2010 3:28:56 AM

When you believe that the people of Israel are God's chosen people, and that the end times are coming etc, "protecting" Israel is a pretty big priority.

3/26/2010 3:40:22 AM

I've no doubt that there are people who support Israel for that reason. But I think the overwhelming majority of it comes from

1) All them Jew dollars what get thrown at Congress
2) The reasons I listed in the above post.

3/26/2010 3:41:54 AM

GG Obama... Fuck You Netanyahu.

In answer to jwb9984:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e5e4a218-35b4-11df-963f-00144feabdc0.html

Quote :

"Hillary Clinton: “Our commitment to Israel’s security and Israel’s future is rock solid, unwavering, enduring and forever.”"

P.S. She said that to an audience of 7,500 Jews (the AIPAC lobby)


[Edited on March 26, 2010 at 6:24 AM. Reason : ]

3/26/2010 6:23:57 AM

Grumpy, as usual, good post. And I agree with pretty much everything in it.

What amazes me though is that if we really care about the security of Israel AND the United States so much, which we should obviously, why is it so fucking difficult for people in this country to realize that all the unwavering support for Israel, even when they're in the wrong, which they are sometimes, does nothing to strengthen either countries' security. Presidents and congress especially are so concerned about the short term domestic political effects of taking a tougher stand on Israel, thanks to the public's ignorance, that they're completely unwilling make decisions that in the long run will ultimately bring real peace and security for both countries.

Maybe Obama, who seems to have extraordinary patience and a broader, more long term outlook on other issues, can get the ball rolling. We'll see, but congress will have to step up too, and not undermine his efforts. How likely is that though?

3/26/2010 8:03:07 AM

From the article:

Quote :

"Left to talk among themselves Mr Netanyahu and his aides retreated to the Roosevelt Room."

You think Teddy Roosevelt would have put up with this shit? Teddy Roosevelt would have pimped smacked that bitch with his second dick. We need more ass-kicking in our presidents and less ass-licking.

3/26/2010 8:44:15 AM

Comment left on the Foxnews.com website article:

Quote :

"davidmurray Vietnam Israel existed long before America was even thought of, and we be there when America is gone.. Maybe it's because Israelis don't elect NIGGERS as their President ! !"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/president-allegedly-dumps-israeli-prime-minister-dinner/


:facepalm:

3/26/2010 9:00:16 AM

^ way too much stupid in that comment

3/26/2010 9:07:27 AM

Quote :

"two thumbs up to obama on this one"

3/26/2010 10:00:05 AM

This is awesome.

3/26/2010 10:31:45 AM

Quote :

" two thumbs up to obama on this one"

3/26/2010 10:32:03 AM

ownage

3/26/2010 2:20:41 PM

ya that owns pretty hard.

3/26/2010 2:24:01 PM

I like it.

3/26/2010 2:30:29 PM

Damn good post GumpyGOP.

3/26/2010 2:48:11 PM

Quote :

" a) They haven't really tried to blow any of us up. b) They consistently claim to like us. c) They blow up people who are kinda-sorta related to the people that try to blow us up. d) They kinda-sorta have a democracy, and we get all soft and fuzzy about democracies. e) They act a lot like we would, if we were surrounded by a bunch of low-tech people that wanted to fuck with us. In fact, they act like we have under those circumstances, which is why we had an army in Mexico for years before WWI. Fortunately Mexicans are allowed to drink, which calmed them down somewhat. f) They are bad-ass, and Americans like bad-asses. They've consistently whipped larger coalitions under all kinds of circumstances, and we approve. g) We feel bad about the Holocaust. 1) All them Jew dollars what get thrown at Congress"

fixed*

They 'whipped larger coalitions...' because of US funding and arming NOT because they are badass and their funding/arming sprouted out of the ground. So in all fairness whichever side got US support was going to easily win.

Everything else false under US/Western backing of Israel which now makes the US a target. Without the US propping up Israel, they would have had no chance in hell at anything.

So in short, these aren't reasons why the US supports Israel but rather consequences.

Quote :

"d) They kinda-sorta have a democracy, and we get all soft and fuzzy about democracies."

This is also questionable. Sure thats a sell to the general public but when push comes to shove the US is no more in favor for a democracy in a foreign country then any other form of government when it comes down to US best interests. As we have seen in South America many times.

Quote :

"Maybe Obama, who seems to have extraordinary patience and a broader, more long term outlook on other issues, can get the ball rolling. We'll see, but congress will have to step up too, and not undermine his efforts. How likely is that though?"

And here is the downside of democracy or a 2 term limit. Any 'good' that Obama might do that will benefit more long term than short term can be undone after he loses an election or serves out his 2 terms by the next President.

Quote :

"This isn't rocket science or theology. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. People who are like me get preference over people who are different from me. Wow, it really sucks how many of you guys got sent to gas chambers."

When did Arabs become enemies of the United States?

[Edited on March 26, 2010 at 3:05 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2010 2:58:08 PM

Golovko, I can be very patient in explaining myself over and over:

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: Mind you, I'm not claiming this logic is correct; I'm just telling you it's what a lot of people think."

Now, to respond to your other points:

I don't think Arabs are enemies of the United States. I don't think that most people, even pro-Israel people, think that. They do think that certain Arab and/or Muslim affiliated groups like Hezbollah and Hamas are enemies of the United States, and Israel blows up Hezbollah and Hamas sites and personnel from time to time. It was from this that I drew point "b" above, which you seemed to find objectionable.

Quote :

"when push comes to shove the US is no more in favor for a democracy in a foreign country then any other form of government when it comes down to US best interests."

This is true. However, for a variety of practical reasons (such as our international image), I think the government prefers it when our interests line up with other democracies. I also think that democracy in our allies is important to the average American, who sees a kinda-sorta democratic state next to a bunch of dictatorships and kingdoms.

Quote :

"They 'whipped larger coalitions...' because of US funding and arming NOT because they are badass and their funding/arming sprouted out of the ground."

I agree that US aid was indispensable to the Israelis in their military endeavors. I disagree that they are not bad-ass. And -- to be crystal clear here -- I'm not in any way suggesting that bad-ass-ness justifies or should take the place of decency, self-determination, what have you.

Quote :

"So in short, these aren't reasons why the US supports Israel but rather consequences. "

It's a positive feedback loop. Yes, if the US hadn't supported Israel in the 40's and 50's it wouldn't have been able to do what it did. But the people who provided that support are all dead now. The people who came after saw a democracy full of tough-as-nails, make-the-desert-bloom, uzi-inventing people and said, "Wow, those guys are awesome and they're on our side, let's send them shit."

----

Now onto jwb9984:

Quote :

"is it so fucking difficult for people in this country to realize that all the unwavering support for Israel . . . does nothing to strengthen either countries' security."

Let's say you're at a bar with a friend of yours. Your friend gets a few drinks in him and makes a pass at a girl. The guy's boyfriend is not amused and says something. Your friend should back down, but the boyfriend was kind of rude, and so your friend calls the guy a douche. The exchange keeps heating up until a fight is imminent.

You know your friend should have just apologized and let it be, but he's your friend, and he's about to get beat up. Do you "Fuck it, he dug his own grave" or do you try to help him out by standing beside him and looking tough?

I think for a lot of Americans the mentality is, "Israel's a good guy, really, he's just a little drunk."

Quote :

"they're completely unwilling make decisions that in the long run will ultimately bring real peace and security for both countries."

The problem is that we don't know what those decisions are. Sitting here right now it seems like, yeah, putting the pressure on Israel to back off would be better in the long run. Certainly, in the short term it washes our hands of some of their less pleasant activities, but there's all sorts of possible outcomes that are very, very nasty.

If certain elements in the Arab governments get the upper hand, maybe we're talking about Israel driven into the sea and atrocities against Jews.

If Israel says, "Fuck the US, who needs 'em?" and decides to really go buck wild, the possibilities are endless! Even worse treatment of Palestinians, war with Syria, nukes in Iran -- pick your favorite!

---

Now, THAT SAID, I too am in favor of applying pressure on Israel to get them to stop some of these shenanigans. But it needs to point out that such moves -- like any major policy shifts -- are not without risks, and that all politicians aren't just worried about getting Jew dollars for elections.

3/26/2010 3:52:39 PM

Quote :

"Mind you, I'm not claiming this logic is correct; I'm just telling you it's what a lot of people think."

I know, I got that part. I was just pointing out which ones are a cause of having the sort of relationship the US has with Israel now and which ones might be reasons for having said relationship in the first place.

Quote :

" I don't think Arabs are enemies of the United States. I don't think that most people, even pro-Israel people, think that. They do think that certain Arab and/or Muslim affiliated groups like Hezbollah and Hamas are enemies of the United States, and Israel blows up Hezbollah and Hamas sites and personnel from time to time. It was from this that I drew point "b" above, which you seemed to find objectionable. "

I think you mean point "c" above.

On that point though, these groups have formed out of desperation. No one backs the Arabs directly effected by Israel's shenanigans. They also can't fight Israel by conventional means just like insurgents can't fight US soldiers the same way. They don't have tanks, organized military structures, jets, sophisticated anti-air or defenses, funding from super powers, etc. They are fighting the only way they know how and the only way they think they have a chance at success with. We view this as terrorism.

[Edited on March 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2010 4:00:32 PM

also because we want to be close to the Suez Canal

3/26/2010 5:48:08 PM

I did mean point "c."

And I agree those groups are formed out of desperation, but that doesn't make them or their methods right, and it certainly doesn't make them any more palatable to Americans and others who have felt the brunt of them. When the average person hears a news broadcast about a bunch of US marines blown up in their barracks, their first thought isn't, "Well, I guess that's the only method available to the disadvantaged forces opposing American foreign policy that has adversely affected them and their region." Their first thought is, "Nuke the bastards."

I don't think Americans are alone in this, either. The British have allowed themselves to get a little stupid about Northern Ireland, the Spanish aren't always so detached and rational about the Basques, etc.

More importantly, groups like Hamas use a strategy that is not only morally dubious but also demonstrably counterproductive. Every rocket attack, suicide bombing, and kidnapping makes Israel angrier and less willing to talk, makes us more prone to supporting the stupid things Israel does, and generally puts Palestinians in a worse position.

At first maybe the hope was that these actions would provoke Israel enough that it would do something so bad that the other Arab countries would invade and win for a change. But it's pretty clear now that that's not going to happen.

As I have said in the other thread, a concerted nonviolence movement on the part of the Palestinians is by far the quickest road to achieving not only peace but also many of their goals, far quicker than the US pulling out support for Israel. It's not fair that the burden should be on Palestine to turn the other cheek -- there's plenty of assholery to go around -- but if what you want is a fair peace, that's what's got to happen.

Quote :

"They don't have tanks, organized military structures, jets, sophisticated anti-air or defenses, funding from super powers, etc."

To be perfectly fair, when they did have those things -- a la the Soviet Union -- it just made certain countries too big for their britches and they paid for it hard.

3/26/2010 6:14:06 PM

Quote :

"And I agree those groups are formed out of desperation, but that doesn't make them or their methods right, and it certainly doesn't make them any more palatable to Americans and others who have felt the brunt of them."

Reminds me a lot of the war of independence and what the British thought.

Quote :

"To be perfectly fair, when they did have those things -- a la the Soviet Union -- it just made certain countries too big for their britches and they paid for it hard."

What they had was not on the same scale as what Israel had...

Quote :

"also because we want to be close to the Suez Canal"

lol what? The Suez Canal is not in Israel

[Edited on March 26, 2010 at 6:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2010 6:33:09 PM

Quote :

"Close"

3/26/2010 6:37:14 PM

Quote :

"What they had was not on the same scale as what Israel had..."

Exactly, the USSR did give them some support solely on the enemy of my enemy thing, but they were fighting similar people in their own wars on their borders.

3/26/2010 6:54:10 PM

Quote :

"What they had was not on the same scale as what Israel had..."

When you have vastly superior numbers and the element of surprise I'm willing to handicap you a little on the materiel. Ditto when you have vastly superior numbers and are attacking a country that basically doesn't exist yet. And not only did they lose these wars, they often lost territory.

Quote :

"Reminds me a lot of the war of independence and what the British thought. "

You know, this would be a reasonable comparison if Americans had been shooting up British civilians to scare them, but we weren't. We weren't even big on shooting loyalists. The British were mad because we were fighting their soldiers in an unconventional way.

If the attacks of Hamas, et al. were targeted against the IDF, that'd be one thing. Hell, if they were even targeted against Israeli war production, maybe we could talk. I'll even go so far as to say that if the actions of Hamas could reasonably be said to reduce the will or ability of Israel to fight in any way maybe we'd be on the same page.

But those actions fit none of those qualifications. It has been clear for a while now that rocket attacks and suicide bombings don't reduce the will of Israelis to fight. They only aggravate the situation. At least when we dropped the big one on Hiroshima somebody could reasonably think, "Well, fuck, maybe if we do this they'll finally throw in the towel."

3/26/2010 7:02:52 PM

Quote :

"the element of surprise"

Israel launched a preemptive attack during the 6 day war, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Quote :

"Ditto when you have vastly superior numbers and are attacking a country that basically doesn't exist yet."

The Arabs hadn't been in a war in quite a while, Egypt was the only one with even a reasonable air force, and that was not protected, Israel had a modern army, they vastly outmatched the Arab forces.

Quote :

"You know, this would be a reasonable comparison if Americans had been shooting up British civilians to scare them, but we weren't. We weren't even big on shooting loyalists. The British were mad because we were fighting their soldiers in an unconventional way."

You know that the Jews were the first to terrorize innocent civilians, right? This was before Israel even existed. Hell, they assassinated a British official in order to terrorize the Brits out of there so they could take over the area.

[Edited on March 26, 2010 at 8:17 PM. Reason : ]

3/26/2010 8:17:20 PM

Quote :

"two thumbs up to obama on this one"

3/26/2010 8:34:06 PM

Quote :

"You know, this would be a reasonable comparison if Americans had been shooting up British civilians to scare them, but we weren't. We weren't even big on shooting loyalists. The British were mad because we were fighting their soldiers in an unconventional way. If the attacks of Hamas, et al. were targeted against the IDF, that'd be one thing. Hell, if they were even targeted against Israeli war production, maybe we could talk. I'll even go so far as to say that if the actions of Hamas could reasonably be said to reduce the will or ability of Israel to fight in any way maybe we'd be on the same page. But those actions fit none of those qualifications. It has been clear for a while now that rocket attacks and suicide bombings don't reduce the will of Israelis to fight. They only aggravate the situation. At least when we dropped the big one on Hiroshima somebody could reasonably think, "Well, fuck, maybe if we do this they'll finally throw in the towel.""

Different times man. Back then targeting officers and fighting in these unconventional ways was horrifying then as what we see in our life time with targeting civilians, suicide bombers, etc is horrifying to us.

They are also fighting a completely different army with advanced technology.

I mean hell, if Israel hits civilian targets by accident with precision laser guided smart bombs how can you hold Hamas to a higher standard with RPG's and (in comparison) dated rockets used by men with little to no formal military training?

Both sides are in the wrong and I support neither but Israel should learn to be more responsible and start behaving like a civilized nation.

3/26/2010 9:25:43 PM

Quote :

"I mean hell, if Israel hits civilian targets by accident with precision laser guided smart bombs how can you hold Hamas to a higher standard with RPG's and (in comparison) dated rockets used by men with little to no formal military training?"

because at least Israel isn't aiming at the fucking civilians IN THE FIRST PLACE. DURRRRRRRRR

3/26/2010 9:37:02 PM

With regards to rocket bombardment, the guys with the shitty equipment really can't aim them at all. It's more of a "point and hope it hits something important" strategy.

3/26/2010 9:38:48 PM

which makes it even shittier, then.

3/26/2010 9:39:30 PM

For the sake of getting aaronburro to stfu how about someone get them A-rabs some laser guided smart bombs so they have better luck at hitting military targets...k?

Quote :

" because at least Israel isn't aiming at the fucking civilians IN THE FIRST PLACE. DURRRRRRRRR"

really? what fairly tale news reports are you reading?

[Edited on March 26, 2010 at 10:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2010 10:50:35 PM

What an awful move on Obama's part.

3/27/2010 10:54:59 AM

A fucking flow chart? ahahahahaha.

3/27/2010 11:01:25 AM

Israel will always act unilaterally for its own interests. If our interest sometimes intersect with theirs, hooray. If they actively undermine us, they don't give a shit because they know we are their bitches.

It's a completely one-sided relationship that is not good for us. Becoming inextricably linked with a country who is not accountable to you is foolish.

3/27/2010 2:04:22 PM

Quote :

"really? what fairly tale news reports are you reading?"

Seriously. Israel's precision laser guided smart bombs must really be shitty to accidentally target civilians, humanitarian workers, hospitals, UN schools and children.

3/27/2010 3:38:15 PM

Quote :

"Hezbollah’s reaction to Israel’s plan to build 1,600 apartments in a Jewish neighborhood in East Jerusalem might help President Barack Obama understand something that has so far eluded him: the Syrian-Iranian-Hamas-Hezbollah resistance bloc will not allow him to appease it. “The scheme is yet another part of a Judaization campaign,” Hezbollah said in a statement quoted by the Tehran Times, “that targets the holy city of al-Quds [Jerusalem] and a provocation of Muslim feeling.” If Obama expected a little appreciation from Israel’s enemies for making the same point with more diplomatic finesse, he was mistaken. “The Zionist plan to construct hundreds of homes in al-Quds,” Hezbollah continued, “truly shows American cover to it.” So not only is Obama denied credit for standing up to Israel’s government, he is accused of doing precisely the opposite. "

http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/03/the-resistance-bloc-will-not-be-appeased.php

3/27/2010 4:53:17 PM

Quote :

"Seriously. Israel's precision laser guided smart bombs must really be shitty to accidentally target civilians, humanitarian workers, hospitals, UN schools and children."

It's caused the Israel effect. Inanimate objects often attack humans with absolutely no one controlling them or instructing them to do so. For example the bulldozer that somehow mercilessly ran over an innocent British protester, elsewhere this only happens when someone makes the conscious decision to kill someone with a bulldozer (being that it's quite a messy and slow process), but in Israel this happened an NO one was held responsible. Or the time they almost sunk an American Navy research ship. Somehow planes and torpedoes just started coming attacking the ship while no one was firing them, again, no one could be held responsible for all the people who died, because it happened by this magical Israel effect.

3/27/2010 5:50:43 PM

Quote :

"You know that the Jews were the first to terrorize innocent civilians, right?"

Yes, I know that. It's not germane to this particular part of the conversation, which is regarding whether terrorism is a moral equivalent to American tactics in the Revolutionary War.

Quote :

"Israel launched a preemptive attack during the 6 day war, I'm not sure what you're talking about. "

The Yom Kippur War.

Quote :

"The Arabs hadn't been in a war in quite a while, Egypt was the only one with even a reasonable air force, and that was not protected, Israel had a modern army, they vastly outmatched the Arab forces."

In which war? In 1948 Israel had no experience, no air force, etc. If after their first defeat the Arab countries decided not to modernize their militaries while still insisting on picking fights, that's their problem.

3/27/2010 9:54:12 PM

Quote :

"The Yom Kippur War."

Then you're surprised about the fourth in a series after they had shown military superiority in every previous conflict?

Quote :

"In which war? In 1948 Israel had no experience, no air force, etc. "

Any of them. In 1948 Israel had a substantial number of bombers and other large planes, the arabs only had a small number of fighter planes.

Quote :

"If after their first defeat the Arab countries decided not to modernize their militaries while still insisting on picking fights, that's their problem."

After all, might makes right.

3/27/2010 10:51:50 PM