from execution.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/15/texas.death.row.hate.crime/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Really touching.

White supremacist went on a killing spree after 9/11, shooting 3 people, of whom 2 died and 1 survived. The one who survived is spearheading a campaign to save him from execution in a few days. He has even traveled to Europe to urge the European Parliament to formally request the US to commute it to life imprisonment.

Wow.

Quote :

"Bhuiyan believes that his attacker does not deserve to die and has created a website, http://www.worldwithouthate.org, to urge Texas to spare Stroman's life. "In order to live in a better and peaceful world, we need to break the cycle of hate and violence. I believe forgiveness is the best policy, which helps to break this cycle," he said, calling himself a victim of a hate crime. "I forgave Mark Stroman many years ago. I believe he was ignorant and not capable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did." Bhuiyan traveled this month to Paris to urge the European Parliament to step in and file a formal request for Texas to commute Stroman's sentence to life in prison."

[Edited on July 16, 2011 at 7:34 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2011 7:28:32 PM

It's good to see Texas is an equal opportunity executioner. White, Brown, Yellow, Black... don't matter they all fry!

7/16/2011 7:40:45 PM

No one's going to come between Texas and a good, old-fashioned execution.

7/16/2011 7:57:21 PM

Well that guy just turned the other cheek.

7/16/2011 9:14:54 PM

I know, I am very shocked and moved.

If I was in his shoes, I doubt I would have forgiven him, let alone start a global petition to save his life!

7/16/2011 9:25:59 PM

Man, I resent people so very well. I guess I understand that I shouldn't. You know, Jesus was awesome, and I am totally not him.

I feel like I kind of "get" it, but I just don't consider myself benevolent. It feels good to admit that sometimes. If a guy shoots me, I think I'd want him dead. And yes, it's because I'm not a good person.

7/16/2011 9:38:19 PM

Quote :

""In order to live in a better and peaceful world, we need to break the cycle of hate and violence. I believe forgiveness is the best policy, which helps to break this cycle," he said, calling himself a victim of a hate crime. "I forgave Mark Stroman many years ago. I believe he was ignorant and not capable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did.""

Awesome.

7/16/2011 10:06:00 PM

Quote :

"27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. "

7/16/2011 10:31:21 PM

Quote :

""I forgave Mark Stroman many years ago. I believe he was ignorant and not capable of distinguishing between right and wrong. Otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did.""

So just because he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, that excuses it? It seems touching at first that this guy would forgive his attacker, until you realize he's equating him with an animal that attacks a person because it doesn't know any better.

7/17/2011 12:07:43 AM

^ i'm not sure he was just saying "oh wellz" about it.. just that he really thinks the guy was that freakin ignorant. it certainly isn't an excuse so much as what he likes to think was the problem.

i'd have a lot harder time letting go of it myself though, to be completely honest.

7/17/2011 12:21:45 AM

A lot of victims and victims' families fight against the death penalty.

This is great and all.

But it's kinda weird to gush about how touched and moved and shocked you are by the situation....

7/17/2011 2:25:28 AM

"weird"...?

are you drunk again?

i am sorry i am a human, which means unexpected extraordinary acts of kindness touch, move, and shock me.

7/17/2011 5:43:59 AM

Quote :

"But it's kinda weird to gush about how touched and moved and shocked you are by the situation...."

What? No it's not.

Quote :

"are you drunk again?"

7/17/2011 8:08:46 AM

Quote :

"But it's kinda weird to gush about how touched and moved and shocked you are by the situation...."

The normal reaction to any sort of murder case on TWW (or attempted murder, or hell, practically any violent crime) is an echo chamber of people trying to 1-up each other on "what they'd do" to the killer. Given the normal hyper-violent revenge fantasies, I think it's a good sign that people are gushing over an act of mercy, forgiveness, and understanding.

7/17/2011 9:21:04 AM

I think I figured it out. According to her, victims trying to save their failed killers (who did succeed in killing 2 others) from being executed SHOULD be the normal thing to do. (because death penalty is wrong blah blah blah)

So, the situation I posted about, is just... normal. Weird would be the victim wanting death for the killer.

I don't want this thread to become a death penalty debate... there are other threads for it.

I just wanted to post an awesome human story where everybody would expect one thing (he would push for his execution), but the exact opposite is happening (not only is he not happy with it, he is trying to stop it). And I personally, am truly humbled and in a way 'humiliated' by his actions (using 'humiliated' in a positive sense), because I know that were I in his shoes...

I doubt I would have forgiven him, let alone start a global petition to save his life!

7/17/2011 9:33:04 AM

Quote :

"The normal reaction to any sort of murder case on TWW (or attempted murder, or hell, practically any violent crime) is an echo chamber of people trying to 1-up each other on "what they'd do" to the killer. Given the normal hyper-violent revenge fantasies, I think it's a good sign that people are gushing over an act of mercy, forgiveness, and understanding."

Yeah, actually I take back my previous post. It is very weird that a thread in the TSB is full of compassion.

7/17/2011 10:00:25 AM

It doesn't matter what the victim wants. Society has spoken.

If the victim wants to save their attacker then they will need to convince society to save all attackers, not just theirs.

7/17/2011 11:24:49 AM

I guess I'm saying that you're all silly for thinking this is so unexpected and amazing. Victims' families against the death penalty is like one of many compelling arguments against the practice and shit. And compassion from a victim shouldn't be amazing.

Y'all remember that drunk dude who plowed through those other drunk people that were standing around in the middle of the street? The family like openly forgave him and raised money to send him to rehab.


Anyway, building this guy up to be some kinda of saint (you're humbled/humiliated by him? seriously?) is ridiculous...and pretty obvious. He's not amazing for doing something you wouldn't do...you're just a jerk.

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 11:37 AM. Reason : Friendlier word!]

7/17/2011 11:31:14 AM

What the fuck are you going on about? Nothing wrong with praising the guy for being compassionate. You act like it would be easy to just forgive someone who tried to kill you and left you blind in one eye. Like you're going to immediately say "Oh it's cool, I'm sure you didn't mean it". We hope to be as forgiving in a similar situation, and I'm pretty sure I would be, but you can't know for sure unless you experience it yourself. It's easy to trivialize the situation from behind your keyboard, but don't even pretend you can imagine the flow emotions that went through this guy's head over the years.

You're right in saying that compassion from a victim shouldn't be amazing, but in the world we live in, it is. We should praise and encourage acts of tremendous kindness.

Quote :

"Victims' families against the death penalty is like one of many compelling arguments against the practice and shit"

Yeah, but it doesn't happen very often, percentage-wise.

7/17/2011 12:31:27 PM

Quote :

"Victims' families against the death penalty is like one of many compelling arguments against the practice and shit."

Huh? This suggests that in the past when families more frequently demanded revenge that the death penalty was morally permissible. I suggest you rethink your position.

7/17/2011 12:39:21 PM

I think BridgetSPK is simply trying to call 0EPII1 a pussy for apparently being reduced to tears.

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2011 12:50:20 PM

Quote :

"So just because he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, that excuses it? It seems touching at first that this guy would forgive his attacker, until you realize he's equating him with an animal that attacks a person because it doesn't know any better."

A person with a fucked up upbringing will do fucked up things. In that sense, humans aren't much different than animals. Neglect a dog or let his natural aggression go unchecked, and he's going to be a problem as he gets older. The same goes for people. I feel lucky that I was raised by parents that taught me to respect other people, and more generally, that violence is something used only in self-defense. However, I also understand that I am not inherently superior to most of my peers, and if I (for whatever reason) ended up a different situation growing up, I could have become one of these assholes.

7/17/2011 1:41:07 PM

i say fry'em

7/17/2011 2:03:16 PM

Quote :

"McDanger: Huh? This suggests that in the past when families more frequently demanded revenge that the death penalty was morally permissible. I suggest you rethink your position."

I didn't say it was a compelling moral argument against the death penalty. And the "and shit" part at the end of that sentence is supposed to indicate laziness and a lack of caring on my part.

A Tanzarian is correct. Most of the comments in this thread read like a conversation I'd overhear two fat ladies having in the checkout line. It turns my stomach and makes me roll my eyes at the same time.

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 2:55 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2011 2:40:05 PM

Trying to figure out the response you imagine to be appropriate. Now it's not enough to progress? One has to additionally be as jaded as you now as well? What are you, the hipster of activism?

7/17/2011 2:55:24 PM

BridgetSPK = Britta from Community.

7/17/2011 3:42:29 PM

AHA, actually Britta would be the one to blather about how moved and touched she is by this man's amazing show of compassion.

^^Trying to figure out why you're bothering to respond to me.

7/17/2011 4:39:27 PM

Just curious what's making you tick on this issue

Is that okay, or do I need to 100% agree with you before I can address you?

7/17/2011 4:40:59 PM

It isn't special or amazing.

Elevating this crap to amazing practically excuses typical, crappy behavior.

Generally, people who get touched and moved by shit are annoying, and the annoying stuff is especially annoying, considering the changes they experience typically only last about as long as they are "touched."

And, most importantly, OEPII1 is a douche bag.

I take it all back. I love all you guys, and I celebrate this man's extraordinary compassion!

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 5:23 PM. Reason : WOOT WOOT!]

7/17/2011 5:01:09 PM

DERP

7/17/2011 5:28:35 PM

Good for this guy. I applaud his compassion, forgiveness, and the effort he's making to save his assailant.

I'm pretty sure I'd still want to kill that motherfucker, and I think that's perfectly OK, too.

7/17/2011 6:16:24 PM

Aww, jeez, we're gonna "applaud" it, too?

Come on, y'all are killing me here!

7/17/2011 6:46:14 PM

^

Quote :

"Trying to figure out the response you imagine to be appropriate."

Quote :

"Generally, people who get touched and moved by shit are annoying, and the annoying stuff is especially annoying, considering the changes they experience typically only last about as long as they are "touched.""

Seriously, why are you posting your personal problems here?

7/17/2011 7:13:43 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb and try to speak for BridgetSPK again. I'm a little tipsy, so hopefully it works out.

Perhaps it bothers BridgetSPK that this sort of principled behavior is unusual enough to warrant commentary, tears and applause?

7/17/2011 7:21:07 PM

But it IS unusual enough to warrant applause. Her problem is that she is annoyed by people who are moved by things. Personal issues of a jaded person.

7/17/2011 7:44:13 PM

No, it's unusual to you:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=victims+opposed+to+death+penalty&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

And the fact that you guys are so moved by this stuff is annoying because it indicates that you may be: stupid/unaware or that your expectations for amazing are really low.

7/17/2011 7:53:31 PM

Quote :

"No, it's unusual to you: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=victims+opposed+to+death+penalty&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 And the fact that you guys are so moved by this stuff is annoying because it indicates that you may be: stupid/unaware or that your expectations for amazing are really low."

No, it's unusual in general. You're the only one in this thread who feels otherwise. The fact that an organization exists for it is completely irrelevant. It sounds like you've heard a few news stories and decided it happens all the time. Show me some statistics and I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong.

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 8:00 PM. Reason : lol, there are 10 whole stories on that organization's website]

7/17/2011 7:59:25 PM

I'm not sure that "principled behavior" is how I'd describe it. That implies that wanting to kill him is unprincipled.

7/17/2011 8:16:51 PM

^^I'm accustomed to being alone in my views and perceptions. Also, unless I screwed something up, that's a Google search I provded, not a link to a specific organization's website. And here's something that looks like statistics:

http://wcr.sonoma.edu/v12n1/Mowen.pdf

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 8:26 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2011 8:26:38 PM

Ugh Bridget, to be honest, you're coming across as an unhinged bitch here. Nobody gives a fuck how jaded your little activist brain is after all these years of already being with it, but when you react like this to people slowly forming and holding progressive positions, you don't discourage them like you have been. It's almost like you cherish being the only person around who thinks what you do because it distinguishes you; this kind of "I'm special" progressivism is hardly deeper than defining yourself via what you order at Starbucks.

7/17/2011 8:35:39 PM

AHA, that's the nicest thing that anybody has ever said about me.

7/17/2011 8:58:44 PM

Quote :

"I'm not sure that "principled behavior" is how I'd describe it. That implies that wanting to kill him is unprincipled."

I'm not trying to imply that.

I'm just saying that Bhuiyan has stood by his chosen beliefs (whether they be right or wrong is another thread) despite being in a situation where many (if not most) would abandon those beliefs in favor of revenge/justice/whatever.

It's easy to espouse some set of beliefs/ideals/principles when they're largely abstract and you don't really have to live them. It's quite another to be in Bhuiyan's situation.

If Bhuiyan were a country, I feel he would've taken a completly different tack than we (the US) did following 9/11.

[Edited on July 17, 2011 at 9:35 PM. Reason : I've said too much. Now BridgetSPK is going to call me a pussy. ]

7/17/2011 9:34:12 PM

I knew you were a pussy!

7/17/2011 10:02:24 PM

Quote :

"It's easy to espouse some set of beliefs/ideals/principles when they're largely abstract and you don't really have to live them. It's quite another to be in Bhuiyan's situation. "

But for all we know, it could be the most natural reaction to Bhuyian to show actual grace. It may be the harder instinct for him to demonstrate vengeance.

You can't assume everyone thinks the same...

7/18/2011 12:19:08 AM

Dude, I'm so glad you posted! Cause that's exactly what I've been feeling but I couldn't put words to it.

7/18/2011 12:29:31 AM

Ha

i'm naturally a patient, forgiving person, which makes me seem like a superhero to people who don't have this quality... in a twisted way, that is my hedonism...

7/18/2011 1:28:04 AM

The point I tried to make earlier is that it's impossible for you to know how you would feel in his situation. You might be a forgiving person now, but losing an eye and almost being killed may change that perspective.

For the record, I am also naturally a patient and forgiving person.

[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 2:33 AM. Reason : .]

7/18/2011 2:19:01 AM

Quote :

"But for all we know, it could be the most natural reaction to Bhuyian to show actual grace. It may be the harder instinct for him to demonstrate vengeance."

Bhuyian Job

7/18/2011 8:22:21 PM