So my brother is in possession of my beloved Honda Civic hatchback. He wants to teach his girlfriend how to drive a manual. Just around the parking lot, they won't take it out in the road. I'm concerned that she'll burn out the clutch or something. (the car is a 95 and has never had the clutch replaced as far as I know) Note: she lived in the city so she has barely driven since high school. Am I worrying to much? How much damage could she really do? thanks!!

1/5/2011 2:12:50 PM

If he teaches her properly it could be fine it is really on how good of a teacher your brother is. He needs to get her out in a level parking lot and have her get the car moving without using the gas.

1/5/2011 2:17:28 PM

Quote :

"my beloved Honda Civic hatchback"

RIP

1/5/2011 2:26:19 PM

The best way to teach ANYone to drive a stick is on a hill. Not a real steep one, but enough that once they get the hand of it, regular starts will be easy and they will have an idea what it will take to start on a steep hill.

1/5/2011 2:28:15 PM

^I agree with that, though I will add that if she's a crapy driver in general she might not have any luck...and since your car is already 15 years old (with its supposed original clutch) it could be just the thing to wear out what's left of that clutch.

All in all it's hard to say. Back in college I had a pledge DD for me once and he was going to drive my car. He had a manual transmission in his own car, but that didn't stop him from slipping the clutch so badly that the interior filled with smoke just when he was trying to back out of a parking spot. Needless to say he never set foot in my car again. On the flipside that was 7 years and 50k miles ago and the clutch is still functional

[Edited on January 5, 2011 at 2:30 PM. Reason : k]

1/5/2011 2:29:18 PM

Clutch is cheap enough. Guilt them into paying for parts and have ZXappeal install it.

Worst case!!!!


D15Z1 owns!!!!!!!!! VTEC-E

1/5/2011 2:29:53 PM

so is burning out the clutch the worst that could happen? He lives in Raleigh but his gf is in Charleston. would it be bad enough that he couldn't drive home on it?

1/5/2011 2:55:07 PM

If you burn out the clutch you can't drive it...anywhere.

1/5/2011 2:57:42 PM

Interesting...my ex-wife attempted to teach her sister how to drive stick in her '95 Civic EX.

I had to replace the clutch two months later. The disc hub fractured and one of the hub springs lodged itself between the disc and the pressure plate's diaphragm. Result? Hard pedal, no clutch release.

So there you go. Just a chance you have to take. On the good side of things, you have an in with zxappeal and Crest Road Fab...did you know that?

1/5/2011 3:32:06 PM

Of course you can drive a car with a clutch that won't disengage. It's just not advisable or safe...though it can make things interesting

1/5/2011 3:44:29 PM

Sure can. Was easier on my old motorcycle when the clutch cable broke, since you could give it a little roll and pop it into gear. Uphills sucked though, had to anticipate having to stop, then coast up to the light/line of cars hoping to time it right.

As far as teaching someone on your car... It will probably be fine unless they are completely retarded or uncoordinated. I'd say worst case scenario they glaze the clutch or take some metal off the dog teeth. Possibly break an engine or transmission mount (or excessively wear bushings) bucking heavily in 1st gear.

1/5/2011 4:21:32 PM

depends if she's a natural and depends how good of a teacher your brother is. not to stereotype but I have found that a higher percentage of women freak out when they are attempting to drive stick. They just panic if something doesn't go according to plan.

1/5/2011 6:14:14 PM

So what exactly would you have to do to "burn out" the clutch or "slip the clutch"?

Genuinely curious.

[I don't have much practice with manuals. I own one now and have been driving it daily for the past 2 months, and before that I have driven a manual perhaps 10 times ever over 10 years (learning from dad, and friends' cars)]

Last thing I want is a burnt or slipped clutch

1/5/2011 6:18:27 PM

As you let the clutch pedal out but before your foot is completely off it (pedal halfway up), the disc begins to touch the flywheel. The disc and the flywheel are spinning at two different speeds but they are making contact. This is when wear occurs. If you are opening the throttle at the same time wear increases. Heat builds up and you get the burnt clutch smell.

As far as "slipping the clutch" well that term is used in a few different ways. When people say they are "slipping the clutch" it may refer to what I was just describing, where the clutch pedal is not all the way down and not all the way up. The cltuch disc and flywheel are spinning at different rates and wearing against each other.

If someone says "my clutch is slipping" it means that there is not enough friction between the flywheel and the clutch disc. The clutch isn't grabbing and it feels like you are revving the car in neutral. This can happen when a clutch is near the end of its life or it is being overwhelmed from towing, drag racing, burnouts, whatever.

1/5/2011 6:27:45 PM

I thought that's what it would be.

However, when you start moving from rest, you do have to press on the gas before you let the clutch out fully (otherwise you stall), but I guess that time should be minimized as much as possible, right?

And what about when you shift into higher gears when you are already moving? For example, when I shift into 3rd from 2nd, should I let the clutch out fully, and then press on the gas, or should I press on the gas just before I let the clutch out fully? Of course, if you let it out fully without having pushed on the gas, the car won't stall, but it does get jerky. Is that bad for the car? OTOH, if you don't let it out fully and press on the gas, that increases wear as you said, right?

Yes, basic questions, but I never really learnt how to drive manual properly from anyone. Kind of just figured it out myself.

Thanks for your previous answers, and thanks in advance if you answer my latest questions.

1/5/2011 6:53:12 PM

O
E
PI


your gayraging privileges have been revoked.

1/5/2011 7:04:59 PM

One time I gave my friend a crash 30 minute course in how to drive stick so he could tote a girl and I to the bar. I got laid. But I also had to replace my clutch. It was worth it

1/5/2011 7:06:36 PM

Quote :

"However, when you start moving from rest, you do have to press on the gas before you let the clutch out fully (otherwise you stall), but I guess that time should be minimized as much as possible, right?"

Not always. On a lot of OEM clutches, if you let the clutch out just right and you aren't going uphill you can actually get the engine going without having to give it gas. It has to do with what kind of torque the engine makes down low, the weight of the flywheel, etc.

Quote :

"And what about when you shift into higher gears when you are already moving? For example, when I shift into 3rd from 2nd, should I let the clutch out fully, and then press on the gas, or should I press on the gas just before I let the clutch out fully? "

It depends on the engine, the clutch & flywheel, and your driving style. You can slip it slightly between shifts but you don't have to.

Quote :

"Of course, if you let it out fully without having pushed on the gas, the car won't stall, but it does get jerky. Is that bad for the car? "

Jerky, yes... I don't know about being bad for the car except in the sense that any kind of violent jerking/whatever doesn't help your motor mounts for example.

Quote :

"OTOH, if you don't let it out fully and press on the gas, that increases wear as you said, right?"

on paper yes but who knows how that translates into a reduction in clutch life.

1/5/2011 7:14:00 PM

Quote :

"On a lot of OEM clutches, if you let the clutch out just right and you aren't going uphill you can actually get the engine going without having to give it gas."

That's the 1st time I have heard that!

Let me make sure I understand this: You are saying it is possible to have the car at complete rest, in 1st gear, and not have the clutch pressed in at all (and of course, no other pedal)?

If so, that's magic to me! I always thought at rest with the engine on, either the trans has to be in neutral, or the clutch has to be pressed on. I will try it 1st thing in the morning!

1/5/2011 7:26:51 PM

^ yes, you can, very easy to do on a downhill or level ground.

for a guy who posts tons of threads drooling over performance cars and their specs & numbers, its sad you dont know the basic mechanics of a manual transmission.

[Edited on January 5, 2011 at 7:33 PM. Reason : ]

1/5/2011 7:32:17 PM

No you can not have the pressure plate clamped (clutch pedal in the 'up' position) with the transmission in 1st gear with the car at rest. He is arguing with you over the phrasing. He knows any car with low end torque can be propelled from rest with a very slow release of the pressure plate.


At least i hope so.



[Edited on January 5, 2011 at 7:42 PM. Reason : .]

1/5/2011 7:39:19 PM

^ no I'm pretty sure he didn't realize that you can in some cases get a car moving just by letting out the clutch. and it will continue to move and not stall. it all depends on the situation though.

1/5/2011 8:12:44 PM

Quote :

"you can in some cases get a car moving just by letting out the clutch. and it will continue to move and not stall. it all depends on the situation though. "

This is a true statement.

1/5/2011 8:35:33 PM

You can indeed get a car going in first without applying throttle, at least on level ground and with gentle clutch release. It's easier on newer fuel injected cars because the ecm will compensate somewhat for the drop in the rpm with increased idle air solenoid pulse width.

Different drivers obviously have different styles, and different vehicles require different techniques. My personal technique is to go lightly on throttle application and smoothly commit the clutch as quickly as possible from a dead stop. Then, when full engagement is accomplished, I will gag the hell out of the throttle. This is pure habit for me: just about all upshifts are done double-clutched, and I roll into the throttle after full engagement. Of course, during aggressive driving, I also attempt to match engine speed to tranny speed with a feathered throttle pedal during upshifts so shifts occur more smoothly with less driveline shock.

I've managed to go 182k miles on the original clutch and what feels like plenty more to go. My dad and I do pretty much the same thing. He got over 275k on his truck before I replaced the clutch.

Finesse over the brute-force method, combined with driving with attention to detail. you can still go fast and not hurt shit.

1/5/2011 9:00:43 PM

A very common way to learn manual is to let the clutch out without using gas and get the car moving. It makes sure you are familiar with exactly where the friction point on the clutch is and it forces you to concentrate on that. I also think it minimizes clutch burning because the flywheel isn't spinning as fast as you engage the clutch (although I guess you spend more time slipping it so you don't stall out the car). I have taught several people to use a manual on my cars using this method and never had them do any damage to my clutches.

1/5/2011 10:05:02 PM

When I teach people how to drive stick from the beginning I always have them give it a little bit of gas. I find it's easier for them to transition into going up hills or creeping out of a space in a parking lot.

1/5/2011 10:22:18 PM

I've always wondered if a Z06 or ZR1 could get a car rolling with no gas in say...3rd gear.

1/5/2011 10:44:44 PM

What are you wondering about? The answer is yes.

1/5/2011 10:58:08 PM

Quote :

" Not always. On a lot of OEM clutches, if you let the clutch out just right and you aren't going uphill you can actually get the engine going without having to give it gas. It has to do with what kind of torque the engine makes down low, the weight of the flywheel, etc."

it's really fun to freak people out by ghost riding manual transmission cars.

1/6/2011 12:26:11 AM

^^ yeah that wasn't the most well put together sentence.

I've wondered whether or not they could start in 3rd/4th gear, and get themselves rolling by releasing the clutch while applying no gas whatsoever.

If you understood that was what I was asking, do you actually no that for a fact?

1/6/2011 11:22:38 AM

With no gas? No idea.

Hell both of my jeeps I could release the clutch with no gas and get up to 25ish going through the gears with no gas

But I'm sure if you slipped the clutch long enough in third you could completely release it eventually. Is it a bad idea yep but it could be done.

1/6/2011 11:37:50 AM

Unless you abuse the clutch on purpose, the only real wear on the clutch occurs during starting from 1st gear. Once the car is going there is very very minimal wear on the clutch in between say 2-6th gear shifts.

I usually double clutch on downshifts and always use brakes rather than engine to reduce the speed (e.g. slowing down for a red light)

[Edited on January 6, 2011 at 1:04 PM. Reason : f]

1/6/2011 1:03:00 PM

Quote :

"I've wondered whether or not they could start in 3rd/4th gear, and get themselves rolling by releasing the clutch while applying no gas whatsoever. If you understood that was what I was asking, do you actually no that for a fact?"

I'm assuming you are joking. Of course you can. I can do it in an S2000 with all 3 hamster foot lbs.

1/6/2011 1:36:59 PM

^ Really? In third gear? The s2k? Wow.

The only car I have really ever bothered to mess around with this practice in was the M3. I've always known it's possible, but to what degree I have always been somewhat ignorant.

1/6/2011 1:44:52 PM

Yes. You feather the contact between the disk and the flywheel/pressure plate for long enough and you will roll. I got to 15mph and stopped.

1/6/2011 1:51:06 PM

Since the S2000 popped into discussion here I have a question (that I think I already know the answer to).

All S2000's MY 2006+ have a clutch delay valve. I'm guessing this is to prevent damage to the drivetrain? Does the CDV cause excessive wear on the clutch? When I'm driving aggressively (mainly at track days) I notice a significant delay (revs hang) before full clutch engagement when making fast shifts at redline in 3rd, 4th and occasionally 5th gear. Besides slowing down my forward momentum a little bit I can't help but think that accelerates the wear of my clutch?

I've heard of people removing the CDV but my car's under warranty for another 70k miles so I'm reluctant to do that.

[Edited on January 6, 2011 at 2:05 PM. Reason : ?]

1/6/2011 2:02:50 PM

2005 as well. Just slow down your shifts. Thats what I have learned to do. Not a huge deal.

1/6/2011 2:10:25 PM

I guess I got my MYs confused.

As long as it doesn't hurt anything I don't care. Not like the S2000 can lay a strip on the 1-2 shift anyway

1/6/2011 2:12:58 PM

That was kind of the conclusion I came to as well .

1/6/2011 2:15:33 PM

TKE,

97+ m3s also have CDV. They usually put it in cars to prevent drivetrain wear. For most people who drive manual transmission well, CDV will make shifts jerky and wear out the clutch earlier. I suggest taking it out. It will make your shifts much smoother and you’ll be able to shift as fast as your feet move and not wait. It’s a common mod to take out the CDV.

1/6/2011 3:10:42 PM

^tell me about it. It makes me looks like some newbie learning how to drive a manual. The car would jerks like crazy when I'm shifting from 1st to 2nd.

1/6/2011 3:24:47 PM

hgtran,

You are probably getting the infamous M-clunk if you shift at low revs from 1st to 2nd in addition to CDV garbage. If it sounds like your diff and driveshaft are clunking that’s what it is. Some say they had since car was new, others swear it is fixable. In reality nobody knows what is causing it and what is the fix. Highly retarded!

I personally think it is the worn out center driveshaft bushing, but haven't got around to change it.

[Edited on January 6, 2011 at 3:30 PM. Reason : f]

1/6/2011 3:27:32 PM

If I remove it will it void my warranty?

It's not really a great feeling to upshift into 5th at 100 mph and see the tach hover at 7000 rpm for a second or two after I've already fully released the clutch.

[Edited on January 6, 2011 at 4:35 PM. Reason : 0]

1/6/2011 4:34:56 PM

^^^^ Fucking CDV mother fucker. That's why I never fucking felt right driving the M3. I could never ever shift as smoothly as I have in any other fucking car. I adapted after a while in the M3. One day might dad was in the passenger seat and he asked me why my shifts were taking so long. Piece of shit CDV.

1/6/2011 4:41:02 PM

I have never driven a manual

1/6/2011 4:41:21 PM

It's cool bro...your literary tastes make up for it.

1/6/2011 4:44:56 PM

^haha i know. it is interesting that BMW decided not to put CDV in E39 M5.

[Edited on January 6, 2011 at 4:46 PM. Reason : f]

1/6/2011 4:45:55 PM

Which is why they are so awesome at burnouts! Lol

Yeah I hate that tech is ruining the mt too.

1/6/2011 5:12:26 PM

a small restrictor in a hydralic line isnt much as far as "tech" is concerned.

TKE, just take a zen moment and relax between changes!

1/6/2011 5:34:40 PM

for what it's worth the first car I bought and learned to drive stick on was a 95 Civic EX, and it's transmission is still going strong, although I have moved on to a newer, bigger manual transmission sedan

1/6/2011 6:26:27 PM