Looks like Torrent-Finders domain was seized by DHS. It can still be reached on .info though.

http://torrentfreak.com/u-s-government-seizes-bittorrent-search-engine-domain-and-more-101126/

They also hit some Hip-hop music trading sites and a lot of sites that had knock off clothes.

[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 10:50 AM. Reason : ]

11/27/2010 10:49:17 AM

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=599351

11/27/2010 10:59:12 AM

Sorry I was more interested in discussing that the sites that were shutdown instead of the "Impending Destruction of the Internet". Hence why I started a new topic and put it in Tech Talk, instead of The Soap Box.

BTW, I searched and didn't find shit on it.

[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 12:05 PM. Reason : Maybe I should post on the impending destruction of TWW where threads can be moved with no warning]

11/27/2010 12:02:44 PM

Well, you're here now.

No one cares about pirates. They are one step above pedophiles in public opinion. You have no recourse. They can shut down your sites even for discussing torrents. Just give up.

11/27/2010 12:05:34 PM

I feel more secure now.


No, really. Wtf is DHS doing involved (I didn't read the link).

11/27/2010 12:06:00 PM

Apparently they have more leniency in being able to shutdown sites. But what the fuck do they have to do with knock off products. I don't feel that has anything to do with homeland security. At least with torrents there can be some issue of sensitive data being transmitted.

11/27/2010 12:07:34 PM

homeland security (for corporations)

The full name wouldn't fit on the badge.

Why do you think cops arrest guys selling fake handbags at the flea market? Because their puppet masters tell them to.

[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 12:13 PM. Reason : .]

11/27/2010 12:12:54 PM

see knockoff products hurt our economy by reducing the income for those who worked hard to create the real deal and reducing the incentive to make cool new shit

it's like software piracy only for IRL things, only we do not yet have the technology to clone physical objects, and it's generally not free to the end-user because the knock-offs use up raw materials that themselves are not free

of course knock-offs are often of inferior quality, while pirated software is usually just as good as legitimately purchased (depending on the amount of hax and malware involved), so I'm personally OK with piracy but squeamish about buying knock-offs, especially items from rogue online pharmacies

11/27/2010 3:05:55 PM

I feel opposite. Piracy is directly stealing someone's work. A knockoff is just as difficult to make, requires purchasing tooling, raw materials and labor, then shipping costs. A knockoff is a real product that just happens to have a fake name on it. Therefore it's less of a crime.

11/27/2010 3:28:58 PM

Semiconductor knockoffs are outright dangerous. But, since you're just trolling anyway...

11/27/2010 3:41:00 PM

I love Hong Kong and their cheap semiconductors. I own many.

[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 3:46 PM. Reason : It's the american originators fault for charging too much, thus creating the market for counterfeits]

11/27/2010 3:45:44 PM

I'm talking about commodity transistors for example. Parts that cost $2 and the OEM is making 3% margin on them and some asshole in china has copied the package and markings and is selling it as legit in many instances forcing distributors to eat costs related to having to take the product back when designers find out they have fakes.

[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/27/2010 3:49:14 PM

A civil matter.

[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 3:52 PM. Reason : And a problem that can be avoided by buying American semiconductors.]

11/27/2010 3:51:41 PM

Sure, I'll just sue some guy in a Chinese court, that will teach em!



[Edited on November 27, 2010 at 3:55 PM. Reason : God damn, are you the dumbest mother fucker here? Are you dnl?]

11/27/2010 3:54:00 PM

Quote :

"see knockoff products hurt our economy by reducing the income for those who worked hard to create the real deal and reducing the incentive to make cool new shit"

By this logic, intellectual property rights should be extended to every creation or idea that has ever been thought of. That's so very Objectivist of you. No, in fact, providing similar (but not identical) products at a lower cost to consumer is not bad for the economy, but great for the economy. Just because you come up with an idea doesn't mean I can't attempt (and succeed) to create the same thing with my own property. You have no right to tell me that I can't.

11/27/2010 4:36:12 PM

No one is saying you can't. We are saying that you can't put our name on your shit.

11/27/2010 4:50:53 PM

to be fair I actually think that intellectual property needs less protection than it now has; I was just trying to make the connection between software piracy and counterfeit goods, that the latter is the closest possible analogue to the former with respect to physical items

Quote :

"Piracy is directly stealing someone's work."

no, because when you pirate software, the maker of the software still has a copy; integral to stealing is the deprivation of the original owner of his or her property

11/27/2010 5:44:32 PM

^right, you stole the money that you would have otherwise paid for the use of his product.

11/27/2010 7:38:49 PM

^
lol.
You're in college and you don't see what how fail that is?

You're assuming you're correct in order to show that you're correct. (which is complete bullshit.)


also,

Quote :

"integral to stealing is the deprivation of the original owner of his or her property"

Quote :

"right, you stole the money that..."

What was stolen? the property? or the money?


You moderates may be well-adjusted and think your shit doesn't stink, but supporting "intellectual property" will destroy freedom.
Watch it happen.

11/27/2010 8:04:45 PM

But Americans don't make real things anymore. Intellectual property is all we have left.

11/27/2010 8:46:22 PM

^^ Completely trampling people's "intellectual property," as is what is happening with software will kill the industry. Why major in Computer Science and spend months, even years, on developing software, only to have some shit head from Russia crack it in 5 minutes, upload it to TPB in 1 minute, and have 100 seeders in 3 hours? If you allow people to take what they want and allow them to violate the rights of the creator, what incentive is there to actually create?

Allowing people to patent "ideas" without creating a damn thing is a problem. But guarding the rights of the creator of software, in which there is actual tangible software, a product of sorts, won't destroy freedom, but rather safe guard it and ensure that there is a motivation to create.

Allowing people to just copy and re-distribute software without the creator's permission is a violation of the creator's rights. That destroys freedom. Allowing people to infringe on other people's rights is what leads to anarchy and social chaos. You, a self-proclaimed libertarian, should be able to understand the concept of allowing people to do what they want as long as they don't infringe on the rights of other people.

11/27/2010 9:49:18 PM

Quote :

"the rights of the creator"

At the moment of creation, an idea is only in the possession of its creator.
Once you share it, it is no longer "yours".
At no point was it your property.

I mean, I understand you all must do cognitive gymnastics in order to maintain the illusion that ideas can be property,
and you probably think we opponents of "intellectual property" are the ones fooling ourselves,
but damn...

It's like you're in some fantasy world where metaphorical property is real property.

Even practically speaking, there may have been a time when modern technology was just getting started, and the control that "intellectual property" provided was necessary for profit and innovation, but those days are pretty much gone. That way of thinking is simply not necessary.

I'm not gonna get too deep into the issue right now, but, in my opinion, you guys are probably hopeless anyway. I certainly don't expect you to change your mind easily either, if at all. Because, if you really believe something is property, and you can just make this property out of thin air and own it, then you're likely too blinded by dollars signs to think clearly... or perhaps by loyalty to the nation and thus to capitalism in general, since you think we're dealing with property here. (I mean... I'll defend our right to actual property. I am a libertarian. Once you realize that ideas aren't property, it should be clear why there's no inconsistency with libertarianism and opposition to "intellectual property".)

11/27/2010 11:41:46 PM

It's just as valid to call your ideas property as it is to stick a flag in ground and call it your property. This is how white people operate.

11/27/2010 11:45:14 PM

I'm having a hard time understanding how software is "an idea". It isn't as if I can "think" of software and it just comes into being.

11/27/2010 11:51:04 PM

My view is that intellectual property doesn't need to be protected as much as it does, basically that the concept of "abandonware" should be codified into law, that copyright terms ought to be re-restricted so much that someone born when a work is created could freely use it as an adult because by then it will have entered the public domain; I don't think that creators ought to be completely unprotected (although I do think "theft" or "stealing" is the wrong term to use), even though personally I do try to circumvent copyright protections, much like a rich Republican pre-Roe paying for his daughter's back-alley abortion.

11/28/2010 12:12:48 AM

Quote :

"It isn't as if I can "think" of software and it just comes into being."

You think of an idea of how to structure the code to make the instructions for a machine to provide a particular service.

(Did I phrase that right? I've been drinking Eggnog, lol)

11/28/2010 12:22:27 AM

indy, I like how you took a part of what I said, quoted it, misconstrued it, and then completely ignored the rest of what I said.



Did you miss the part where I said this?

Quote :

"Allowing people to patent "ideas" without creating a damn thing is a problem."

You must have.

Protecting people from taking someone's idea and using it is a problem. All it has spawned is patent trolls and useless litigation between companies who breach each other's patents.

But copyright laws are quite a bit different. I have no problem with copyright laws. If you write a book, what prevents anyone from taking the book, putting it on a copy machine, and mass producing copies of the book and selling them. Meanwhile, the author who wrote the damn thing, gets nothing in return. That's a blatant theft of their work. Software piracy is no different than taking a book, putting it on a copier and giving copies of a book away.

But I really don't expect you to know jack shit about software patents and copyright laws for software. But I will explain it in this way simply. Software patents is just like any other patent, in that the creator of the idea is patenting their implementation. This extends to UI elements, and software specifications. Meanwhile, a software copyright gives the creator the right to do whatever they want with their creation. You copyright a creation, you patent an idea, so to speak.

If I make a game and I come up with a new algorithm for computing physics for a game (or anything else), then I would patent that. But the game itself, which may include the implementation of the algorithm, would have a copyright.

Quote :

"At the moment of creation, an idea is only in the possession of its creator. Once you share it, it is no longer "yours". At no point was it your property."

Software isn't an idea. It is the result of a culmination of ideas. But software is the end result of writing up your ideas into a program. It's like a book. You're actually producing something. If I think of a storyline for a book, then the thought of the storyline is the "idea." I agree, you shouldn't be allowed to protect that. But as soon as you write it down into a book, the words you used and the product of your ideas is property. "Intellectual property" isn't just ideas. You have a very narrow definition of "Intellectual property."

Quote :

"It's like you're in some fantasy world where metaphorical property is real property."

Plagiarism is very real. It's also against the law to take someone's source code and use it in your program. You are stealing their work.

Quote :

"Because, if you really believe something is property, and you can just make this property out of thin air and own it, then you're likely too blinded by dollars signs to think clearly..."

What differentiates the words that you wrote in your book from land that you paid to have? Is that land not your property? Why is the book not your property? You can see the words, you can read the words, you can hold the book. If you accept that you own the rights of the book, why not that you own the rights to your software? What's the difference? You can print out the source code, bind it, and publish it if you want. Or you can compile it, and distribute it in that manner.

Quote :

"I'll defend our right to actual property."

What is actual property? Who are you to decide what is and isn't property?

Quote :

"You think of an idea of how to structure the code to make the instructions for a machine to provide a particular service."

Your idea on how to structure the code is just an idea. When you sit your ass down to write the structure down and create the code and instructions for the service, that is a product of your ideas. That is your property. I agree the idea is not your property. I'm not really a supporter of software patents.

11/28/2010 12:46:29 AM

Quote :

"You think of an idea of how to structure the code to make the instructions for a machine to provide a particular service. "

I can think of an idea for a physical hardware product as well, that doesn't bring it into existence. Is that really your reply? You seem like a guy that has no idea about software.

Both software and physical products require physical capital (manpower, buildings, computers) to make, so why should software be free to everyone? I suppose in some instances I think software is overpriced, and this is likely where your argument is rooted and you just don't realize it (making you more of a socialist than any sort of libertarian).

11/28/2010 9:54:09 AM

You guys are farting into your hands and calling it an apple.

There is so much fail in the way you are presenting this, that I don't know where to start. Clearly, your attempts at logic and deduction aren't enough. Your horse is at the water, and yet it won't drink. I don't have the patience to sit there and splash water at it until it fucking realizes what's actually going on.

Really though. At least try to keep an open mind on this. (Something I'm pretty sure you're too blinded by $$$/control to do.)

Quote :

"Software isn't an idea. It is the result of a culmination of ideas.....as soon as you write it down ....the product of your ideas is property."

Look deeper here. This is where you fail really hard...

Quote :

"you all must do cognitive gymnastics in order to maintain the illusion that ideas can be property"

If I actually thought you had a chance to realize your mistake, (and admit it here in the thread,) I'd continue to argue.
I could waste time quote bombing for pages, but you've got your fucking head in the sand. There's no point.

Have fun with the last word. It'll be tough for me to not respond, but I'm the bigger man.

(thanks in advance to lewisje for sticking around and explaining why this isn't property.)

11/28/2010 10:47:50 AM

Talk about diarrhea passed off as a post. You have no explanation for the capital effort...ie IT TAKES PROPERTY TO CREATE...PROPERTY..., NOT JUST A THOUGHT IN YOUR BRAIN YOU ASSHAT...so you just shit that post all over the thread.

Good fucking going!

11/28/2010 10:57:36 AM

Quote :

"of course knock-offs are often of inferior quality, while pirated software is usually just as good as legitimately purchased (depending on the amount of hax and malware involved"

Actually it is sometimes better because it circumvents the bullshit copy protections that are required to play legitimate copies of games now.

Quote :

"Why major in Computer Science and spend months, even years, on developing software, only to have some shit head from Russia crack it in 5 minutes, upload it to TPB in 1 minute, and have 100 seeders in 3 hours?"

This will happen, whether the software is DRM-laden or DRM free. The only difference is, some people are under the incorrect assumption that every download of a piece of software is a lost sale. Some is, undeniably, but many of these pirates are collectors. They just live to download and break the law. Not to play and enjoy the games and software they get. Bottom line, software piracy has a negative impact on the developers, but the impact by alarmists and people who profit from combating piracy benefit from overstating the impact. Also it has been used on several occasions by a developer who delivers a shit game as the scapegoat to explain bad sales.

It is sad that as a frequent and avid PC gamer that I have had to totally boycott games because of the ridiculous DRM enforced on its users. My latest example would be the ridiculous DRM put in place on Assassins Creed, where you have to have a constant network connection to play a SINGLE PLAYER GAME. God forbid you have a laptop and want to play on a flight, on vacation, etc. Meanwhile the pirates broke that shit extremely quickly and play it wherever they want to. That is ridiculous and I refuse to support the developers, or pirate the game either.

I will freely admit I used to be a frequent torrent user. My dilemma was more about availability of games, since I live in BFE and nowhere close to game stores. But with products like Steam and a nice internet connection now, I am able to get damn near all the games I want downloaded straight to my computer, and still support the devs. With this and Netflix Watch Instantly, I am now legitimately watching and supporting all the shows I want to.

I totally support the idea of codifying abandonware into law, so that people who are trading and making available old games no longer supported or available can be protected. I would be totally in favor of a window, say 10 years, on copyright for video games. After that time, or at the time that the developer stops all support for a product, it should become abandonware, much like books become public domain, and can be freely distributed without prosecution. I love playing old games, but God help me if I tried to purchase a new CD of Simtower or some of my ancient games that have the media going bad on them. So I still do some downloads of these old games, but I find it hard to feel like I am taking advantage of somebody for downloading a product that is no longer for sale and often times put out by a company that may no longer even be in business.

[Edited on November 28, 2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason : ]

11/28/2010 11:19:51 AM

Quote :

"You guys are farting into your hands and calling it an apple. There is so much fail in the way you are presenting this, that I don't know where to start. Clearly, your attempts at logic and deduction aren't enough. Your horse is at the water, and yet it won't drink. I don't have the patience to sit there and splash water at it until it fucking realizes what's actually going on."

Are you trying to say something, other than, "I really have no fucking idea about what I'm talking about, but I'm too stupid to admit it."

Quote :

"Really though. At least try to keep an open mind on this. (Something I'm pretty sure you're too blinded by $$$/control to do.)"

And where are you keeping an open mind about this? Your idea of someone keeping an open mind is that they agree with you. You think that you're the holy grail of fucking logic. I can assure you, you are nowhere close.

Quote :

"Look deeper here. This is where you fail really hard..."

I don't see it. There is nothing "gymnastic" between differentiating an idea, scribbled on a piece of paper, and then taking that idea and creating something from it.

If I come up with a new compression algorithm, that is an idea. If I take that idea and make a program that makes use of it, that is a product. What's so hard to understand about that? You are clearly unable to differentiate an idea from a product/work. You really are obtuse.

If you pirate software, you are basically plagiarizing a programmer's work. You are stealing their work and their effort. If you want to re-create the same program yourself, then by all means, do it. People are doing this right now for Windows, called ReactOS, in which they are trying re-create Windows without stealing MS's work.

Quote :

"If I actually thought you had a chance to realize your mistake, (and admit it here in the thread,) I'd continue to argue."

Which would be? Sounds to me like you're just copping out. If you feel that I made a mistake, and you want to assert that I made a mistake, then take it upon yourself to show that I made a mistake. But I guess I can't expect that from a person who's unable to differentiate an idea from a product/work.

11/28/2010 12:12:09 PM

Quote :

"What was stolen? the property? or the money?"

You are stealing the developer's time and effort that he put into creating his product, the time and effort he invested with an expectation that he would be monetarily rewarded. If you choose to pretend that you aren't harming the developer by using his product without paying for it, or if you choose to pretend that you're not stealing his product, well you can believe whatever you want.

Out of curiosity, what is your take on using an advertising consultant to create an ad campaign for you and then choosing not to pay the consultant but still use his ideas?

11/28/2010 4:47:11 PM

Never thought I would see the day that a libertarian would completely reject the underlining thesis of Atlas Shrugged. Then again, indy is a special individual.

11/28/2010 6:00:06 PM

Quote :

"(thanks in advance to lewisje for sticking around and explaining why this isn't property.)"

sry, I never said that, just that intellectual property should be considered a lesser class than financial, physical, or real property

11/28/2010 9:16:35 PM

They could at least put something funny up there like "pwnt by ICE".

11/29/2010 11:50:58 AM

You've been closed by ICE
You're willing to sacrifice your URL
You never take advice
Someday you'll pay the price, I know

I've seen it before
It happens all the time
(We'll be) Closing the door
You leave the world behind

You're digging for content
Yet throwing away
A fortune in torrents
But someday you'll pay

[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 12:04 PM. Reason : So much cooler.]

11/29/2010 12:02:03 PM

Quote :

"Wtf is DHS doing involved (I didn't read the link)."

Immigration and Customs Enforcement is part of DHS. They deal with everything from counterfeit Louis Vuittons to stolen antiquities.

11/30/2010 9:23:56 AM

^^ Now that songs stuck in my head

11/30/2010 10:09:47 AM