8,939 of the 9,176 voted. I respect that. A lot.

11/3/2010 12:38:45 AM

...how did you know how many Libertarians there were?

11/3/2010 12:42:49 AM

Early voting results, updated Nov 2, so its the most current number around:
ftp://www.app.sboe.state.nc.us/ENRS/absentee11xx02xx2010_Stats.pdf

Quote :

"Registered Lib: 9,176"

11/3/2010 12:56:01 AM

Quote :

"Kudos to the Libertarians"

Yeah, well, why don't you join us?

Don't you believe in a "mosaic" America?....
...where everyone gets along as best as possible, and no one forces personal and private beliefs onto others?

Libertarianism is, by far, the best system to protect individual rights, minority groups, and multiculturalism in general.


[Edited on November 3, 2010 at 10:42 AM. Reason : ]

11/3/2010 10:41:54 AM

I'm a registered libertarian.

However, just like the elephants and jackasses, I agree with a subset of their stances on issues, and generally perceive libertarians to be tinfoil hat wearing neckbeards.

That said, I registered as a libertarian just to show support for a third party, and voted for anyone who wasn't the incumbent.

THATS RIGHT MAHFAHS I VOTED FOR CHANGE.

11/3/2010 10:45:11 AM

Quote :

"Don't you believe in a "mosaic" America?"

No I believe my way is the right way and that everyone else can fuck off. Like the rest of the soap box.

11/3/2010 10:51:36 AM

Quote :

"Libertarianism is, by far, the best system to protect individual rights, minority groups, and multiculturalism in general."

I couldn't help but lol when i read this statement and this was all i could think of...

11/3/2010 11:02:17 AM

can someone give me a rundown of libertarian or libertarian minded candidates that were elected or are actually serving in congress.

They don't have to be big L libertarians, just more libertarian than the average Republican.

so far Ill include Ron Paul and Rand Paul

11/3/2010 11:04:53 AM

i prefer the Libertarian Unicorn Party. it's more realistic.

11/3/2010 11:48:42 AM

wait... Rand Paul is a libertarian??


He proudly opposes abortion even in the cases of rape and incest. He opposes same-sex marriage He opposes medical marijuana.


i guess you must mean the fundamentalist teabagger libertarians.

[Edited on November 3, 2010 at 11:57 AM. Reason : ]

11/3/2010 11:57:16 AM

well yeah you might be right. Thats what I want to take a long look at him and any others that are running similar campaigns.



It might not be evident from some of my post but the truth is I actually support SOME libertarian ideas and have voted as such in the past.

Over the past few years I've gotten more skeptical. I personally think that some running as "libertarian-minded" are just using it as a front for the same old corporatism we have come to expect from normal politicians. So I really want to watch these candidates to see how they vote and how legit they are.

11/3/2010 12:03:52 PM

Quote :

"Libertarianism is, by far, the best system to protect individual rights, minority groups, and multiculturalism in general."

Quote :

"I couldn't help but lol when i read this statement"

Well, that just shows your ignorance, I guess.
It is clear that the left and right want to abolish each other. Only libertarianism allows everyone to have their abortions, guns, drugs, creationist textbooks, gay marriages, entire paychecks, clean ecosystems, businesses, rights to immigrate/emigrate, religious freedoms, pornography, junk food etc.

The left and the right contribute to a perpetual culture war.
Libertarianism contributes to cultural freedom.

It really is that simple.

(laugh all you want, and post other trolling bullshit, but you simply can't refute the fact that libertarianism is, by far, the best system to protect individual rights, minority groups, and multiculturalism in general. Go ahead and try.)

Quote :

"....big L libertarians, just more libertarian than the average Republican. so far Ill include Ron Paul and Rand Paul"

Liberals want everyone to believe that libertarianism has something to do with the Republican Party. It doesn't.
Ron Paul used to be a libertarian, but he and Rand are Republicans. Libertarian-leaning Republicans, but 100% Republicans.

Quote :

"I personally think that some running as "libertarian-minded" are just using it as a front for the same old corporatism we have come to expect from normal politicians."

Yes.
Thank you for not being fooled.
Libertarians are not Republicans, social conservatives, religious fundamentalists, corporatists, etc.

11/3/2010 12:12:13 PM

Quote :

"Libertarians are not Republicans, social conservatives, religious fundamentalists, corporatists, etc. "

but it seems like thats exactly the type of people that the "libertarian-minded" tea party and even some of the "libertarian-minded" people on this board wanted or had elected. Aren't socially conservative initiatives just as much of an overreach of government as raising taxes? Its like trading in the social freedom of some so that you can allegedly gain some economic freedom for yourself.

anyway, time will tell, which is why I wanted to actually see how some of these folks ended up voting and what types of bills they write.

11/3/2010 1:00:46 PM

Quote :

"Well, that just shows your ignorance, I guess. "

I think you missed the point. I understand what you feel libertarianism is. That's fine, you can have an opinion.

I just find it funny the way that you speak in absolutes. You denounce other political ideologies and essentially state that "yours is the one true ideology" - just like the south park episode.
Do you not see how elitist you are coming off in your posts? Maybe you do and just don't care?

Quote :

"{you}where everyone gets along as best as possible, and no one forces personal and private beliefs onto others {you}Libertarianism is, by far, the best system to protect individual rights, minority groups, and multiculturalism in general {me}I couldn't help but lol when i read this statement {you}Well, that just shows your ignorance "

This is exactly what's funny
- you said that no one forces personal & private beliefs onto others
- then you state that your beliefs are the best
- I mock you because of an elitist statement
- you call me ignorant because I don't agree with your beliefs.

I think you just trolled yourself

11/3/2010 1:01:47 PM

Quote :

"He proudly opposes abortion even in the cases of rape and incest. He opposes same-sex marriage He opposes medical marijuana. i guess you must mean the fundamentalist teabagger libertarians."

Quote :

"Over the past few years I've gotten more skeptical. I personally think that some running as "libertarian-minded" are just using it as a front for the same old corporatism we have come to expect from normal politicians. So I really want to watch these candidates to see how they vote and how legit they are."

There's a disconnect between politics and ideology. A openly Rothbardian libertarian cannot get elected to office in the United States. Our culture has not advanced to that point. I think if you were to talk to Ron Paul or B.J. Lawson completely off the record, they would probably not support things like drug prohibition. There really is no room for those kinds of laws if you believe in freedom. None at all. But you can't say that.

Unfortunately, getting elected in this country means two things: getting the support of your party, and getting the support of the general voting public. You can't be for drug legalization, open borders, and all that. In some states, you can't even be non-interventionist and pro-choice and get into office. It's a numbers game, more than anything else. We need widespread education, and I don't mean the kind being distributed in public schools and universities. I mean the kind that comes from discussing and debating the issues with every day people.

11/3/2010 1:17:15 PM

^^
Thanks for playing.

The part you're missing is that I'm talking about "private and personal" non-universal views.

Quote :

"I just find it funny the way that you speak in absolutes. You denounce other political ideologies and essentially state that "yours is the one true ideology" - just like the south park episode. Do you not see how elitist you are coming off in your posts? Maybe you do and just don't care?"

Libertarianism isn't like other political ideologies. There could be thousands of various political ideologies all differing in which private and personal views they advocate should be pushed onto everyone. Think of these as numbers like 6, 17, 249, etc. or colors like red, blue or purple. Libertarianism isn't at all the same. It is unique in that it sets itself apart from all the other political ideologies that advocate pushing private and personal views onto everyone. Think of it as the number 1, or the color of white light. It is pure.

I do see how, with a lack of understanding of what makes libertarianism unique and completely different from other political ideologies, one might hear praise for it while also hearing condemnation of typical political ideologies, and conclude that such praise essentially and hypocritically states that "it is the one true ideology". But that's not the case. It's the one most basic and pure ideology, and the one that maximizes fairness, justice, and cultural freedom. It's not really a political party in the normal sense -- it's like an unparty.

Quote :

"This is exactly what's funny - you said that no one forces personal & private beliefs onto others - then you state that your beliefs are the best - I mock you because of an elitist statement - you call me ignorant because I don't agree with your beliefs."

Do you see your mistake here?
Do you not understand what personal, private, non-universal beliefs are? or how they apply here?

I mean, sure. Some level of belief is forced onto others in any government. Right?
I just don't see the "legalize murder" rallies. Why is that?
I also don't see the "legalize theft" rallies. Where are they?

Defense of person, property and liberty is most basic, and it should end there.
These are universal* beliefs. (*practically. This is not philosophy class.)
Banning sugary foods? not a universal belief.
Banning homosexuality? not a universal belief.

If all we allow is the most basic set of beliefs for the role government, then people are the most free to live whatever culture they want, that doesn't affect other's right to the same.

It's not hard to grasp this concept.

Libertarianism is not simply some other flavor of partisanism.

11/3/2010 1:35:40 PM

Sounds exactly like:

Quote :

"No I believe my way is the right way and that everyone else can fuck off. Like the rest of the soap box."

And your counter to this is, But my way is REAAAALLY right.

11/3/2010 1:50:01 PM

^
Not exactly.
The difference being that with libertarianism, no personal and private beliefs are forced onto everyone.
Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Republican means forcing abortion bans, homosexuality bans, and creationism onto everyone.
Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Democrat means forcing gun bans, mandatory health insurance, and welfare taxes onto everyone.
Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Libertarian means forcing murder bans, theft bans, and cultural freedom onto everyone.

Yeah, libertarians are so horrible...


If Democrats are chicken noodle soup,
and Republicans are steak with mashed potatoes,
and Greens are tofu with sprouts,
....then Libertarians are the grocery/farm
Get it?

Quote :

"It's not hard to grasp this concept. Libertarianism is not simply some other flavor of partisanism."

11/3/2010 2:01:21 PM

Libertarian =/= Tea Party

11/3/2010 2:05:16 PM

Quote :

"That said, I registered as a libertarian just to show support for a third party, and voted for anyone who wasn't the incumbent. "

You voted for Ellmers? Do you realize how dumb she is?

11/3/2010 2:12:42 PM

Quote :

"Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Libertarian means forcing murder bans, theft bans, and cultural freedom onto everyone."

wat

[Edited on November 3, 2010 at 2:33 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2010 2:31:50 PM

^
before your edit, you said something like, "This is why nobody takes libertarians seriously."
I'm not sure why...

Look at the quote in context. What do you not understand?

Quote :

"...with libertarianism, no personal and private beliefs are forced onto everyone. Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Republican means forcing abortion bans, homosexuality bans, and creationism onto everyone. Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Democrat means forcing gun bans, mandatory health insurance, and welfare taxes onto everyone. Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Libertarian means forcing murder bans, theft bans, and cultural freedom onto everyone."

11/3/2010 2:51:17 PM

it's not "the one true ideology"
it is "the one most basic and pure ideology"


We get it (or at least I do) - You are still trying to give me a lesson on what being a libertarian means to you. What I am trying to point out to you is the fallacy of some of your statements.

While intentions are good - puting anything on a pedestal like that is exactly what leads to extremism as an ideology grows. You keep repeating that your's is the only way - with the caveat of "practicality" of course otherwise there would be no theft/murder/etc.

But when you get into what's practical - you are moving back towards personal private beliefs.

I don't have a problem with what you believe - ideally it makes sense.
What I do have a problem with, is calling it "the best system" or "the one anything"

"best" is not a universal concept - it is personal and private.
thus my opinion that you have trolled yourself.

11/3/2010 2:55:54 PM

I'm a Libertarian, and I agree with Norin Radd here.


Indy, you are embarrassing yourself at this point.

11/3/2010 3:10:44 PM

^
^^
Fail

That's only if I force the [libertarian] belief on others. I want others to choose it on their own.

Forcing cultural freedom is still forcing something -- I accept that.
Some Democrats may not want cultural freedom, because they may oppose gun culture and want to ban it.
Some Republicans may not want cultural freedom, because they may oppose gay culture and want to ban it.
If libertarians "have their way", then people wouldn't be engaging in culture war/dominance.
Oh well for them.

(I know I'm right. I don't need your support.)

11/3/2010 3:42:44 PM

I think they imagine a system where we "force everyone to be free. " Freedom comes by virtue of our humanity though, not because anyone permits it. It's like I said to Kris in another thread: if you want to make a shitty little socialized community, go for it. It's not my place to tell you not to. The problem comes about when you say to everyone living in this country: "participate in this system. In fact, we're going to force you to." That's not freedom by any definition. If you believe in freedom - that is, the ability to do what you want as long as you don't infringe upon someone else's rights - then you're a libertarian. All it is is the absence of coercion. That's why it is, undoubtedly, better than any other ideology. You can be a libertarian and whatever other party affiliation/ideology you want, as long as you acknowledge that people should be able to opt out.

[Edited on November 3, 2010 at 4:06 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2010 4:05:37 PM

How am I gonna opt-out of the US?

11/3/2010 4:13:19 PM

Quote :

"You voted for Ellmers? Do you realize how dumb she is?"

I don't care if she has an IQ of 2. Etheridge voted yay for the health care and cap and trade bills which is why I voted against him. I suspect that is why a lot of people voted against him.

11/3/2010 4:15:35 PM

Quote :

"wait... Rand Paul is a libertarian?? He proudly opposes abortion even in the cases of rape and incest"

I don't think that is inconsistent with libertarianism at all.


I am essentially a libertarian, but the capital-"L" types who actually run for stuff are overwhelmingly fucking crazy ideologues who have no concept whatsoever of moderation or pragmatism. I vote "L" on occasion, just like I vote "R" on occasion, but the Libertarian candidates are often just as intolerable to me as the ones from any other party.

11/3/2010 5:20:53 PM

Quote :

"before your edit, you said something like, "This is why nobody takes libertarians seriously." I'm not sure why..."

because what you said makes it sound like libertarians are either the only ones who are against murder and theft or it's all they care about

11/3/2010 5:32:12 PM

Quote :

"The difference being that with libertarianism, no personal and private beliefs are forced onto everyone. Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Republican means forcing abortion bans, homosexuality bans, and creationism onto everyone. Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Democrat means forcing gun bans, mandatory health insurance, and welfare taxes onto everyone. Saying "my way is the right way and ...everyone else can fuck off" as a Libertarian means forcing murder bans, theft bans, and cultural freedom onto everyone."

Homunculus argument.

Quote :

"Freedom comes by virtue of our humanity though, not because anyone permits it."

You are using freedom as a euphemism for chaos. I stopped caring about "freedom" and "liberty" once I realized that choice is an illusion. Once that happens you realize how stupid it is to let people just make mistakes for the sake of making them, although most people realize these kinds of problems anyways, which is why most people disagree with you.

11/3/2010 6:19:01 PM

so, if there is no choice, why make laws? after all, it'll all just happen anyway, right?

11/3/2010 6:45:47 PM

why hit a dog when he does something wrong?

11/3/2010 6:50:10 PM

if it's not a choice, then yeah, you are correct

11/3/2010 6:50:48 PM

a dog doesn't choose, but is still able to learn

[Edited on November 3, 2010 at 6:53 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2010 6:53:44 PM

what good is learning when there is still no choice to be made

11/3/2010 6:55:34 PM

It still effects the outcome. Your illusion of choice is based off of the environment around you, prison is one part of shaping that.

11/3/2010 6:57:41 PM

Libertarians like to live in their little fantasy world where everyone is a good person and does the right thing, information is 100% transparent, and corporations don't have evil intentions. The fact is, we don't live in that world and in many instances, government is the one thing keeping a lot of these things from happening. If every person in the world was good, and they worked completely for the betterment of humanity, then yes, libertarianism would be the best form of government and would work. Kind of the same way where if we could get communism to work perfectly, then it too would be the best form of government. Or the way if we could get democracy to function perfectly, then it would be the best form of government.

Just own up to it and admit that libertarianism (in practice) is just as fucked up and unjust as any other form of government. It's stupid to strictly adhere to any one form of government or ideology. There needs to be more flow between ideologies because certain solutions may work in some cases and not others. There is no black and white, which is what these labels attempt to force us into.

And stop saying libertarianism is the one pure ideology. It's so easy to refute you based on what you posted. Say I think it's perfectly fine to steal from someone just because I can. Because I'm free to do it. Well, turns out I'm just more libertarian than you are. Boom. Argument destroyed. Go read another Ayn Rand novel, faggot.

11/3/2010 7:07:18 PM

how? if action X will always occur at Time T, what good does learning do? it won't affect anything

11/3/2010 7:07:22 PM

Quote :

"There needs to be more flow between ideologies because certain solutions may work in some cases and not others. There is no black and white, which is what these labels attempt to force us into."

This is pretty much why libertarianism is almost the perfect form for the federal and many state governments to take. By having an absolute bare minimum of universal laws, each area is free to build their society in the way that best fits the situation. If Cary is best served as a meddling nanny state and Raleigh is best served as a capitalist utopia and Durham is best served as a welfare state, each one can do so. And since these decisions are made at a local level, they are made faster and by people with more knowledge about the situation than any wizened old man in a tower half way across the country could ever be.

Quote :

"how? if action X will always occur at Time T, what good does learning do? it won't affect anything"

He's basically treating dogs (and people) as machines. If you smack a dog when he pees on the carpet, you change the programming. No choice involved. He's wrong, or at least if he's right theres still enough unknown complexity that treating it as if there is no choice is the wrong approach.

11/3/2010 7:44:06 PM

Quote :

"That said, I registered as a libertarian just to show support for a third party"

I'd do this too, after the primaries (during which I would register as a Democrat or Republican based on which race I considered more important), but in Ohio you can only register as Democratic, Republican, or No Affiliation.

11/3/2010 7:52:14 PM

^^ You completely ignored the other parts of my post.

So you're basically saying that you think city-states should make a return? What about national defense? Hell, what would stop the city-states from warring with each other? Sounds like some apocalypse shit.

11/3/2010 8:25:06 PM

No.... IMStoned420 isn't making straw-man fallacies... not at all...

11/3/2010 8:57:58 PM

Vee believe in nuzzing

11/3/2010 9:08:19 PM

The rights of children are libertarian ideology's bane.

11/3/2010 9:30:30 PM

You don't get rights by belonging to a group. You get rights as an individual. Children don't deserve "special rights" aka government stealing based privileges like SCHIP legislation.

11/3/2010 10:06:56 PM

Quote :

"how? if action X will always occur at Time T, what good does learning do? it won't affect anything"

Action X only occurs at time T because of the actions that lead up to X, learning simply being a part of that.

Quote :

"If Cary is best served as a meddling nanny state and Raleigh is best served as a capitalist utopia and Durham is best served as a welfare state, each one can do so."

If Cary decides slavery is great, hey, why not?

Quote :

"No choice involved. He's wrong, or at least if he's right theres still enough unknown complexity that treating it as if there is no choice is the wrong approach."

There is unknown complexity, but that discounts all of the complexity we can understand, and take advantage of.

11/4/2010 12:23:35 AM

On some very fundamental level, I agree with Kris. We're basically just monkeys who have learned to quit throwing shit at each other (arguably) and stop playing with ourselves in public (thanks a lot, humanity).

I think he is wrong in thinking that we can be reprogrammed, however.

There's nearly seven billion of us. All it takes is one lone voice in the wilderness shouting, "You can do better than you're currently doing!" Most people will respond to that. They will abandon the dictatorship of the proletariat, or communism, or whatever. They will flock to the idea of making more money/stuff/bullshit they don't need. That is my fundamental problem with Kris' position: it requires perfection. He labors under the delusion that people can be conditioned as one whole mass -- or, perhaps, that the "few" people who don't "get it" can be eliminated or reconditioned. History doesn't back this up. Soviet leaders used their system to their benefit. Chinese leaders aren't exactly living in poverty. Castro isn't begging for food aid for himself (Raul or Fidel, I don't give a shit). People are animals. And as such, they want to get what they can.

11/4/2010 2:14:35 AM

^You don't think our immortal metaphysical components can overcome that?

11/4/2010 2:27:10 AM

I am religious but not entirely unreasonably. Although I'm sure indy will say I'm an asshole for even having religious beliefs, I am able to differentiate those from what I believe politically. The God I believe in said "rend unto Caesars" and I do that. What I believe personally is very different from what I believe spiritually. In the latter regard I believe that the spirit goes where the spirit wants. I'm not it's fucking boss.

So, as a man of science, we're a bunch of hairless fucking monkeys. From a religious perspective we're only slightly better than that (and, arguably, a lot worse by and large). Either way, we're lucky to not all be dead.

11/4/2010 2:44:44 AM