I was thinking today about places and periods in which a government was highly effective and well regarded by its population

so post here when a government (local, state, national et al) is effective, responsive, courageous and/or respected.

6/1/2010 7:03:53 PM

I can think of examples of the past, but good luck finding one in today's world

6/1/2010 7:09:25 PM

Phantom Menace

6/1/2010 7:18:25 PM

-The Conch Republic, Key West, Fl.

6/1/2010 7:26:25 PM

If we're going to take this seriously, I'm going to say Switzerland.



If we're going the TWW route:

6/1/2010 7:30:50 PM

North Carolina municipalities do extremely well getting AAA bond ratings which saves tax payers on interest. I may add more to this thread as I see it happen, but I collected a few posts from other threads in chit chat & the soap box that touch on the issue of government effectiveness.

I'll start off by admitting that alot of things about government are less than ideal, especially during a weak economy, but I think there are some points to be made in defense of government. I'd also point out the government agencies can have the multiple and opposing stakeholders problem.

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Quote :

"Most towns that do free downtown wifi services pass a cost-benefit analysis and can do it cheaper than priv orgs to provide the same service. And a lot of what government does is non-excludable so its service effectiveness isn't anywhere near the same realm as private industry profits and thus the frame of references many people who don't know much about government is apples to oranges. The army seems to run a pretty tight ship. NCSU is one of my favorite public universities. And I gotta say, I'm a fan of Pell Grants. Public libraries have served us well for a long time, and public cybraries are starting to come into their own these days too. On the whole we're a lot healthier thanks to having the FDA do their job effectively rather aiming for profit. North Carolina has consistently better roads because they are run by a state agency that ensures more even roads across the state than most states. Places like Georgia have municipalities in charge of roads, and a lot of contracting out, and rural areas don't come close to the quality that a state government agency does in delivering decent roads across the state. We also depend on a state government agency to do most of education funding, which while imperfect gives us decent schools across the state as compared to places like texas that depend on municipality funding and private schools so you have some really rich schools, and some really poor schools that put even the worst school in Goldsboro to shame. The LGC has on the whole made our state relatively financially stronger and more stable because of its existence. I'm sure we get more CAFR's than most. On the other hand, the more we outsource prisons to private companies, the more we build the corporation lobbying arm for stricter 3 strikes you're out, and anti-marijuana laws. The private sector is right in so many situations and is the engine of our economy. But some services benefit from regulation (heck the stock market could have benefited from more a few years ago is probably the most obvious example to prevent market failure)"

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http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/cms/2010/04/20/five-things-to-remember-during-the-budget-debate/

Quote :

" Here are a few things to remember as the budget debate begins to help navigate your way through all the distortions. 1) North Carolina's current budget woes have not been caused by out of control state spending. The N.C. Budget & Tax Center finds that state government spending per person is now lower that it has been in 13 years. And that is after last session's tax increase passed to keep budget cuts to merely devastating levels. 2) North Carolina is not a high tax state. A conservative columnist recently concluded that overall state and local taxes are about average. The right-wing Tax Foundation says the state ranks 28th in state and local taxes per capita. Even the Foundation's deeply flawed "Tax Freedom Day" analysis found North Carolina slightly better than the national average, ahead of neighboring states like Georgia and Virginia. 3) North Carolina business taxes are among the lowest in the country. Anti-government forces like to cherry pick individual tax rates to claim that state taxes on business are too high and responsible for driving jobs out of the state. It is simply not true. 4) North Carolinians are not buried in public debt. The folks on the Right want you to believe that state lawmakers have over borrowed to pay for infrastructure projects at universities and community colleges, but that is simply not true either. The conservative Tax Foundation says North Carolina ranks 40th in the country in per capita state debt. 5) Last year's budget cuts inflicted damage on public education and human services that will take a decade to repair. The Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education recently voted to lay off 600 teachers and that number may rise to 1,000. Education Week ranks North Carolina 11th of the 12 Southeastern states in spending for public education."

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/04/nc-voters-think-they-have-higher-taxes.html

Quote :

"NC voters think they have higher taxes Tuesday, April 20, 2010 Every week it seems there's a new study or statistic that some interest group or other can use to claim that North Carolina does or does not have an unusually high tax burden. When it comes to the perceptions of voters though it's no contest- North Carolinians think they pay higher taxes than people in other states. 59% of voters in the state feel that way compared to 26% who think North Carolina's taxes are about the same as other places and 10% who feel that the state has lower taxes. It's a sentiment that there's bipartisan consensus on- 70% of Republicans, 56% of independents, and 52% of Democrats think that residents of the state pay more than average. So do these numbers spell big trouble for Democrats as they try to keep control of the General Assembly this fall? I doubt it. Only 3% of voters in the state say taxes are the most important issue to them. "

We have a constitutional requirement to balance to budget, and we have LGC which has made our state a model for many other states around the country. Governments are never run perfectly, but NC isn't actually one of the bad ones.

We are in a weak economy. We have to cut services or increase tax revenue (increase taxes, increase tax collection rate, or find new revenue sources to spread the pain)

We have a thread with arguing against the firing of people who work for the school system. [also against combining the undergrad zoology & animal sci programs]

We've had dozens of threads it feels like against paying more taxes

We've had a thread recently about how evil it is for government to publish the names of people who aren't paying their taxes (a common mechanism for municipalities to increase the collect rate rather than raising taxes over all).

And now we've had a thread saying don't try to find new revenue sources, even if that revenue source is mostly luxury items that wont affect hurt vulnerable populations like the poor & the elderly who don't do lots of online purchases of DVDs.

As a unit, TWW has opposed decreased spending, increased taxes, increased tax collection rates, and new tax revenue sources. Individually we all have our own positions, but we have elected officials that have to serve units that are much larger and less educated on average than TWW.

I still oppose this measure mostly because of the potential retroactive aspect, but on the whole NC is run pretty well, and a lot of the difficulties are because the public as a whole demands impossibilities, and we need more constructive and fine tuned criticisms of how government works than "fuck the DOR" whenever they try to confront reality.
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On the federal level the president advocates for science in our schools, he support stem cell research, the president ordered a return to the Army Field Manual rather than enhanced torture techniques, he supports repealing DADT this year, the president signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, he signed a bill to expand veteran benefits, he signed kids tobacco legislation, he signed a major land protection act, and we finally have a time-table (a word fiercely opposed by the last administration) for getting out of Iraq. I was also a fan of the recent presidential directive that results in allowing gay couples to have hospital visitation visitation rights.

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Quote :

"If we did away with government contracting out to non-profits (& dropped those funding priorities) we'd wipe out many homeless shelters, soup kitchens, housing programs, job training & retraining programs, job placement programs, drug abuse programs, senior care, senior centers, domestic abuse programs, rape counseling, after school programs for at risk teens, mental health programs, and many other programs in one fell swoop. Given the externalities associated with many of these programs, I'd be hard pressed to say that gutting them would for sure have an end result that is better for the tax payer."

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Okay, super post over. After this post I'll try to take this thread more in the spirit that it was intended, basically, post here when government does something right. But I wanted to give a serious defense of the things that I think government does well already.

6/1/2010 7:57:50 PM

Not the US

6/1/2010 7:57:50 PM

Quote :

"I can think of examples of the past, but good luck finding one in today's world"

You'd have a tougher time than you'd think trying to find ones who didn't commit crimes considered unspeakable in todays world.

That being said, I'll choose the Ottomans. They managed to stave of muslim extremism and zionism through very careful political tactics. Many hsitorians today would cite the fall of the Ottoman empire for most of the ills we have faced in recent history. From the rise in power of the Nazis to the surge in power of the Soviet empire all the way over to the turmoil in Israel and the middle east and the rise in Islamofacism.

6/1/2010 8:01:39 PM

Quote :

"The right-wing Tax Foundation says the state ranks 28th in state and local taxes per capita. Even the Foundation's deeply flawed "Tax Freedom Day" analysis found North Carolina slightly better than the national average, ahead of neighboring states like Georgia and Virginia."

Currently sales tax in Charlotte is 9.25%, this is rediculous.

Quote :

"now we've had a thread saying don't try to find new revenue sources, even if that revenue source is mostly luxury items that wont affect hurt vulnerable populations like the poor & the elderly who don't do lots of online purchases of DVDs. "

No No No.

Perhaps if sales tax was not 9.25% their would be no incentive for people to purchase DVD's online.

Quote :

"we have elected officials that have to serve units that are much larger and less educated on average than TWW."

Bev Purdue was not "elected," she rode the obama wave all the way to Raleigh.

6/1/2010 8:32:24 PM

yeah, no, wait, she was elected.

6/1/2010 10:04:00 PM

by "not elected," he means "she didn't gain the majority vote"

6/1/2010 10:05:23 PM

Quote :

"I was thinking today about places and periods in which a government was highly effective and well regarded by its population so post here when a government (local, state, national et al) is effective, responsive, courageous and/or respected."

Why such a loaded question? There are vastly different types of governance, so why measure them all with effectiveness, responsiveness, courage and/or respect? Some forms of governance are more concerned with justice and liberty of the means and not the effectiveness of the ends. How do we judge those according to you?

6/2/2010 4:02:02 AM

i just listed those few criteria as examples. it was a loaded question intentionally, as i'm interested in more than just the modern american democratic government as well. if 3rd century southern indian tribal government did a kickass job, tell me about it. what's important to one people can certainly be different than another people so i wanted to keep it open-ended. maybe the closest you can get to measuring good governance is how well it is received by the people it serves, so i guess start there

6/2/2010 7:38:54 AM

The United States of America from 2000 to 2008.

6/2/2010 8:30:05 AM

How do we measure effictive governance?

General Happiness of the Population (2005)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_hap_lev_ver_hap-lifestyle-happiness-level-very-happy

Ecological Footprint/Sustainability (2006)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ecological_footprint

Gross Domestic Product Per Capita (2009)
http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/gdp_per_capita_2009_0.html

Perception of corruption (2005)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-government-corruption

6/2/2010 9:16:30 AM

Quote :

"yeah, no, wait, she was elected. "

I am guessing you support the Lt. Governor (now governor) of a defunct corrupt democrat coalition that includes an ex-governor who may be going to jail and a chancellor of NCSU who was given the boot, just because Bevvy has a "D" next to her name.

This is contrary to a mayor who led Charlotte during 14 years of extraordinary growth and prosperity. I think this state would have been in much better shape had we elected Pat.

6/2/2010 10:47:44 AM

I think this state would have been in much better shape had we elected Pat

=/=

Bev wasn't elected

6/2/2010 12:20:20 PM

she was elected

(and I voted for the other guy)

6/2/2010 12:23:08 PM

Quote :

"I am guessing you support the Lt. Governor (now governor) of a defunct corrupt democrat coalition that includes an ex-governor who may be going to jail and a chancellor of NCSU who was given the boot, just because Bevvy has a "D" next to her name."

not surprisigly, you're wrong.

Hell I don't even live in NC anymore.

6/2/2010 3:45:18 PM

Quote :

"Some forms of governance are more concerned with justice and liberty of the means and not the effectiveness of the ends."

It would be just the same to judge them on how religious they are, why grade based on a memeplex?

6/2/2010 5:37:46 PM

well you got any suggestions on how to grade them then?

6/2/2010 5:50:50 PM

sure, OP

6/2/2010 11:40:14 PM

Effectiveness is a hard thing to gauge, but I'm sure that the most well regarded governments were the ones closest to home. The more local a government is, the more in line it is with most people's values. That's not to say that "most people's" values are necessarily the best values. It's just that when you have a single body making laws for a huge area, there's going to be a lot of criticism launched.

6/3/2010 1:06:34 AM

Quote :

"The more local a government is, the more in line it is with most people's values"

I agree with this.
The smaller, more local, and more decentralized a government is, the better.
Effective limited government stays limited.
Effective responsiveness of limited government stays limited and appropriate.
Courage is for people, not governments.
People who choose to live in (or stay living in) a limited government system respect its staying limited.


Effectiveness of a government is not simply quantitative, as in which societies have governments that "do more" or are healthier/safer.

[Edited on June 3, 2010 at 8:06 AM. Reason : ]

6/3/2010 8:00:45 AM

Congress should meet like two or three times a year and that's it.

6/3/2010 9:57:32 AM