Not sure if there's been much on the local news about it, since I live in SC, but they've been talking on NPR about the NC legislature considering giving surviving victims of eugenics and forced sterilizations in NC $50k each as an effort to "make ammends" for what happened. WHy the fuck are we not arresting the fuckers that actually did this? THAT would be the first step in "making ammends" for so blatantly violating people's basic rights.

The people that should be put in jail are:
the doctors who did this. no excuse for performing medical procedures on the unwilling. at a bare minimum, their medical licenses should be revoked.
the social workers who went along with this and actually picked people out.
the politicians who enacted and pushed this. i don't know that I'd go so far as to prosecute people who simply voted for it, but those who actively pushed this and thought it was a good idea should burn in hell rot in prison.

I don't care how old any of the actors in this are. prosecute the hell out of them.

1/11/2012 2:15:26 PM

the $50,000 payout is a slap in the face

1/11/2012 2:20:12 PM

I've been studying these nazis on Western Blvd for years. To me, reparations aren't as important as prison time for any doctors or administrators still alive, all of whom were allowed to retire comfortably.

I'm almost afraid for this to rise back into the political zeitgeist though, because I'm sure there are republicans that would still favor it. For example, "you can only get welfare benefits if you submit to sterilization."

[Edited on January 11, 2012 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2012 2:32:13 PM

most of the people involved in this are dead. Its a shame it took 30+ years for this to get mainstream attention.

and some of the comments on articles about this from wral are

1/11/2012 2:49:14 PM

Like I said, it's almost better that this be a dark, forgotten secret rather than give the savages among us any ideas.

I shall paraphrase and summarize the WRAL comments, in order from top to bottom:

Quote :

" Gimme Gimme Gimme they just keep asking for more will never be satisfied. Forced sterilization is preferrable to abortion I had a similar procedure for medical reasons I should sue! These people will try to fake sterilization to get the money. China does this why don't we invade them? This is the fault of No Child Left Behind. If they get reparations we should get them for the land the carpetbagging yankees stole! We should give these people orphans as repayment. Problem solved! This happened way back in the 1970's. We aren't responsible for the sins of our ancestors. We should delay the payout until more of them die out. "

That's page 1. As a troll I clearly have a lot to learn. It feels like that time I visited the slaughterhouse as a child.

[Edited on January 11, 2012 at 3:03 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2012 2:51:32 PM

Quote :

"For example, "you can only get welfare benefits if you submit to sterilization.""

and even that isn't as bad as "we are going to sterilize you against your will." At least in your scenario people get a choice

1/11/2012 3:05:23 PM

We should start a voluntary live organ donation program in exchange for government benefits.

How am I doing?

1/11/2012 3:09:48 PM

Quote :

"This happened way back in the 1970's. We aren't responsible for the sins of our ancestors."

This is another flaw of government. Some bureaucrat does some atrocious shit, now the taxpayer is responsible for making amends. I don't think so.

1/11/2012 3:12:23 PM

^ i mean, I understand your resistance, and I have it, too, but there's such a thing as damages, and these people most certainly suffered them. Maybe the taxpayers should be on the hook for gross violations of people's rights so that they won't elect fuckers who will do it. but there certainly shouldn't be reparations if the idiots who did this don't go to jail

1/11/2012 3:43:28 PM

There are no links in this thread.

And I don't know what happened.

1/11/2012 4:22:18 PM

Up until the 1970's, doctors in North Carolina and dozens of other states could order you to be castrated or sterilized, without any legal review or recourse. Typically these people had mental problems and many of the sterilizations took place at Dorthea Dix down the street. However, the criteria for sterilization was very broad, and it could happen for reasons as silly as "promiscuity" or miscegenation. As you might expect, the victims were all poor and disproportionately black(they would be sterilized at St. Agnes Hospital, located on the campus of St. Augustine college in raleigh). The aim of the program was obviously to reduce unwanted and undesirable pregnancies in the poor population, with undertones of improving the human race. The ideas of the eugenics movement date to the 1800's, and the Nazis were the most famous executors of the policy. The US Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell specifically permits the practice of sterilizing criminals and the "feeble-minded", and was in fact cited by Nazis for their defense at the Nuremberg trials.

[Edited on January 11, 2012 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2012 4:44:01 PM

oh, I thought this was like some clandestine organization that operated outside the law.

It sounds like the doctors were given this authority and the government allowed it.

Being government means never having to say you're sorry.

1/11/2012 4:48:37 PM

Quote :

"clandestine organization that operated outside the law."

Kind of like a Castration A-Team...a castrAtion-Team, if you will.

1/11/2012 4:52:28 PM

The later supreme court decision Skinner v. Oklahoma banned the sterilization of criminals, but still permitted sterilizing the mentally ill.

The last of 65,000 forced sterilizations in America occurred in 1981.

[Edited on January 11, 2012 at 4:59 PM. Reason : .]

1/11/2012 4:56:31 PM

that is the most informative and sensible post smc has ever had. keep it up!

1/11/2012 5:15:52 PM

Sounds like a waste of money for something that happened 30 years ago.

1/11/2012 5:16:55 PM

so, fuck it, right? we fucked over some people for no reason, no need to hold anyone accountable?

1/11/2012 5:20:14 PM

Who is "we"?

Various branches of the U.S. federal and state governments have fucked over a whole lot of people in a whole lot of ways. Best way to make amends is to reverse policy. I'm not willing to take responsibility for some shit I didn't do, though. The guilty should pay, and that's that.

[Edited on January 11, 2012 at 5:30 PM. Reason : ]

1/11/2012 5:28:42 PM

the state of NC? would it make you happy if I said "they", instead? It was done under the auspices and direction of the gov't. Thus, the people are, at some level, responsible.

1/11/2012 5:30:21 PM

Quote :

"For example, "you can only get welfare benefits if you submit to sterilization.""

Well it would end the "cycle of poverty" if you couldn't have children ...

1/11/2012 9:45:59 PM

Quote :

" The guilty should pay, and that's that"

But we are the guilty. We (the people) voted for candidates that would write and support these policies. We supported an environment where the idea of forced sterilization was allowed to gain traction.

You seem to be under the impression that each individual action of the gov. happens in a vacuum, and the flick of a switch, and is entirely isolated from every other. This isn't the case.

In a democracy, the government IS the people, and it's the people that are responsible for this.

1/11/2012 11:07:27 PM

Quote :

"I'm almost afraid for this to rise back into the political zeitgeist though, because I'm sure there are republicans that would still favor it. For example, "you can only get welfare benefits if you submit to sterilization.""

I hate to break this to you, but eugenics have always been touted by the progressive left.

[Edited on January 12, 2012 at 12:16 AM. Reason : .]

1/12/2012 12:15:59 AM

I don't know why any of you are bothering to argue with d357r0y3r. He will respond that he has not agreed to any "social contract" by which he consents to the government (both as an institution and the people involved in it), and therefore has no responsibility for anything that the government does. And there's really nothing you can say to a person who renounces the authority and legitimacy of his own government, except maybe that he's a coward for not actively attempting to overthrow it.

(Though, for all I know, he may be attempting to do precisely that and is just bad at it. Can't blame him, though. Imagine what a cabal of his sort would be like. "Why do I have to pay dues to contribute to buying the fertilizer and renting the van? I voted against the plan to blow up the courthouse. I said we should blow up the DMV. I'm not going to pay for something I didn't vote for. If the courthouse deserves to get blown up, I'm sure the free market will handle it.")

---

Other than that, I don't see anything to disagree with in this thread. Pay a settlement to those affected and hang everybody who was involved and is still breathing. I wouldn't be completely opposed to desecrating the remains of the ones who have already died, but it isn't a dealbreaker or anything.

1/12/2012 3:10:30 AM

Quote :

"But we are the guilty. We (the people) voted for candidates that would write and support these policies. We supported an environment where the idea of forced sterilization was allowed to gain traction."

It's certainly reasonable to argue that "we" are not guilty since I don't think a single person in this thread was voting in the 1970's. As a rule we don't allow the sins of the father to be paid for by the sons in this country. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing who voted for these things, so we can't punish the voters. Certainly we can (and should) put away all of the people involved that we can identify, from the politicians, to the judges to the doctors, and perhaps they should be then on the hook to the state to make up for this compensation. But these people clearly deserve something for having their right to self violated in this way, and this crime was perpetrated by the government of north carolina which is still in control today. So I don't see a better way of handling this really. Ideally I'd love to see the people involved jailed and their property and possessions seized and sold to pay for their reparations.

1/12/2012 8:07:50 AM

No amount of facepalms can do WRAL Golo comments justice. The only thing reading them does is erode any remaining faith in humanity that you had left.

1/12/2012 10:03:59 AM

can somebody define "Forced Sterilization"

were these people just rounding up women and kidnapping them?? ha

if so, time to gtfo out of nc!! now i know where some of you got your genetic 'logic' from. ha

1/12/2012 10:22:44 AM

"I don't see the problem here"

1/12/2012 11:52:41 AM

Quote :

"so, fuck it, right? we fucked over some people for no reason, no need to hold anyone accountable? "

Except for the fact that those being held accountable are tax-payers who will end up footing the bill. Many of whom were
in diapers or not even born when this happened. If the victims want to hold someone accountable then go after and prosecute
if they exist those responsible. Don't shake it out of the state budget that is already being stretched thin.

Quote :

"But we are the guilty. We (the people) voted for candidates that would write and support these policies. We supported an environment where the idea of forced sterilization was allowed to gain traction. "

Sorry, I did not vote for this or these people in 1981.

Quote :

"For example, "you can only get welfare benefits if you submit to sterilization"

I don't see a problem with this. Afterall you are voluntarily accepting benefits.

1/12/2012 12:09:46 PM

Quote :

"can somebody define "Forced Sterilization""

this is an older article (I caught the airing backin Nov) but it points out how the women were in the hospital for treatment (labor etc.) and the doctors just gave their patients, with their knowing in this case, hysterectomies with the approval of the state.

http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/07/8640744-victims-speak-out-about-north-carolina-sterilization-program-which-targeted-women-young-girls-and-blacks

Quote :

"Elaine Riddick was 13 years old when she got pregnant after being raped by a neighbor in Winfall, N.C., in 1967. The state ordered that immediately after giving birth, she should be sterilized. Doctors cut and tied off her fallopian tubes. “I have to carry these scars with me. I have to live with this for the rest of my life,” she said. Riddick was never told what was happening. “Got to the hospital and they put me in a room and that’s all I remember, that’s all I remember,” she said. “When I woke up, I woke up with bandages on my stomach.” Riddick’s records reveal that a five-person state eugenics board in Raleigh had approved a recommendation that she be sterilized. The records label Riddick as “feebleminded” and “promiscuous.” They said her schoolwork was poor and that she “does not get along well with others.” “I was raped by a perpetrator [who was never charged] and then I was raped by the state of North Carolina. They took something from me both times,” she said. “The state of North Carolina, they took something so dearly from me, something that was God given.” It wouldn’t be until Riddick was 19, married and wanting more children, that she’d learn she was incapable of having any more babies. A doctor in New York where she was living at the time told her that she’d been sterilized. “Butchered. The doctor used that word… I didn’t understand what she meant when she said I had been butchered,” Riddick said. North Carolina was one of 31 states to have a government run eugenics program. By the 1960s, tens of thousands of Americans were sterilized as a result of these programs. Eugenics was a scientific theory that grew in popularity during the 1920s. Eugenicists believed that poverty, promiscuity and alcoholism were traits that were inherited. To eliminate those society ills and improve society’s gene pool, proponents of the theory argued that those that exhibited the traits should be sterilized. Some of America’s wealthiest citizens of the time were eugenicists including Dr. Clarence Gamble of the Procter and Gamble fortune and James Hanes of the hosiery company. Hanes helped found the Human Betterment League which promoted the cause of eugenicists. It began as a way to control welfare spending on poor white women and men, but over time, North Carolina shifted focus, targeting more women and more blacks than whites. A third of the sterilizations performed in North Carolina were done on girls under the age of 18. Some were as young as nine years old. For the past eight years, North Carolina lawmakers have been working to find a way to compensate those involuntarily sterilized in the state between 1929 and 1974. During that time period, 7,600 people were sterilized in North Carolina. Of those who were sterilized, 85 percent of the victims were female and 40 percent were non-white. “You can’t rewind a watch or rewrite history. You just have to go forward and that’s what we’re trying to do in North Carolina,” said Governor Beverly Perdue in an exclusive interview with NBC News. While North Carolina’s eugenics board was disbanded in 1977, the law allowing involuntary sterilization wasn’t officially repealed until 2003. In 2002, the state issued an apology to those who had been sterilized, but the victims have yet to receive any financial compensation, medical care or counseling from the state. Since 2003, three task forces have been created to determine a way to compensate the victims. Officials estimate that as many as 2,000 victims are still alive. Riddick was one of several victims to speak at a public hearing this summer. It was the first time that many survivors had told their stories publicly and that others heard of North Carolina’s tarnished past. “To think about folks who went in…and their doctor told them this was birth control and they were sterilized…the folks who didn’t have the capacity to make the decisions, the uninformed consent,” said Perdue. “Those types of stories aren’t good for America and I can’t allow for this period in history to be forgotten, that’s why this work is important.” Only 48 victims have been matched with their records, something necessary for them to eventually be compensated. State Representative Larry Womble has been advocating for the survivors of the state’s sterilization program for nearly 10 years. He helped fight for the repeal of the state’s law. Womble said that if the government is “powerful enough to perpetrate this on this society, they ought to be responsible, step up to the plate and compensate.” In August, a task force created by Gov. Perdue recommended that the victims be compensated, but they were unsure how much to award the victims. Previous numbers pondered range between $20,000 and $50,000. The task force also recommended mental health services for living victims and a traveling museum exhibit about North Carolina’s eugenics program. Perdue said it’s a challenge to determine how much money each victim should be given. “From my perspective, and as a woman, and as the governor of this state, this is not about the money. There isn’t enough money in the world to pay these people for what has been done to them, but money is part of the equation,” she said. Riddick once sued North Carolina for a million dollars. Her case made it all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States, but the court declined to hear the case. “I would like for the state of North Carolina to right what they wronged with me,” she said. Some victims and their advocates have questioned whether North Carolina is procrastinating in compensating them, hoping they’ll die before a solution is reached. “It’s an ugly chapter in North Carolina’s book, we have a wonderful book, but there’s an ugly chapter,” Womble said. “We must step up to the plate and we must realize and take responsibility.” Perdue, for her part, said that she is committed to helping the victims. “I want this solved on my watch. I want there to be completion. I want the whole discussion to end and there be action for these folks. There is nobody in North Carolina who is waiting for anybody to die,” Gov. Perdue said. Despite the state social workers who declared Riddick was “mentally retarded” and “promiscuous”, she went to college and raised the son born moments before she was sterilized. Her son is devoted to his mother and a successful entrepreneur. Elaine is proud of her achievements. “I don’t know where I would be if I listened to the state of North Carolina,” she said."

1/12/2012 12:29:40 PM

Quote :

"Except for the fact that those being held accountable are tax-payers who will end up footing the bill. Many of whom were in diapers or not even born when this happened."

And part of the point is to remind us, today, how stupid and terrible this shit was so that hopefully we won't be so damned shortsighted. Would you argue that a corporation today shouldn't have to pay to clean up its actions from 30 years ago on account of the people in charge and the shareholders being different?

Quote :

"If the victims want to hold someone accountable then go after and prosecute if they exist those responsible"

we absolutely should prosecute.

1/12/2012 12:59:50 PM

the doctors who preformed these should NOT be prosecuted... it was legal and approved of by the state. (not saying it was RIGHT but not illegal.)


and current taxpayers should not be held responsible. This shit happened before most of us WERE taxpayers.

[Edited on January 12, 2012 at 1:56 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2012 1:54:39 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

1/12/2012 2:08:52 PM

is that a north carolina state law?

and still, one could argue they were attempting to help these folks who would be worse off having kids to raise.

1/12/2012 2:14:56 PM

I don't know if they should be prosecuted, but they should lose their medical license if any of them still practice. And should be open to lawsuits.

1/12/2012 2:23:36 PM

the hell they shouldn't be prosecuted. Seems to me like a basic rule for doctors is "Don't perform operations on people who did not actually consent to said operation." Fuck them if they can't follow that basic rule. The "I was following orders shit" doesn't apply to a doctor in the US who had every opportunity to say "fuck off, that's immoral"

1/12/2012 2:35:49 PM

Quote :

"I don't know why any of you are bothering to argue with d357r0y3r. He will respond that he has not agreed to any "social contract" by which he consents to the government (both as an institution and the people involved in it), and therefore has no responsibility for anything that the government does. And there's really nothing you can say to a person who renounces the authority and legitimacy of his own government, except maybe that he's a coward for not actively attempting to overthrow it."

I'm actively trying to change it. Overthrowing the U.S. government isn't possible or desirable, and I'm not suicidal. I'm more interested in changing minds. I've had success in that area and will continue to have success, because the ideas appeal to a lot of people. The only lasting revolution will have to be education-based, not rooted in violence.

1/12/2012 2:47:06 PM

Quote :

"and still, one could argue they were attempting to help these folks who would be worse off having kids to raise."

1/12/2012 3:03:06 PM

^I said "one" could argue... not that I believe that.

Quote :

"the hell they shouldn't be prosecuted. Seems to me like a basic rule for doctors is "Don't perform operations on people who did not actually consent to said operation." Fuck them if they can't follow that basic rule. The "I was following orders shit" doesn't apply to a doctor in the US who had every opportunity to say "fuck off, that's immoral""

they did not break the law at the time, therefore they shouldn't be at risk for prosecution. I'm not saying what they did was "right" but no law was broken.

[Edited on January 12, 2012 at 3:04 PM. Reason : ]

1/12/2012 3:04:02 PM

and the leaders in Nazi germany weren't breaking any laws in their nation at the time when they exterminated millions of Jews. Yet we still prosecuted them after the war. I understand your point, and I'm not particularly down with ex-post-facto laws, but I imagine there must have been some law at the time that tended to say "doctors can't operate on people without their consent."

1/12/2012 3:08:25 PM

Quote :

"they did not break the law at the time, therefore they shouldn't be at risk for prosecution."

In a narrow sense, it wasn't against the law, but I suspect you could find something actionable there -- civil rights violation, for example.

1/13/2012 12:26:58 PM

What is there to prosecute for? They were obeying the laws of the State of North Carolina and as such are untouchable.

We just can't go back in time and make what they did illegal. That would violate the fundamental basis of Due Process.

1/13/2012 12:32:15 PM

Quote :

"and the leaders in Nazi germany weren't breaking any laws in their nation at the time when they exterminated millions of Jews."

1/13/2012 12:35:50 PM

#1 They weren't prosecuted for violating the laws of Germany. They were prosecuted for violating international laws of war.

#2 In many instances they were in violation of the laws of Germany

#3 After the initial spurt of activity, the allies eventually backed away from the prosecutions and executions.

#4 There was a lot of uneasiness involving those tribunals and as such, international treaties have been established to make crimes such as those punishable by the international community.

[Edited on January 13, 2012 at 12:41 PM. Reason : .]

1/13/2012 12:39:15 PM

and I understand your point, but you don't think there should be any punishment for people blatantly violating the rights of others in such a heinous way?

1/13/2012 12:52:58 PM

because they violated no laws as such they cannot be punished. The only outlet available is for the State to recompense the people who were the victims of the State's eugenic policies.

1/13/2012 12:59:40 PM

you'll forgive me if I think there is a basic law called "violating someone's civil rights" that we prosecute people for all the time that says you can't, well, you know, violate someone civil rights. And I'd say that cutting someone's reproductive organs out of their body or ordering someone else to do so is a violation of a person's civil rights

1/13/2012 1:02:30 PM

What law are they accused of violating and what criminal charge comes with it?

When people are accused of violating Civil Rights, it is largely a civil violation and not so much a criminal violation unless expressly stated as such.

[Edited on January 13, 2012 at 1:21 PM. Reason : .]

1/13/2012 1:11:03 PM

It would probably have to be a civil suit, but I imagine you could argue a violation of the 14th amendment and cite Skinner V. Oklahoma for some precedent.

1/13/2012 1:26:40 PM

A civil suit that would go no where on a lot of grounds. After all, the State has to authorize these payments, else wise the state would have immunity from having to pay anything.

1/13/2012 1:35:31 PM

set em up

1/13/2012 4:58:08 PM