Quote :

"[10 a.m. ET, 4 p.m. Oslo] An explosion rocked a part of central Oslo, Norway, on Friday, state TV reported. State TV broadcaster NRK said on its website that windows in several buildings had been blown out and people were in the street bleeding. News reports suggest the government building has been affected. [Update: 10:11 a.m. ET, 4: 11 p.m Oslo] A second blast was heard in central Oslo shortly after an initial explosion rocked the city, a reporter for Norwegian state broadcaster NRK told CNN Friday. Linda Reinholdsen said there was a state of confusion in the city and several government buildings were affected. [Update: 10:16 a.m. ET, 4:16 p.m. Oslo] At least one of the explosions happened near some government buildings, said Walter Gibbs, a journalist with Reuters. He said he saw eight injured people, including two or three with serious wounds and one who looked dead. Reuters reported that the prime minister was safe."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/?hpt=hp_t1

7/22/2011 12:21:34 PM

Honestly, it's one of two things:

1) Dubya's fault
2) Climate Change

7/22/2011 12:31:14 PM

My money is on a Christian Fundamentalist who didn't like how few Norwegians believe in God.

7/22/2011 12:33:54 PM

That didn't take long.

7/22/2011 12:42:11 PM

This asshole opened fire on 15-16yos because they were part of the "governing party."

7/22/2011 3:25:04 PM

from the tv:

"witnesses describe a blond nordic-looking man"

if that's true, most probably a christian right-winger. could still be a native who converted to [militant] islam.

also, bbc is saying no one has claimed responsibility for either attacks.

7/22/2011 7:38:47 PM

FoxNews reported the guy as being a Catholic. And, IIRC, some random Islamic group initially claimed responsibility, but it couldn't be verified and now seems suspect.

7/22/2011 7:47:22 PM

do they even allow muslims turrurists in norway?

[Edited on July 22, 2011 at 7:54 PM. Reason : whoopsie daisies]

7/22/2011 7:54:01 PM

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/07/christian-fundamentalist-charged-death-toll-norway-soars-past-90/40321/

Quote :

"The Norwegian police charged a 32-year-old man on Saturday, who was identified by the Norwegian media as Anders Behring Breivik. The photo above is a screen grab from his Facebook page, which has since been blocked. Breivik has been identified as a "Christian fundamentalist with right-wing connections," according to the Times, as well as with anti-Muslim views, according to multiple sources. This is what we do and don't know about Breivik so far: Religious views: According to the BBC, Breivik has a Facebook and Twitter account that he set up a mere few days ago on July 17, where he identifies himself as a Christian and a conservative. There are several reports of his anti-Muslim views. In a post in Norwegian in an online forum on December 2009, a user named Anders Behring Breivik claims there is not one country where Muslims have peacefully lived with non-Muslims, stating that instead it has had "catastrophic consequences" for non-Muslims. Political views: The Daily Mail reports that National police chief Sveinung Sponheim told public broadcaster NRK that the suspected gunman's internet postings "suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views, but if that was a motivation for the actual act remains to be seen." Furthermore, the Norwegian daily Verdens Gang quoted a friend as saying Breivik became a rightwing extremist in his late 20s. Frank Mersland, a journalist with FVN TV, says Breivik has been linked to the anti-immigration Progress party. He wrote to Guardian via email: The suspect, Anders Behring Breivik, has been tagged as a former member of the right winged political party Frp (Progress party). It's the second largest political party in Norway and their main issues are lower taxes and a much stricter policy on immigration. The Frp-leader, Siv Jensen, verified his membership on Norwegian TV2 a little while ago. Apart from his anti-immigration policies, the Daily Mail and Fox News report that Breivik also argued that socialism was breaking down traditions, culture, national identity and other societal structures and that this in turn made society weak and confused. Interests: Fox reports that according to his recently set-up Facebook page, Brevik claimed to be well read and a fan of Norwegian World War II hero Max Manus. He listed his favorite books as "The Trial" by Franz Kafka and "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by George Orwell, and his favorite television show as the serial killer show "Dexter." Among his other interests he listed founding and developing organizations, freemasonry, working, gaming, partying, and fitness. Guardian also notes that he was a fan of violent video games who, as some former neighbors told the Norwegian media, had sometimes been seen in "military-style" clothing. The sole tweet on his Twitter account was one by philosopher John Stuart Mill, that said, "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests." Education and employment: The BBC reports that Breivik is believed to have grown up in Oslo, and studied at the Oslo School of Management, which offers degrees and post-graduate courses. He later appears to have moved out of the city and established Breivik Geofarm, a company Norwegian media is describing as a farming sole proprietorship set up to cultivate vegetables, melons, roots, and tubers. However, Guardian posts that Breivik's earlier businesses were not much of a success, each one of them being dissolved after a short while after making a loss until he established his farm business in 2009 and moved out of Oslo. Personal life: Breivik described his relationship status as single, according to Fox. The Daily Mail writes that media reports in Norway described Breivik as a "loner," who lived with his mother in a wealthy suburb of west Oslo. Access to weapons and training: According to Guardian, Breivik was a hunter with two registered weapons, a Glock pistol and an automatic rifle, although CNN reports he also had a shotgun. The BBC adds that a supply company has come forward to say that it delivered six tons of fertilizer to Breivik's company in May -- an ingredient used in bomb-making. As for training, Breivik had no military background except for ordinary national service. According to CNN, he was exempt from Norway's mandatory military service and has not had any special military training. Additionally, he has no criminal record other than traffic violations, apparently. Motive and method: What we don't know about Breivik is motive. Guardian reports that one target of Breivik's anger was former Norwegian prime minister, Gro Harlem Brundtland -- a member of Norway's Labour Party -- who had spoken to the youth camp on Utøya the day before the massacre. However, it is unknown whether or not that led him to the youth camp. Reports are that Breivik is cooperating with police and wants to explain himself. It is also unknown whether he had accomplices. Norwegian daily VG has interviewed witnesses of the Utøya shooting who believe there was a second gunman. According to Norwegian media sources, a second man was arrested who had a knife on him. Guardian translates that when asked by reporters why he was armed, the man said, "because there are so many weird people here. I do not trust anyone. " He had dark hair and smiled as he was led into the police car, according to TV2."

[Edited on July 23, 2011 at 12:05 PM. Reason : Sounds like a Teabagger.]

7/23/2011 12:04:28 PM

Quote :

"A Facebook page under Breivik's name was taken down late Friday. A Twitter account under his name had only one Tweet, on July 17, loosely citing English philosopher John Stuart Mill: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests.""

I guess he wanted to prove that 1 man can do as much damage as 100,000 men.

7/23/2011 12:29:40 PM

Max prison time in Norway is 21 years

For a guy who just killed like 80 kids

7/23/2011 12:30:44 PM

Quote :

" Norwegian daily VG has interviewed witnesses of the Utøya shooting who believe there was a second gunman. According to Norwegian media sources, a second man was arrested who had a knife on him. The Guardian translates that when asked by reporters why he was armed, the man said, "because there are so many weird people here. I do not trust anyone. " He had dark hair and smiled as he was led into the police car, according to TV2"

I understand they have to take all precautions but arresting a guy with a knife at mass shooting? It doesn't say how big a knife though... so it may not be as absurd as it sounds.

7/23/2011 12:53:25 PM

Quote :

"because there are so many weird people here. I do not trust anyone. "

Before the incident, was this statement even legitimate? With the crime rate so low?

7/23/2011 3:03:50 PM

so... kdogg(c) was super right?

that's really impressive

There might of been only two answers really, but the rest of the world was going Muslim.

7/23/2011 4:12:43 PM

Looks like OEP was spot on about this.

7/23/2011 4:33:46 PM

Let's just make sure to note that his superstitious beliefs had nothing to do with this though. Even if he wasn't religious I'm sure he would have found some excuse to kill people.

7/23/2011 4:37:15 PM

I wonder if the media will refer to this as the terrorism that it is. Seeing remarkably little play for the good old T-word.

7/23/2011 4:49:33 PM

^no no no. Brown Muslims are terrorists. If the attacker is a White-christian, it's the work of one deranged/sick/psychotic individual.


Get your double standards in order, man.

7/23/2011 5:22:01 PM

They'll probably spin it as far-right terrorism. For this gentleman, the religious angle appears to be secondary compared to a general dislike for the brown people flooding into and reproducing in his lily-white Europe.

7/23/2011 7:34:07 PM

Quote :

"so... kdogg(c) was super right?"

Nah semi right.

It was a white christian guy but it wasn't at all about "how few Norwegians believe in God"

7/23/2011 9:05:05 PM

How do you take someone like that into custody?

how do you NOT shoot him on site?

7/23/2011 9:32:25 PM

^^^that would be like "spinning" the ELF as "far-left terrorism"

7/23/2011 9:44:14 PM

damnable christofasctists

7/24/2011 1:42:57 AM

^^^ what's the magic number of dead people before law and order goes out the window?

[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 1:43 AM. Reason : arrow]

7/24/2011 1:43:29 AM

Quote :

"^no no no. Brown Muslims are terrorists. If the attacker is a White-christian, it's the work of one deranged/sick/psychotic individual. Get your double standards in order, man."

True!

What that guy did IS terrorism, albeit, not religious terrorism. It is political terrorism, plain and simple. He has probably very seriously shaken and permanently damaged the Norwegian psyche, and his acts might have repercussions during the next few election cycles.

7/24/2011 8:08:34 AM

The conservative response to this is obviously going to be hypocritical. It will be interesting, though, to see how liberals respond.

We're told by folks like Glenn Greenwald, for example, that Islamist terrorism is the logical result of the US military presence in the Middle East. So the logical remedy, then, would be to simply withdraw our forces. I wonder if this reasoning will hold up now that Christians are murdering innocent people in Norway because of that country's multicultural and immigration-friendly policies.

The other thing to look for, and which has already been brought up here, is whether liberals will be as willing to exonerate religion when the crimes are being carried out by Christians as they are when violence is carried out in the name of Islam. It seems OEP is at least being consistent here: Religiously motivated terrorism has nothing to do with religion, ever, you see.

Edit: That last point assumes he is, as the few press reports I've read suggest, that this guy is indeed a Christian extremist. It's possible he wasn't. Fascism is as likely to come from nationalism and/or half-baked race theories as it is from religion.

[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2011 12:41:53 PM

Quote :

"Edit: That last point assumes he is, as the few press reports I've read suggest, that this guy is indeed a Christian extremist. It's possible he wasn't. Fascism is as likely to come from nationalism and/or half-baked race theories as it is from religion."

That is interesting. It would be interesting to try to find out if he would have resorted to the same actions if the brown people coming into his country were not mostly Muslims, but say, mostly Hindus or Sikhs or Zoroastrians. If he wouldn't have, then his actions could be labeled religious terrorism.

If he still would have, then that could mean one of 2 things, he is simply anti-immigration, or anti-non-Christian religions (religious terrorism). What if the immigrants were brown Christians? If he still would have, then he is simply anti-immigration, or a white supremacist. And what if the immigrants were white Christians? If he still would have then he is just anti-immigration, albeit, to a fanatical degree.

Of course, we will never know, because only he knows the answers to those hypotheticals.


[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 1:49 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2011 1:49:13 PM

Quote :

"July 24 (Bloomberg) -- Online postings from Anders Behring Breivik, detained by Norwegian police for killing 93 people in a shooting rampage and bombing, offer a portrait of a man obsessed with what he views as the threat of multiculturalism and Islam. In a 1,500-page English manifesto posted hours before the killings, Breivik, 32, describes nine years of planning the attacks and his vision for revolution in Europe led by the Knights Templar. Breivik has a picture posted of himself in a Freemason outfit on the Facebook page bearing his name. In the document entitled "2083 - A European Declaration of Independence," which Breivik began writing while he was still a member of Norway's opposition Progress Party, he describes how the attacks would form part of a crusade against "cultural Marxism" and the rising "Islamization" of Europe. He writes that the massacre would serve as a tool to market the manifesto. While Breivik has confessed to the killings in what was the Nordic nation's deadliest incident since World War II, he has not pleaded guilty, Sveinung Sponheim, Oslo's acting police chief, said at a press conference today. "He said he believed his actions were atrocious, but in his head they were necessary," Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norway's TV2. Search Operations Police declined to speculate on a motive for the July 22 attacks that left at 86 people dead at a youth camp being held by Norway's ruling Labor party on Utoeya island 40 kilometers (25 miles) from Oslo and seven dead in a car bomb blast that occurred in the government district of the capital. About 97 people were injured in the attacks, of whom 67 were from the island shootings, Sponheim said today. The death toll may rise as search operations for the victims continue in the waters of Utoeya and in the government buildings. Breivik will appear in court tomorrow to be officially charged in the killings and will be allowed to speak, the police said. Breivik intends to explain himself at the hearing, Lippestad told national broadcaster NRK. He could receive 21 years in prison, Norway's toughest punishment, Deputy Oslo Police Chief Roger Andresen said yesterday. The suspect has no previous record of criminal offenses, Andresen said. In a Feb. 17, 2010, posting on Norwegian website Document.no, Breivik wrote that "the problem is that it often doesn't help that 80 percent of Muslims are so-called 'moderates,' i.e. that they ignore the Koran. It takes very few people to crash a plane." He added that "for me it would be hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differently." Progress Party Breivik became a member of the anti-immigrant Progress Party, Norway's second biggest, in 1999 and paid his membership fees until 2004, party spokesman Mazyar Keshvari said in an e- mail yesterday. Breivik was also a member of the party's youth movement from 1997 to 2007, acting as deputy chairman for one of the local Oslo chapters. Breivik on his Facebook page lists John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty," George Orwell's "1984" and Franz Kafka's "The Trial" among his favorite books. "World of Warcraft" and "Modern Warfare" were his preferred video games. Most of his postings, the last of which was on July 18, relate to music videos. "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests," said the single posting on a Twitter account bearing Breivik's name, made on July 17, paraphrasing Mill, an English philosopher and economist. Norway Mourns Breivik has said he acted alone and there are currently no other suspects in the case, police said. Authorities said they were still working to determine whether that's true. Hundreds overflowed onto the streets outside Oslo Cathedral today, as the country's leaders and royal family arrived in motorcades and placed flowers outside before entering a packed memorial service. Police cordoned off onlookers and well- wishers, as others not able to get a glimpse of the proceedings watched televised feeds through shop windows. Sitting on the front row of the service, Norway's King Harald V and Queen Sonja wiped tears from their eyes. "Today we are mourning," an emotional Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg told the congregation. "Each and every one of those who've left us is a tragedy. Together, it's a national tragedy. You should know that we are crying with you, we feel for you." Standing outside the cathedral before a sea of flowers and candles, people hugged each other and cried. "I feel like they are my kids," Solange Jonassen, 41, said standing outside the cathedral, just before leaving a bouquet of flowers. "They need all the support possible, and that's why I'm here." Beslan Breivik posted a four-part video summarizing his manifesto on YouTube. The chapters are titled "The Rise of Cultural Marxism," "Islamic Colonization," "Hope," and "New Beginning." 2083 refers to the year a new European identity will emerge. The video, which featured pictures of Breivik in military uniform and pointing an assault rifle in a wet suit, has since been removed. "You cannot defeat Islamization or halt/reverse the Islamic colonization of Western Europe without first removing the political doctrines manifested through multiculturalism/cultural Marxism," Breivik writes in his manifesto. "Multiculturalism equals the unilateral destruction of Western culture." The attacks on the country that hosts the Nobel Peace Prize were the deadliest in Europe since about 350 people were massacred at a school in Beslan, Russia, in 2004. Breivik's rampage on the island lasted 90 minutes, during which he called on the youth to come to him for police protection, before shooting them point-blank. Evil World The suspect, who was using a pistol and an automatic machinegun, surrendered without any resistance when he was finally approached by special police forces, Sponheim said. The suspect, who was wearing a fake police uniform when arrested on the island, was not a police officer, authorities said. "We have in Europe our problems with migration and people may try, because they are unhappy and unsuccessful themselves, to make this the cause of their own failures," Bo Huldt, a professor in security policy at the Stockholm-based National Defense College, said by telephone today. "He would say this is an evil world and somebody has to straighten it out and I am one of those," Huldt said. On his Facebook page, Breivik identified himself as single. He attended Oslo Handelsgym, a business high school on Oslo's westside and said in a posting on Document.no, which publishes political analysis articles, that he studied economics and earned his first million kroner ($185,000) as an entrepreneur at the age of 24. Father The suspect owns a farm in the small eastern town of Rena, which is listed as Breivik Geofarm on his Facebook page. Breivik bought 6 tons of fertilizer in May, Jan Kollsgaard, a director at agricultural supply company Felleskjoepet, said yesterday. Breivik's father, who lives in the south of France and had not been in contact with his son since 1995, sent an e-mail to the newspaper Verdens Gang expressing his "deep sorrow and horror over what has happened" and asking media to leave him in peace with his "despair and sorrow," the paper reported today. "Warmth is being sent to us from all corners of the world," Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere said at a separate remembrance service held for the families of the Utoeya victims today. "You are not alone. We're the foundation on which you can lean on. Friday's events will take an entire future to understand." "

"Multiculturalism equals the unilateral destruction of Western culture."

The interesting thing is that there are two groups who think this quote is basically correct, but who believe it for completely different reasons.

For conservatives, "multiculturalism" and "Western culture" simply translate to "non-Christian" and "Christian."

But then there is a small group of liberals, such as myself, who mean something quite different. When we criticize multiculturalism, we are pointing out the tendency of many moderates and liberals to make the foolish conclusion that all cultures are equal - that it's all relative to a person's preferences. Accordingly, it is not possible (in fact, it is bigoted) to say that a culture that keeps its women as house slaves is no worse than a culture that treats women as equals to men. We reject this as a very high form of intellectual dishonesty that entails disastrous consequences.

So, when we say "Western culture" (though we're more likely to use terms that acknowledge the universality of our beliefs), we're talking about things like democracy and freedom and human rights. We're even talking about open-minded multiculturalism, just not empty-minded cultural relativism. So, in that sense, the "multiculturalism" as understood by most liberals (especially in Europe) really is a threat to "Western culture," as it denies us the ability to even claim that freedom is better than tyranny.

[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 3:01 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2011 2:45:31 PM

Quote :

"We're told by folks like Glenn Greenwald, for example, that Islamist terrorism is the logical result of the US military presence in the Middle East. So the logical remedy, then, would be to simply withdraw our forces. I wonder if this reasoning will hold up now that Christians are murdering innocent people in Norway because of that country's multicultural and immigration-friendly policies."

I'm not an avid Gleen Greenwald follower, but I'm pretty sure his views are somewhat more nuanced than your interpretation of them.

Quote :

"The other thing to look for, and which has already been brought up here, is whether liberals will be as willing to exonerate religion when the crimes are being carried out by Christians as they are when violence is carried out in the name of Islam. It seems OEP is at least being consistent here: Religiously motivated terrorism has nothing to do with religion, ever, you see."

There is a distinct difference between crimes carried out by [practitioners of religion], and crimes carried out in the name of [religion].

In any case, I think you misinterpret the standard liberal view (such as it is). Islam is not a Jim Jones cult. Our country shouldn't be banning mosques, fighting the 'threat' of Sharia, or generally condemning Islam based on the actions of a few. That in no way excuses al-Qaeda or any other terrorist organization from being a general nuisance to the world.

Quote :

"But then there is a small group of liberals, such as myself, who mean something quite different. When we criticize multiculturalism, we are pointing out the tendency of many moderates and liberals to make the foolish conclusion that all cultures are equal - that it's all relative to a person's preferences."

Suck your own dick much? There's so much condescension in that post that it's condensing on my screen.

Quote :

"Accordingly, it is not possible (in fact, it is bigoted) to say that a culture that keeps its women as house slaves is no worse than a culture that treats women as equals to men. We reject this as a very high form of intellectual dishonesty that entails disastrous consequences."

Wrong. Individual human rights are not trumped by cultural norms. I know of no self-respecting liberal who will tell you otherwise.

[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 4:08 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2011 4:05:59 PM

I don't think most liberals are self-respecting. I think they're generally willing to sacrifice their principles (such as international human rights) for more domestic (basically, partisan) victories. And generally the way they justify that is to blame people like me of cultural imperialism.

Quote :

"Our country shouldn't be banning mosques, fighting the 'threat' of Sharia, or generally condemning Islam based on the actions of a few."

I don't think we should be banning mosques. I think fighting Sharia would be an absolute necessity were such a threat to exist - but I would agree that it doesn't, at least in the US. There is plenty to condemn about Islam, whose foundational text is a bloodthirsty, tribal, superstitious document that probably surpasses anything imagined by Jim Jones. That said, I do think it's ridiculous to deny the fact that Islamist groups derive their ideology from the Koran and centuries of Islamic philosophy.

[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 4:42 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2011 4:21:34 PM

An Interview with a Madman: Breivik Asks and Answers His Own Questions
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2084895,00.html

Quote :

"What tipped the scales for you? What particular things pushed you to plan the attack? For me personally it was our government's involvement (engagement) with/in the attack on Serbia (NATO bombing in 1999) several years ago. It was completely unacceptable the way the U.S. and Western European regimes bombed our Serbian brothers."

You know, this is exactly the same sort of shit McVeigh pulled. He claimed he was getting back for Waco. Yea... you had nothing to do with Waco and your response is to kill government employees who also had nothing to do with Waco.

In both cases, I think these assholes just wanted to blow some shit up.

7/24/2011 7:23:42 PM

Quote :

"I don't think most liberals are self-respecting. I think they're generally willing to sacrifice their principles (such as international human rights) for more domestic (basically, partisan) victories. And generally the way they justify that is to blame people like me of cultural imperialism."

Human rights only exist in other countries? Domestic interests are purely partisan in nature? Domestic governance should take a back seat to foreign interventions? You'll have to explain how attention to domestic issues is a bad thing.

Allegations of cultural imperialism crop up when you act with no clear threat, no clear goal, no clear plan and self-interest as the most obvious motivation. Unfortunately, 'War on Terrorism', 'they need freedom' and 'spread democracy' fit none of those things.

Quote :

"That said, I do think it's ridiculous to deny the fact that Islamist groups derive their ideology from the Koran and centuries of Islamic philosophy."

An entire religion should be condemned because of the interpretations of the few?

7/24/2011 8:35:18 PM

Tired ofreading that this guy is a Christian fundamentalist. He isn't.

He is an ethno-nationalist / xenophobe who happens to be Christian. His manifesto rants against multiculturalism, Marxism and particularly Muslims, but his arguments are all about protecting Nordic culture and heritage, not spreading the word of God or any other crazy religious motivations. I know it's fun to attack fundies, but trying to lump this guy in with Jihadists is a false equivalence. He's also not an "extreme right-winger". He is a fucking psycho, like Jared Loughner.

7/24/2011 10:20:32 PM

Right, and osama bin laden isn't a muslim extremist.

7/24/2011 11:22:19 PM

Quote :

"You'll have to explain how attention to domestic issues is a bad thing."

When a common refrain among liberals is "We spend X dollars building schools in Afghanistan when we ought to be spending that money on schools in the US!" I think its fair to say that liberals have betrayed their supposed concern for human rights and have moved into full partisan sloganeering mode.

Quote :

"Allegations of cultural imperialism crop up when you act with no clear threat, no clear goal, no clear plan and self-interest as the most obvious motivation."

Funny, the charge of cultural imperialism is usually conveyed to me followed by assurances that Muslims secretly love dictatorship and either despise or cannot comprehend democracy, and so who are we to help them achieve something they either don't want or are too stupid to make use of?

[Edited on July 24, 2011 at 11:27 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2011 11:26:45 PM

Quote :

"Right, and osama bin laden isn't a muslim extremist."

Osama Bin Laden was an Islamic extremist because he endorsed and carried out Jihad which is explicitly mentioned within the Koran. If you're going to claim this guy was a Christian extremist then you better be ready to try and cite only the OT. You could call him a Jewish extremist, though that would also be misguided, but to call him a fundamental Christian extremist, is wrong. How can one be a fundamental Christian extremist while fundamentally ignoring all the facets of Christianity?

7/24/2011 11:44:44 PM

Quote :

" How can one be a fundamental Christian extremist while fundamentally ignoring all the facets of Christianity?"

LOL

Muslims would argue that bin laden was ignoring the facets of Islam too.

Seems like a convenient double standard for Christians to use.

" 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "

7/25/2011 1:55:02 AM

Quote :

"Right, and osama bin laden isn't a muslim extremist."

Funny, I seem to remember Osama's Fatwa being chock-full of religious zealotry, ranting and raving about holy lands, Allah, Muhammad and the like.

Now let's examine a few snippets from Breivik's manifesto:

Quote :

"I’m not going to pretend I’m a very religious person as that would be a lie. I’ve always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment. In the past, I remember I used to think; “Religion is a crutch for weak people. What is the point in believing in a higher power if you have confidence in yourself!? Pathetic.” Perhaps this is true for many cases. Religion is a crutch for many weak people and many embrace religion for self serving reasons as a source for drawing mental strength (to feed their weak emotional state f example during illness, death, poverty etc.). Since I am not a hypocrite, I’ll say directly that this is my agenda as well."

Quote :

"As this is a cultural war, our definition of being a Christian does not necessarily constitute that you are required to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus. Being a Christian can mean many things; That you believe in and want to protect Europe's Christian cultural heritage. The European cultural heritage, our norms (moral codes and social structures included), our traditions and our modern political systems are based on Christianity – Protestantism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and the legacy of the European enlightenment (reason is the primary source and legitimacy for authority). It is not required that you have a personal relationship with God or Jesus in order to fight for our Christian cultural heritage and the European way. In many ways, our modern societies and European secularism is a result of European Christendom and the enlightenment. It is therefore essential to understand the difference between a 'Christian fundamentalist theocracy' (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want). So no, you don't need to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus to fight for our Christian cultural heritage. It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy (Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter)). The PCCTS, Knights Templar is therefore not a religious organisation but rather a Christian 'culturalist' military order."

http://www.wnd.com/files/2011/07/2083manifesto.pdf

I'll say again, this guy is a xenophobic nationalist. He views Christianity as a set of cultural norms. He wasn't motivated by religious fundamentalism but rather intense narcissism and hatred of all things infringing on his Nordic European heritage and culture. And yet at the same time, he rants against Nazis. The dude is a real piece of work. But much like Timothy McVeigh, he has been miscast as a Christian fundamentalist nutjob. He's just a plain-old nutjob.


[Edited on July 25, 2011 at 3:45 AM. Reason : 2]

7/25/2011 3:40:10 AM

7/25/2011 7:24:28 AM

Quote :

"Right-Wing Pundits Jumped To Blame Muslims And ‘Jihadists’ For Norway Attacks By Ali Gharib and Travis Waldron on Jul 23, 2011 at 2:44 pm The Washington Post's Jennifer Rubin When news began to unfold on Friday of the terror attacks in Norway that has left more than 90 dead, many blogs and Twitter accounts immediately lit up with speculation about who was behind the massive bombings in Oslo and the subsequent attack on a youth camp 20 miles away. But some pundits, mostly right-wing neoconservatives, proclaimed that this bore all the hallmarks of Islamic terrorism, even going so far as to draw policy prescriptions. At the Washington Post, normally a well-respected news outlet, Jennifer Rubin quoted the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies‘ Thomas Joscelyn and AEI scholar Gary Schmitt to say that the attacks were the result of Islamic terrorism. She then concluded the “jihadist” attack on Oslo means the U.S. shouldn’t cut military spending: "This is a sobering reminder for those who think it’s too expensive to wage a war against jihadists. [...] Some irresponsible lawmakers on both sides of the aisle…would have us believe that enormous defense cuts would not affect our national security. Obama would have us believe that al-Qaeda is almost caput and that we can wrap up things in Afghanistan. All of these are rationalizations for doing something very rash, namely curbing our ability to defend the United States and our allies in a very dangerous world." The Wall Street Journal, meanwhile, rushed up an editorial Friday, blaming “jidhadists” for the attacks and exclaiming, “Norway is targeted for being true to Western norms”: "…in jihadist eyes, [Norway] will always remain guilty of being what it is: a liberal nation committed to freedom of speech and conscience, equality between the sexes, representative democracy, and every other freedom that defines the West. For being true to those ideals, Norwegians have now been asked to pay a terrible price." As more information came out about the attacks and the attacker, the WSJ rewrote the online version of the editorial, albeit by removing any trace of the above paragraph. Instead, it mentioned that it had falsely attributed the attacks to jihadists and called the attacker an al Qaeda “copycat.”"

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/23/277310/wapos-jen-rubin-wsj-right-wing-pundits-jumped-to-blame-muslims-and-jihadists-for-norway-attacks/

7/25/2011 12:11:36 PM

What kind of assholes send their kids to a political party summer camp? At least let them turn 18 before you start trying to brainwash them. Baldy should have shot the parents.

7/25/2011 3:13:29 PM

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"Muslims would argue that bin laden was ignoring the facets of Islam too."

It's not a double standard, it's kind of hard to argue when your Holy Book says go out and kill the infidels so that you can have favor in heaven, and if you don't do it then god is going to get angry with you.

Quote :

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ""

Oh wow, so this is your argument. Ok, I'll accept that if you are exceedingly blind to the rest of the Bible you can justify slaughter, though that is a very poor example. But the Bible doesn't have a concurrent theme of going out and killing infidels for Jihad running through the New Testament. This passage has nothing to do with physical war on Earth.

7/25/2011 3:19:12 PM

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"It's not a double standard, it's kind of hard to argue when your Holy Book says go out and kill the infidels so that you can have favor in heaven, and if you don't do it then god is going to get angry with you."

except the Koran doesn't say that. the verse you're trying to quote out of context was revealed during a period of war. your "interpretation" directly conflicts with verses that actually condemn murder

7/25/2011 3:42:01 PM

You're right smc this thread isn't about that, let's not make it that.

[Edited on July 25, 2011 at 5:25 PM. Reason : ]

7/25/2011 5:21:39 PM

When you guys argue about which religion is worse the terrorists win.

7/25/2011 5:23:26 PM

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"The other thing to look for, and which has already been brought up here, is whether liberals will be as willing to exonerate religion when the crimes are being carried out by Christians as they are when violence is carried out in the name of Islam."

Of course not. Liberals will look to crucify and damn all Christians for this random guy with only a terse connection to the religion. The NYT is calling him a "Christian extremist," as did the article linked above. It's kind of absurd, as this guy didn't go out declaring some holy crusade. He just went out saying "I hate Muslims!" If it can be shown that he hated them as a result of religion, that's one thing. But I would have expected the press to have found anything like that by now

7/25/2011 9:25:56 PM

Surprise surprise, the killer was a religious wingnut. I have a question. Try and imagine the most liberal left-wing person you can imagine, then try and think of a logical pathway that would lead one to commit horrible acts such as this d-bag in Norway. I can't fathom it.

Religion and right-wing politics clearly provide an infrastructure for such radicals to emerge.

7/26/2011 10:59:41 PM

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"Try and imagine the most liberal left-wing person you can imagine, then try and think of a logical pathway that would lead one to commit horrible acts such as this d-bag in Norway. I can't fathom it. "

No need to imagine. The world outside the United States at various times in the 20th century was wracked by socialist and communist terrorists killing in the name of the revolution.

7/26/2011 11:26:55 PM

Quote :

"Surprise surprise, the killer was a religious wingnut."

where the hell did you see this? NOWHERE has his religion played any part of this. WHere the FUCK are you getting that he was a religious wingnut? PLEASE give a fucking source so we can eviscerate it.

7/26/2011 11:38:05 PM

Well, he is pretty obviously a wingnut.

7/26/2011 11:42:33 PM