I saw, last evening, on WRAL, a brief mention that the UNC board has decided to raise tuition, AGAIN! This last semester, tuition increase by $300. Now, another $600 will be added? This is outrageous! At the current rate of increase, tuition could be doubled in a couple years! In these lean times, I've heard no news about cut backs in the UNC bureaucracy. Is the campuses are expected to manage on ever diminishing means, we should demand, not just expect, the same measures from the people in charge.

I am not without empathy for the board about the state of the budget. While it seems a draconian measure, it's time to start closing campuses. It makes no sense to have campuses on every corner of the state. UNC-CH manages the needs of Law, Science and Medicine. NCSU manages Engineering and Agriculture.

Why is it that there are so many community colleges? So many that they can barely maintain their campuses. Moreover, some that have wasted money by adding athletic programs to assert that they are more collegiate! Wasteful!

Rather than making education so expensive that it's unattainable, the UNC board should consider the removal of campuses that are superfluous. We don't need another engineering program in Asheville. We don't need any program in Elizabeth City. If these facilities were shut down, the worst effect this has on students is that they will have to commute, telecommute or downright relocate. That's what I did. Since my education mattered, I moved to be near the campus. What is redundant, needs to go. What is superfluous never should have been.

The days of having a campus for every township need to end. The answer to remedying the budget shortfall will not come from making it impossible for people to afford eduction. It will come from not trying to maintain more campuses than this state can afford.

In the meantime, whether or not you agree with my remedy, it's time that students do something about this before it goes too far. I think it's time that we organize and make the UNC board and state legislature as uncomfortable as possible. If it means circling the state assembly with pitchforks and torches, then it's time to do that. Nothing gets the attention of the Assembly like the sense that the villagers are angry... and that they're erecting a gallows outside!

If the state wants to make higher education unattainable, then maybe it deserves to be in financial crisis. Most of the other programs that the state funds don't return employment and better jobs to our economy. This is no different than eating the seed for next season, rather than slaughtering more of the chickens in the winter. There will be nothing left to plant. There will not be a viable next season. We cannot flourish, as a state, without educated people. The days of living on the tobacco teat have ended for NC. We're going to need people who know how to make products, run businesses, and innovate technologically.

We need to organize, revolt, and take back our university system!

11/20/2010 11:21:57 AM

Higher Eduction Isn't Free


I blame the GOP!

[Edited on November 20, 2010 at 11:36 AM. Reason : w]

11/20/2010 11:35:49 AM

Quote :

"We don't need another engineering program in Asheville. We don't need any program in Elizabeth City."

I suspect the community college components of the UNC system educate their students at far less per-student expense than the big universities do. As such, for efficiency sake, it seems more logical to close NCState and use the money to fund an army of smaller universities across the state.

11/20/2010 12:13:38 PM

Awesome, more shit I can't afford.

11/20/2010 12:33:08 PM

Seriously, you think breaking the universities into tiny colleges would be more cost effective? That proves to me that you need an university education! You won't help the state's economy by closing the school that provides it with new engineers, scientists, and farmers. Their work isn't esoteric, it's vital. You could argue better to shut down Chapel Hill. But you would also not have an affordable school to provide our society with doctors. I'm not claiming there's no use for community colleges. Community colleges just don't need to be so abundant in number! I've attended a community college and benefited from that experience.

11/20/2010 12:36:00 PM

None of us can afford the increase. It is why I'm asking you for help. I think we need to organize and bring a message to the UNC President, board, and the state legislature. We need to make it clear that this increase is insufferable, intolerable and downright unbearable. We bore an increase just last semester! This is too much at a time when our current grants and loans are already straining from the last increase.

11/20/2010 12:53:19 PM

for the love of verbosity...

11/20/2010 1:00:26 PM

DOWNRIGHT
RELOCATE

11/20/2010 2:16:54 PM

Quote :

"Community colleges just don't need to be so abundant in number!"

At least they do a better job of covering their own costs. You don't seem to be willing to cover NCState's costs, so if you don't think it is worth it, why should they?

That said, NCSU is not going anywhere. If the state cut all funding, NCSU would still be here, just in a slightly different form. From what I see of this University, it is spending money like there is no tomorrow. So, please, argue against the tuition increase, but the solution is not to allocate even more state funding to NCSU , the solution is for NCSU to stop spending so much. Did it absolutely need to build a full golf course? Would it really be ridiculous to sell off more of centennial campus? How about all the new bureaucracy NCSU has added over the last decade? Certainly some of it could be laid off.

11/20/2010 2:34:51 PM

You're absolutely right: we don't need a golf course. Most of us agree with that.

We don't argue that the education isn't worth paying for. But TWO increases in a year is excessive.

11/20/2010 2:38:35 PM

Quote :

"TO AFFORD EDUCTION"

11/20/2010 3:24:57 PM

Quote :

"None of us can afford the increase. It is why I'm asking you for help. I think we need to organize and bring a message to the UNC President, board, and the state legislature. disabuse ourselves from the idea that everyone needs to go to college, severely restrict federal student loan access to curtail degree inflation and encourage specialization through technical schools for people who really don't need a college degree to be an Administrative Assistant."

Fixed it for you.


Interestingly enough, two of the areas the Federal Government most heavily subsidizes have rates of inflation significantly higher than that of the market in general:




A third would be that paradigm of efficiency and thrift, the defense market.

11/20/2010 4:33:46 PM

Students over at UNC have been organizing for a while to fight against the "fascist university system" that raises tuition year after year, never bothering to figure out why tuition keeps going up, or what might be done to curtail it. The assumption from the government has recently been that the more people get degrees the better, and that the best way to increase the amount of degrees getting pumped out is to make student loans easier to obtain. So, that's how the system works now. Almost anyone can get a loan and go to college. It's always funny to me to see people rail against tuition hikes while supporting the infrastructure that results in those tuition hikes.

It's not unlike the housing bubble. The reasoning was, "hey, it would be better if more people owned homes. Therefore, let's make it easier for people to purchase homes on credit." That leads to higher prices, because demand is artificially inflated. If you make student loans easier to get, the price will have to adjust. As it stands now, universities have no reason to cut costs.

I actually find it offensive that anyone would advise against having more small technical colleges. These schools give you a much better bang for your buck, and they actually teach you how to do a job.

11/20/2010 5:39:13 PM

Quote :

"Interestingly enough, two of the areas the Federal Government most heavily subsidizes have rates of inflation significantly higher than that of the market in general: "

11/20/2010 5:42:38 PM

Quote :

"We don't need another engineering program in Asheville. We don't need any program in Elizabeth City. If these facilities were shut down, the worst effect this has on students is that they will have to commute, telecommute or downright relocate. That's what I did. Since my education mattered, I moved to be near the campus. What is redundant, needs to go. What is superfluous never should have been. "

The communte from Asheville to Raleigh (for engineering) is 251 miles each way. Say you get 30 miles per gallon, it's going to take 16.73 gallons of gas every time you travel back and forth.

At $2.75 a gallon, that's $46 a day. You'll blow through your $600 tuition hike real quick like that. This is also ignoring the 8 hours a day you'd lose doing nothing in your car.

Or say you're living at home attending while attending UNC Asheville -- $600 more a semester sounds a whole hell of a lot cheaper than moving and finding a rental, doesn't it?

And sure, you could telecommute, but then the school will still need money to build the infrastructure to allow you to do that and the IT staff to support it.

[Edited on November 20, 2010 at 6:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2010 6:49:28 PM

just some random stuff:

for every $1 the state spends on state, we give $6 back

tuition is 16% of NC State's budget... the college needs to find 84% other places

here's an faq http://www.ncsu.edu/budget/faq/ that we provide

if you have questions, please send 'em on to: http://www.ncsu.edu/budget/feedback/

[Edited on November 20, 2010 at 7:25 PM. Reason : =]

11/20/2010 7:20:06 PM

Source: http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/university-graduation-rates/

Could part of the problem be that we are subsidizing more and more students who don't graduate?

11/20/2010 7:20:35 PM

^You're right. It's not the bloated and inefficient system...it's those gosh darn Latinos.

Quote :

"I suspect the community college components of the UNC system educate their students at far less per-student expense than the big universities do."

I suspect community colleges routinely get busted for fraud...

Like fabricating students in order to get funding.

IOW, GTFO.

11/20/2010 7:27:17 PM

what does your graph suggest that we do?

say it in plain English so you're not accused of being racist by these fucking liberals

[Edited on November 20, 2010 at 7:32 PM. Reason : ^^]

11/20/2010 7:27:46 PM

Why are you two focusing on race? It's pretty clear that even the whiteys aren't graduating as much at schools that are less competitive.

11/20/2010 7:46:47 PM

^Cause that's what the graph and the article are about.

Sure, it could be about low graduation rates in general, but, in that case, it would be a horrible graph to use since it doesn't account for the loads of students who transfer and go on to graduate from another institution.

11/20/2010 7:57:07 PM

No one not currently in college cares.

11/20/2010 9:00:48 PM

"NC GOP takes control of general assembly"
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=604319

Supplanter:

Quote :

"I saw an old budgeting professor yesterday who I haven't seen in about a year, and he was talking about the election results. He's a pretty conservative guy, but he still seemed a little bummed about the results b/c he felt the GOP wont give the university system special consideration when doing the cuts, they'll be as vulnerable as everyone else."

wlfpk4evr:

Quote :

"While the university's do have a very critical and important role, to say that a certain % cut could not be made without impacting the education of the students may not be true. You can cut amenities, activities, social activities. "

Don't have much to add, but just thought I'd throw in that recent piece of discussion from another thread where we talked about university making cuts.

Given the new reality of higher education being less of a budget priority in the state, students in the several years are probably looking at paying more in tuition for less education.

11/20/2010 10:24:15 PM

Eliminate tenure.
Voraciously attack budget hording.(spend more to justify next year's departmental allowance)
Eliminate student fees/student government.

11/21/2010 12:20:49 AM

I suspect this is quite reasonable. When I did my undergrad, I lived in a cramped dorm and attended class in nearly half century old buildings with a chalk board. Since then, NCSU has been working itself to death to dramatically improve its apparent quality with brand new buildings on centennial, a golf course, etc. As such, it is absurd for tuition to be so competitive against its private school counterparts. As such, I suspect the state should reduce its funding for NCSU to fund more community colleges across the state. If you want cheap tuition, don't attend a university with so many brand new high-tech classrooms.

11/21/2010 1:54:21 AM

I always got a kick out of attending the most technologically advanced classes the university had to offer in a building with no hot water, missing windows, and asbestos hanging from the ceiling.

11/21/2010 2:04:07 AM

^ha, I got the same feeling. which building are you talking about?

11/21/2010 6:00:18 AM

I knew I should put a disclaimer on that graph... Couldn't find one that did not break out some minority group. The point is a lot of people start, but don't finish. The academic bar should be set at a level that prevents this. Universities should stop trying to increase and then fill that capacity with subpar freshman, unless the plan is everyone goes to college, just not finish.

11/21/2010 7:53:33 AM

Here is another good link from NC State -- info on the bottom is most interesting.
http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/admissions/fresprof.htm

11/21/2010 8:31:54 AM

^Dude, I totally feel you. Those numbers look pitiful, but they are actually pretty good. I think we could find schools with much worse graduation rates.

It is interesting how the 2003 kids had the highest SAT average and the highest rate of four-year graduation. But that could be the result of more aggressive policies to get kids to go on and graduate somehow. It's also interesting how as freshman persistence rates go up so do graduation rates--that's heartening!

Back to your point though...it's not evident to me that State is accepting subpar students--average SAT score of incoming freshmen is nearly 200 points above 1000. Furthermore, your chart shows an increase in graduation rates over time. If we are increasing graduation rates, how could low graduation rates be responsible for our most recent budget challenges? You understand we've had low graduation rates for decades, right? We used to shove three kids in a two-bed dorm room with a cot and tell them to work out the sleeping arrangements until one of them flunked.

11/22/2010 12:47:28 AM

college isn't for everyone.

11/22/2010 10:04:16 AM

what's tuition these days anyway?


When I was at state, it was like $1200-$1400 per semester between 1996 and 2002.

11/22/2010 10:47:11 AM

I believe tuition increase is all a part of an elaborate conspiracy. It's the secret arm of the The Affirmative Action Train ™ ... think about it.

11/22/2010 10:50:00 AM

^^ I'm taking two online classes this semester and it was around $1100. Dunno what full time tuition is.

11/22/2010 10:58:24 AM

tuition is a lot higher now
Tuition and fees, NC residents: $6529
http://www.ncsu.edu/future-students/can-i-afford-it/index.php

also, if you take an online class too you have another set of tuition and fees:
http://distance.ncsu.edu/tuition/undergraduate-tuition.php

11/22/2010 11:32:32 AM

Quote :

"Rather than making education so expensive that it's unattainable, the UNC board should consider the removal of campuses that are superfluous. We don't need another engineering program in Asheville. We don't need any program in Elizabeth City. If these facilities were shut down, the worst effect this has on students is that they will have to commute, telecommute or downright relocate"

I believe they are starting to evaluate chopping a few of the UNC system schools like your Elizabeth City's and Winston Salem's.

Quote :

"If the state wants to make higher education unattainable, then maybe it deserves to be in financial crisis. Most of the other programs that the state funds don't return employment and better jobs to our economy. This is no different than eating the seed for next season, rather than slaughtering more of the chickens in the winter. There will be nothing left to plant. There will not be a viable next season. We cannot flourish, as a state, without educated people"

Pretty much my point of view. Cutting funds to education to "save money" is like an individual slashing one's 401k contribution
as a way of "saving money".

Quote :

"The assumption from the government has recently been that the more people get degrees the better, and that the best way to increase the amount of degrees getting pumped out is to make student loans easier to obtain. So, that's how the system works now. Almost anyone can get a loan and go to college."

I have no problem with the government giving student loans to brilliant minds and those that legitimatly want to make it in life.
I am fairly economic conservative and do not believe in handouts but this is one area where i do not mind openning the penny bag. That being said the problem is the fact by encouraging everyone to go to college, loans are being given out to students who do not or should not
be in college. These kids are wasting $1000's of tax payer subsidized tuition bills, only to sit around in their boxers playing video games and getting drunk on the weekend.
They then fail out or drop out. On the flip I see no problem with giving loans to those that are sitting in class, making good grades, and
will be a tax paying productive college educated individual.

Quote :

"The communte from Asheville to Raleigh (for engineering) is 251 miles each way."

Who the fuck is going to commute that far. Sounds like they need to be transferring to NCSU if they really want to be an engineer.
UNCC also has a program.

Quote :

"Could part of the problem be that we are subsidizing more and more students who don't graduate? "

Exactly. Subsidized Student Loans and Grants should require a GPA minimum and a Credit hour minimum. I am all about
giving people a chance to move out of the trailer park, but if they are not making grades than they should be flipping burgers or building houses
not wasting tax payer money.

[Edited on November 22, 2010 at 12:00 PM. Reason : a]

11/22/2010 11:58:41 AM

Quote :

"I have no problem with the government giving student loans to brilliant minds and those that legitimatly want to make it in life. I am fairly economic conservative and do not believe in handouts but this is one area where i do not mind openning the penny bag. That being said the problem is the fact by encouraging everyone to go to college, loans are being given out to students who do not or should not be in college. These kids are wasting $1000's of tax payer subsidized tuition bills, only to sit around in their boxers playing video games and getting drunk on the weekend. They then fail out or drop out. On the flip I see no problem with giving loans to those that are sitting in class, making good grades, and will be a tax paying productive college educated individual."

I do have a problem with the government backing student loans. Private loan institutions can determine who they want to give loans to. What we do agree on, though, is that many loans are being given out to high school graduates that want four years of adult daycare. That drives up tuition for everyone. The fact is, if the government were not providing loans, tuition would be much lower, and people could afford to go to school without getting into a shit ton of debt.

11/22/2010 12:27:19 PM

Quote :

"I do have a problem with the government backing student loans. Private loan institutions can determine who they want to give loans to. What we do agree on, though"

I agree somewhat. While I do not have a problem with the government providing loan subsidies, I am very much against the Federal government's recent move to become the sole source of student loans. I do not understand why they did this...

Quote :

"he fact is, if the government were not providing loans, tuition would be much lower, and people could afford to go to school without getting into a shit ton of debt. "

It also helps that NC subsidizes the hell of our in-state tuition. There is a reason why we have many out-of-state students from Virginia coming to NCSU compared to those coming from SC...

[Edited on November 22, 2010 at 1:03 PM. Reason : aa]

11/22/2010 1:02:06 PM

don't they raise tuition just about every year?

11/22/2010 2:31:17 PM

^ In the 10 years I've been at NCSU it has gone up every year except one.

11/22/2010 2:35:39 PM

BridgetSPK: I actually think NCSU is pretty good -- we'd be in the Very - Highly competitive colleges (I think). I don't think institutions like NCSU are the issue. As a tax payer I'll gladly assist those that can get into, maintain high marks, and graduate a top institution, it's just those "other" schools.

If $1K of my taxes go to universities, I'd rather a healthy majority go to support engineering/science/math/business/ag/education @ NCSU / UNCC then be split equally by student headcount for a college so that someone can get a law degree at Western Carolina (hypothetical). Support those that generate economic growth & jobs for the state.

11/22/2010 7:36:50 PM

it's always been my understanding that UNC system was like the third rail of NC politics, so things must be pretty dire to be jacking up the prices like they keep doing. we marched to the capital to protest a tuition increase back when i was at state in 2000 (a lot of good it did i see).

i don't know that i'd eliminate tenure because it's not easy to get. even though i was a little disappointed you all voted down the student center renovation i completely understood it because i wouldn't be the one paying for it; you all would. parking decks, dorms, buildings, dining halls, and golf courses aren't what has such a great affect on tuition. all of that stuff i believe is self liquidating which is why its growth is much more realistic. tuition rises like it does because NCSU has an army of employees that sit around on their asses collecting checks.

SPA salaries aren't public information so the best you could do is figure out their job title and look it up on on NCSU's HR site. SPAs are people that cut grass, process your book in the library, fix your food in fountain, greet you as you enter financial aid, that kind of stuff. EPA salaries are public information and can be viewed in the faculty senate in the library. EPAs usually manage the SPAs and include chancellors, deans, (asst/assoc) directors, faculty, librarians, academic advisors, etc. completely ignoring the people that are faculty, go in there and see for yourselves what you pay some of those people to do close to nothing and you'll see why your tuition goes up annually.

11/22/2010 9:29:42 PM

^^ If you want to give money to NCState, go ahead. We have a great Alumni program. But the purpose of state education dollars is to educate the citizenry, which should be done as efficiently as possible. And even after drop-outs, I suspect smaller community colleges educate a student with less subsidy than NCState does. That means, given the same tax dollars, we can educate more people by reducing the subsidy to NCSU.

11/22/2010 11:58:28 PM