i figure an engine's an engine, but i'd rather ask a stupid question on here and be mocked than not ask and find out later i did something stupid

so the 110cc scoot i got from thailand didn't come with a manual, so i'm guessing as to what oil i should use...i don't remember what i put in it the first time i filled it, but considering i have a nearly-empty 10w40 sitting here, i THINK that's what i used (the 50cc scoot uses that, anyway, so i probably assumed that was fine)

so, first question: does 10w40 sound fine for a 110cc scoot? i DO ride it in the winter, but right now it's summer and i'll likely put on enough miles to change it before winter comes...

second question - is it a bad idea to switch to synthetic now? it's got 4000 kilometers (about 2500 miles) on it, and i was under the impression that you're not supposed to switch...that said, i was checking the amount of oil required for my 50cc and found numerous threads of people talking about putting in regular oil to "seat" the engine first, and then switching to synthetic...of course, that's only after the first 250 miles or so, so maybe that's the difference

4/10/2010 5:29:17 PM

PRESSING QUESTIONS ITT

4/11/2010 8:33:06 AM

do they have some similar US model for which you can look up the owner's manual online?

it probably isn't gonna make a difference and i'd just stick with the 10W-40

4/11/2010 9:00:22 AM

the SH150i is pretty close...found a couple of how-to's online where they used 10w30

what about switching to synthetic now? bad idea?

4/11/2010 9:21:07 AM

i doubt it's worth it man

4/11/2010 11:01:43 AM

meh, i went ahead and swapped out the dino for 10w30 full synthetic...the new sh150i hondas (153cc with PGM-FI like mine) call for synthetic and the overwhelming majority of what i find online suggests that if you switch you simply can't go back to dino...also, i'll probably change out this oil after 800km (500 miles) to take care of any crud the synthetic removes (prevalent thought seems to be that synthetic will remove any build-up and to keep your engine healthy after the switch, you need to change the oil much sooner than your usual interval)

while i'm posting...does this spark plug look bad? i assume the fact that there's a bit of liquid oil on the thread is not good? i'm pretty sure this is the original spark plug (different scoot, not the 110cc), so the oil may be left over from when the engine blew a seal

4/11/2010 6:04:06 PM

I don't know about scooters, but in regular moto's with wet clutches, that 30w is no good. You have to go to 40w in automotive oil to rid it of the friction modifiers. Like I said, I know nothing of how that scooter is constructed, but if the transmission depends on oil without friction modifiers, you may want to change that or it will behave poorly. Just something that might be worth considering.

4/11/2010 8:10:37 PM

looks like a healthy spark plug to me

4/11/2010 8:18:20 PM

Quote :

"I don't know about scooters, but in regular moto's with wet clutches, that 30w is no good. You have to go to 40w in automotive oil to rid it of the friction modifiers. Like I said, I know nothing of how that scooter is constructed, but if the transmission depends on oil without friction modifiers, you may want to change that or it will behave poorly. Just something that might be worth considering."

i am very far from an expert...in fact, i may be completely wrong in this, but i THINK that almost all automatic scooters (and probably motos, if there are many that are automatic) utilize a variator and as such, a centrifugal dry clutch

honda calls theirs "v-matic," but it doesn't seem to be any different than the few non-honda CVTs i've seen

i would assume that the engine type matters more than the size...so when comparing, i took the closest US version, which is the SH150i...the manual of that scoot says to use 10w30 (as does the honda ruckus and honda metropolitan, but they're slightly different animals)...10w30 should give me the best fuel economy and performance, but perhaps i'll switch to 10w40 full syn when it gets a bit warmer...i know some folks use 5w50, but since we don't live in a place with 50% or more 100+° days, i think i'll opt for the better economy and performance option

Quote :

"looks like a healthy spark plug to me"

i thought so, too...but i posted on a scoot forum and a couple of the guys thought it looked oil fouled and that the white flecking on the electrode and insulator were from poor burning

i'm horrible at diagnosing spark plugs

thanks for the advice, y'all!

4/12/2010 8:17:10 AM

it's a goddamn scooter. what are you gonna do even if it does have "poor burning"?

http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/diagnosis.htm

[Edited on April 12, 2010 at 8:50 AM. Reason : it's fine dude. you're like a scooter hypochondriac.]

[Edited on April 12, 2010 at 8:50 AM. Reason : fed]

4/12/2010 8:47:00 AM

Quote :

"it's a goddamn scooter. what are you gonna do even if it does have "poor burning"?"

if it's something i can't help, nothing...i'm just trying to decide whether or not it's left over from before when it blew a seal or if it's recent

Quote :

"it's fine dude. you're like a scooter hypochondriac"

it may be...but i'm trying to sell it (the one with the plug from above) and i don't want to say something is fine if it's not...i won't lie to someone and i don't care for ignorance...so i ask lots of questions that make me seem like a hypochondriac

besides, i only seem like this because i've made so many threads about the previous scooter (which had a lot of problems all at once)...as for the new one, it's not like importing one is quick and easy, and since it's not really something available here, i'm trying to avoid problems in the first place

as i said before, i'd rather ask stupid questions and be mocked than to not ask and fuck something up unnecessarily

4/12/2010 8:55:46 AM

haha good point dude

4/12/2010 9:40:42 AM

typical...i couldn't just leave well enough alone

the scoot seemed fine after i switched to synthetic, but now it will randomly lose top-end power...i'll be at 1/2-3/4 throttle (not always trying to go faster, just cruising along) and it will suddenly feel like it's bogging down or something (though it doesn't necessarily slow down, i can just feel it)...i'll increase to full throttle and it'll just keep at its same speed

i THINK it usually happens on inclines, though it doesn't happen all the time, and the incline doesn't have to be a big hill...it also only seems to happen once the engine's warmed up

from what i've read online about switching from dino to syn, synthetic breaks up deposits formed by using dino oil and because of this, you're supposed to swap out the first syn sooner than you would usually change your oil...i've only got about 100 miles on the scoot since i switched and i was planning on changing at 500

any chance this is just what's happening because it's the first synthetic? think a change will take care of the problem? synthetic can work in pretty much every engine, right?

4/30/2010 7:47:03 AM

check the spark plug and clean the carb

I just hydrolocked a damn riding lawnmower with transmission fluid. ATF got all in the crankcase, messed up the spark plug, etc. Cleaned it all out and it runs like a champ. I doubt there's anything wrong. If you're really worried you can check compression on it. It takes a lot to mess up a small engine.

4/30/2010 8:29:45 AM

^ spark plug looks good and it's fuel-injected, not carbureted...oil level and color are fine

i did recently switch from 93 to 87 fuel, but i don't think that has anything to do with it (see ?topic=591782)

4/30/2010 8:36:21 AM

still not sure what's causing this...it's the same pattern:

1.) scoot starts up just fine
2.) get up to 60mph, no problem
3.) after about 30-45 seconds of cruising at top speed, stumbles a bit and bogs down
4.) top speed is about 40-45mph for another minute or so, then power kicks back in
5.) repeat 2-4

i've done 3 treatments of seafoam at 1-2oz for 0.95 gallons and i've tried both 87 and 93 octane, nothing seems to make a difference...i keep going back to this oil thing because its the ONLY thing that's changed recently, and it started almost immediately after i switched from dino to synthetic

also, it seems to only happen once the engine warms up...if it were a fuel issue, why wouldn't it be consistent, or at least sometimes happen from the moment i turn it on? is it possible that i used oil that was too thin and the engine is scaling itself back when it gets too hot? or is that a really retarded notion?

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 10:18 AM. Reason : .]

5/21/2010 10:14:58 AM

i had a 2-smoke outboard doing something similar one time. ended up being the needle valve getting hung due to having some dried up fuel/oil mix from sitting for a few months.

is the thing carbureted or what?

Quote :

"is it possible that i used oil that was too thin and the engine is scaling itself back when it gets too hot? or is that a really retarded notion?"

how would the engine monitor the oil viscosity?

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 10:42 AM. Reason : adfs]

5/21/2010 10:41:52 AM

I think the input to his hypothetical fun killer was temperature .

5/21/2010 10:59:00 AM

Could be a problem with the electric choke closing when it shouldn't. Maybe figure out if the default is open or closed when the solenoid has no power. If it is open with no power try disconnecting it and test it out.

5/21/2010 11:31:03 AM

Quote :

"is the thing carbureted or what?"

PGM-FI (programmed fuel injection), which i assume isn't any different than "regular" EFI...could be wrong, though

Quote :

"how would the engine monitor the oil viscosity?"

a measure of resistance? i don't know, i admit that it might be a silly thought

Quote :

"Could be a problem with the electric choke closing when it shouldn't. Maybe figure out if the default is open or closed when the solenoid has no power. If it is open with no power try disconnecting it and test it out."

i can't say for sure because i don't really know, but i was under the impression that fuel injection doesn't use a choke...right?

5/21/2010 1:18:38 PM

i don't believe this is related to the oil. it sounds like a fuel system issue to me.

5/21/2010 1:31:11 PM

maybe something is getting hot and expanding to open up and cause a loss of compression, then it makes less power and cools off until it closes up and back and forth

5/21/2010 1:43:47 PM

possibly...not sure what and how to check, though

5/21/2010 1:48:55 PM

look around the head gasket area for black carbon buildup like you'd see on the inside of a tailpipe

5/21/2010 1:50:16 PM

fuel filter?

5/21/2010 2:17:09 PM

If it calls for high octane and you run low octane the computer will retard ignition timing to try and save it from detonation. And seafoam will make it run hot in my experience. You need to drain the gas and put good 93 in it. Maybe even add octane booster. It's my understanding that our gas sucks compared to the rest of the world.

You need to find out if that thing has any sort of wet clutch, which as mentioned above are very sensitive to oil type. I don't know how to switch back from synthetic.

Replace the fuel filter and spark plug. Inspect or clean the air filter.

5/21/2010 2:36:26 PM

Quote :

"If it calls for high octane and you run low octane the computer will retard ignition timing to try and save it from detonation."

it calls for 91 RON, which is about 86 AKI (?topic=591782), so i would assume 87 is fine

Quote :

"And seafoam will make it run hot in my experience."

well, i've run two tanks without any seafoam in it so far

Quote :

"You need to find out if that thing has any sort of wet clutch, which as mentioned above are very sensitive to oil type."

it's definitely a dry clutch (i checked with honda)

Quote :

"I don't know how to switch back from synthetic."

i really can't think of why i would need to...i mean, if syn lubricates just as well as dino and doesn't have any significant differences, the same weight SHOULDN'T make any difference to the engine...in theory...right?

Quote :

"Replace the fuel filter and spark plug. Inspect or clean the air filter."

is it possible that it doesn't have a fuel filter, or does every gasoline engine have one? i can't seem to find one on the honda elite 110, which is EXACTLY the same engine...i'll check the spark plug, but it looked fine before (it's cheap, though, so why not?)...air filter looks fine, though there was a tiny bit of oil in the air box (and i do mean tiny)...i assume that's left over from when it was shipped here and had oil spilling out of the air box

FWIW, mileage has been unaffected by this...i still get almost exactly the same economy i've been getting (maybe even slightly better)

5/21/2010 2:50:13 PM

i realize y'all are probably out of ideas, but something i forgot to mention is how it acts when i let off the gas...when it's acting normally, it slows down normally, just coasting...but when it's having the bogging-down issue and i let off the throttle, it slows down much much more quickly, almost like i've applied the brake (even if i don't touch it)

5/21/2010 8:04:01 PM

you sure it's not brake related then?

also, fuel filter might not be obvious. i remember dirtbikes i used to have had fuel filters built into the petcock.

[Edited on May 21, 2010 at 9:07 PM. Reason : asdf]

5/21/2010 9:06:21 PM

Ricky, my scooter has been having the same issue for a while now. Off and on. I was thinking it was the carb, but who knows. I had also thought maybe it was the fuel regulator, but I don't know. Let me know what you think. If you figure out what's going on, I will likely see if it's my issue.

5/21/2010 9:22:32 PM

run 15-40 in it. 80-90 in the gear box and you will be fine! You can also plug it up and see whats going on with it for it not running right. I would say that plug is a bit rich it should be cardboard brown.

[Edited on May 24, 2010 at 11:52 PM. Reason : kkk]

5/24/2010 11:49:03 PM

^ i completely missed your post until i came in here to post a pic of the spark plug...i'll take your word as scripture

how's life, man?

anyway, here's a pic of the NGK CPR7EA-9 spark plug (i'm only putting the model for my reference ), which, let me tell you, was a real pain to get out...they certainly didn't design this thing for do-it-yourselfers...this isn't the same plug or scooter from above



i can look at any number of spark plug charts that show you what different issues look like, but heck if i can tell a difference...i mean, there's black soot around the rim, but none on the electrodes...the insulator has a bit of tan, which i would assume indicates normal wear on a relatively new plug (this is the original, BTW)...seems like the ground electrode is too white (ash?), but that's not very surprising considering i recently used some seafoam and i think additives will leave ash

damnation, i'm noobing all over myself here

5/25/2010 7:50:40 AM

i've just now had a chance to check the gap in the plug and it's at about 0.85

not having a manual, not being able to read thai, and not being able to speak with anyone at honda that knows the specs for the elite 110 (same engine as mine), google tells me that the VAST majority of 110cc engines need between 0.6 and 0.8 gap

ALL of them call for 0.6 on the low end, and some at 0.7 on the high, so i'm going to set this plug's gap to 0.65 and see what happens

considering how easy it is to move the electrode by accidentally tapping the plug once it's out, i'm not sure if that 0.85 is what it was at before or not, but are the symptoms i've described possibly caused by a gap that's too large? i realize the best way to figure this out is to test it, but i won't be able to test today because of the rain and i'll be gone through monday...i figured i'd ask here anyway

5/28/2010 8:01:12 AM

If the gap is too large, the spark is going to be inconsistent and you will get poor ignition. Explains the loss of power pretty nicely, so I think you may have figured it out. Try .75 and see how it is, and if it persists, go a little tighter to .70. 0.85 sounds pretty wide, but I've only done them on larger displacement stuff so I can't say that for sure. Does the plug manufacturer have an application guide on their website?

5/28/2010 9:43:30 AM

it's at 0.65 and while the idle is smoother, the low end power is a bit less (to be expected, i suppose)...but it's still having issues at the top end

bah

6/2/2010 2:54:00 PM

i think you mean .065

i mean, if it's .65 then that's certainly your problem

6/2/2010 3:34:47 PM

^ 0.65mm

6/2/2010 3:38:09 PM

fuck a metric system

[Edited on June 2, 2010 at 4:27 PM. Reason : boles would rape your ass for not specifying your units you pinko commie]

6/2/2010 4:25:36 PM

That is still WAY to wide! I never heard of any scooter motor even a FI runnin more then .050 I gap all the plugs at 35k's never had any probs.

6/2/2010 9:57:21 PM

^ well, 0.65mm is about 0.025 inches (nrr is right, i should have specified which units i was using)

low gear oil wouldn't cause this, would it? i realize the easiest thing to do is to drain it and refill, but i don't have any on hand and won't have time until this weekend, so i figured i'd ask first

6/3/2010 7:58:27 AM

i don't see how that could cause it. i'm pretty sure you have a fuel problem. focus on the fuel system.

6/3/2010 8:38:26 AM

Quote :

"i'm pretty sure you have a fuel problem. focus on the fuel system."

the problem is that i'm not sure what part of the fuel system to focus on...i am far from a mechanic and most of my experience is watching others work, or by taking it apart myself...i became familiar enough with a carbureted fuel system, but i have no experience whatsoever with fuel injection...i imagine the principles are the same, but i'm nervous about taking it apart since this isn't even a scooter available in the US...there's not a lot in the way of information for me to work with

once the elite 110 becomes more prevalent, i'll feel more comfortable, though, since they're essentially the same thing

6/3/2010 8:44:21 AM

okay, i'll ask about oil this one last time and then i'll let it drop (seriously)...could putting "energy conserving" oil in an engine that specifically says "no energy conserving oil" in the manual cause it to do this?

the manual for the elite 110 (again, same engine as mine) says:

Quote :

"Pro Honda HP4M, 10W-30. API classification SJ or higher. JASCO T 903 standard: MB. No energy conserving oil."

and the spark plug gap is 0.8-0.9mm (0.031-0.035in)

and, if it's even possible...what IS energy-conserving oil? from my quick googling, it seems that the EC stuff has additives that makes it more "slippery" than non-EC, which is important for anything with a wet clutch (most motorcycles, i would assume) because it can cause the clutch to slip due to the lesser friction

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html

now, my scoot doesn't have a wet clutch (honda v-matic CVT with centrifugal clutch)...but is it POSSIBLE that if i used an EC oil when it specifically says NOT to, that the engine could be getting too hot or encountering less friction than it's supposed to and slowing itself down? i realize that the best way to test this is just to drain the oil and start over with a 10w-30 non-EC, but i thought i'd put this out here first

also, the plug was originally set to 0.85mm, which we all thought was high, so i reduced it to 0.65mm...after i found out that the elite 110's manual calls for 0.8-0.9mm, i pulled out the plug to change it and noticed significantly more black carbon deposits, which is conducive to a plug gap that's too narrow (incomplete burning)...right? so i put it back up to 0.8mm and took it out for a ride...it misfired once or twice but hasn't done it since (then again, i'm wearing a helmet so perhaps i can't hear it anymore)

welcome to my TWW scooter diary

6/9/2010 8:00:16 AM

i highly doubt that engine would somehow cut itself back because it got too hot or it's magical friction sensors told it that the oil wasn't right

6/9/2010 3:55:38 PM

^ fair enough...but then why, if it doesn't have a wet clutch, why would they tell you not to use energy conserving oil?

6/9/2010 4:21:51 PM

Anything 40w or above does not have friction modifiers. Most likely an unrelated issue, but I'd switch to that if that's what it calls for. It's one less thing to wonder about.

6/9/2010 5:22:30 PM

^ what you say jives with what i found (or didn't find) in pep boys or advance auto (the two places nearest to me) which is that there isn't ANY 10w-30 full syn that ISN'T energy conserving...which in turn means that even though i don't have the bottle to verify, there's little doubt in my mind that i put in EC oil

i'm going to swap out the oil on my lunch break with some 10w-40 full syn that doesn't have EC on the API label and (obviously) hope that fixes this problem i'm having...based on what all of you have said, and what's been told to me on various other forums, i can't see how it would make a difference, but i might as well do it...what am i out? $8?

bah, i'm ready for this to fixed

[Edited on June 10, 2010 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

6/10/2010 11:03:53 AM

not gonna do a damn thing

figure out why it isn't getting fuel or stop wasting your time

6/10/2010 3:54:03 PM

whether it makes sense or not, it didn't bog down AT ALL today, i swear

if i weren't afraid of jinxing it, i'd say that it ALWAYS bogs down during my normal riding schedule, but i can't swear to that fact...all i know is that after the change today, it didn't happen

i'll go on an extended ride tomorrow and give it a real test, though, before i say it really did something

*shrug*

6/10/2010 4:50:25 PM

okay, took it on a longer ride today and it never even hiccuped...my acceleration from a dead stop seems a bit less than usual, but not so much that i can say for sure

the original spark plug, set to something between 0.8-0.85mm, is in there...running same 87 gasoline...nothing else has changed except it's now running 10w-40 full syn non-EC oil instead of 10w-30 full syn EC oil

i very much doubt it's a coincidence that it started almost immediately after i put in EC oil and stopped immediately after i switched out

so, if the EC oil WAS the culprit, any thoughts as to how and why that would cause it to lose top end power and bog down after its warmed up? since EC oil is "slicker" than non-EC, is it silly to think that it slows itself down if it senses the engine running too fast or revving up too high?

again, not saying this did it (i'll give it another couple of hundred miles to be sure), but it seems too coincidental NOT to be it

*shrug*

6/11/2010 11:31:02 AM