If Ozzie Smith is in cooperstown, Vizquel better get in. A better all around player and just as good if not better with the glove. Just no flips in the infield

7/7/2010 2:05:41 AM

how are you even qualified to make that assessment?

or is this a troll?

7/7/2010 2:13:49 AM

Vizquel is probably slightly more deserving that Oz was, but two wrongs don't make a right

What a random fucking thread

7/7/2010 6:20:40 AM

he probably deserves a HOF nod more than his own thread

7/7/2010 8:37:41 AM

There is no doubt that Omar should be in the Hall

7/7/2010 10:04:34 AM

11 Gold Gloves including 9 in a row

.985 career fielding % for a shortstop (highest of all time)

2nd to Jeter in all time hits by a shortstop

Will be wearing an Indians hat into the Hall

7/7/2010 10:15:43 AM

83 OPS+

7/7/2010 10:17:29 AM

OPS+ is a number invented by the media to keep skinny Venezuelan shortstops out of the Hall


just like RPI was invented to keep Sid out of the NCAAs

7/7/2010 10:30:52 AM

lol @ OPS+

7/7/2010 10:38:20 AM

Wait. Are you serious?

Someone posted fielding percentage as a relevant statistic and you are making fun of OPS+?

Are you Joe Morgan?

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 10:39 AM. Reason : hit it, Ernie]

7/7/2010 10:39:32 AM

Quote :

"just like RPI was invented to keep Sid out of the NCAAs"

i chuckled

7/7/2010 10:42:11 AM

Quote :

"Wait. Are you serious? Someone posted fielding percentage as a relevant statistic and you are making fun of OPS+? Are you Joe Morgan?"

7/7/2010 1:03:24 PM

Quote :

"he probably deserves a HOF nod more than his own thread"

this is awesome

7/7/2010 1:05:56 PM

for shortstops, number of gold gloves and fielding % are absolutely relevant for HOF nomination. power number are relevant too, but i think a fantastic defensive shortstop has a good argument for HOF regardless of how many homeruns and doubles they hit. obviously, the same can't be said for outfielders and first basemen...

7/7/2010 1:52:43 PM

Forget home runs and doubles...he wasn't league average at singles or getting on base in general

Lifetime .262/.337/.328

Thats downright Lemke-ish

7/7/2010 1:59:40 PM

his big thing is lack of a) ROY b) MVP c) rings

7/7/2010 2:14:39 PM

Really, Rookie of the Year?

Let's use the first 1/20th of his career as a good indicator for his Hall candidacy

Besides, baseball has the most convoluted rules for actually being a rookie in all of sports

7/7/2010 2:18:06 PM

his big thing is lack of a) ROY b) MVP c) rings d) big thing

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 2:19 PM. Reason : ]

7/7/2010 2:18:50 PM

i'm just sayin'.....

give him one out of those 3 and his chances skyrocket

7/7/2010 2:20:38 PM

Yeah, good point

Eric Hinske and Dontrelle Willis are locks for Cooperstown

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 2:24 PM. Reason : x]

7/7/2010 2:24:05 PM

if they're productive until the age of 43, then yes, yes they are!

7/7/2010 2:34:43 PM

Quote :

"number of gold gloves and fielding % are absolutely relevant for HOF nomination."

you're right that they're relevant, but that's only because people who follow archaic statistics and benchmarks place a retarded amount of value on those things when they're terrible methods of judging a player's defensive contributions.

Quote :

"Forget home runs and doubles...he wasn't league average at singles or getting on base in general Lifetime .262/.337/.328"

an OBP of .330 is generally considered league average

7/7/2010 2:40:36 PM

The thing about people bringing up stupid shit like ROY awards and fielding percentage is that those are probably better indicators for induction than OPS+, only because of the old-timers that are doing the voting.

Quote :

"if they're productive until the age of 43, then yes, yes they are!"

Vizquel is productive? If Gordy Becks weren't absolutely shitting the bed, Vizquel would easily be the least valuable White Sox offensive player by any metric. His defense is maybe average for his position these days.

^ .330 is LA in 2010, it wasn't for the majority of his career.

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 3:26 PM. Reason : Boom. Roasted.]

7/7/2010 3:09:21 PM

this was just a random thought that i had before bed after watching ESPN.

7/7/2010 3:10:41 PM

Quote :

"^ .330 is LA in 2010, it wasn't for the majority of his career."

i'm going by .330 as an overall benchmark, similar to how .260-.265 would be considered an average hitter, or .300 would be considered outstanding. i read .330 was an average OBP in baseball between the numbers, and i dare not argue anything regarding statistics against those people.

7/7/2010 4:04:31 PM

It's a silly thing to argue over

If .330 is league average, 7 points over doesn't get you in

Especially when you've never won anything other than a bunch of gold gloves, have never finished in the top 15 for MVP voting, are well below league average in almost every stat that counts, have never won it all, have never been the best player on your own team, have never been the best player at your position, and have never led your league in any stat other than sacrifice hits.

Oz got in because, despite his mostly similar (maybe better) resume, he was an immensely more popular player.

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 4:17 PM. Reason : well below HOF standard is what I meant]

7/7/2010 4:14:34 PM

To be fair, he did finish 2nd to Dawson in '87

But everything else is true

7/7/2010 4:18:23 PM

I know Oz did, I was talking about Vizquel

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 4:20 PM. Reason : I guess I thought that career line was Vizquel's]

7/7/2010 4:19:18 PM

Quote :

"this was just a random thought that i had before bed after watching ESPN."

right, and you based the statement that vizquel is just as good as, if not better than, smith defensively off of watching both players in their prime and using evidence other than fielding percentage? doubtful. there really are no perfect defensive metrics, but some are certainly far, far better than others. the problem is that some of the newer defensive stats can't be used to judge a player's value from several years back, so we aren't able to look at ozzie's defense the same way that we can with derek jeter's.

Quote :

"It's a silly thing to argue over If .330 is league average, 7 points over doesn't get you in"

i was just pointing out the fact that his OBP is actually slightly above what's considered average performance after Slave Famous said he was below average at getting on base for his whole career

7/7/2010 4:22:43 PM

It might as well be

Or Walt Weiss

They're all interchangeable

7/7/2010 4:24:22 PM

Rookie of the Year Walt Weiss

Decent chance he'll be wearing a Braves hat on his plaque

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason : He's only out now because of his roid connections]

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason : He got one vote in 06 lol]

7/7/2010 4:29:46 PM

I see he was the precursor to Omar Infante back in '98

With a .312, 0 HR, 18 RBI first half propelling him to a much deserved all star berth

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 4:33 PM. Reason : x]

7/7/2010 4:33:19 PM

There were no great NL SS in the late 90s (Larkin?)

Weiss was the AS starter that year

7/7/2010 4:38:07 PM

They must have been the only position not juicing

7/7/2010 4:40:33 PM

rey ordonez was a pretty good defensive NL SS. could't hit for dick though.

7/7/2010 4:43:45 PM

More great shortstops:

Rafael Belliard, Yunel Escobar's idol

His HR log: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/event_hr.cgi?n1=bellira01&t=b

[Edited on July 7, 2010 at 4:44 PM. Reason : ^ Those are HOF credentials ITT]

7/7/2010 4:44:20 PM