How is there no Soap Box thread on this topic?

Black shoots Black: It's just gang violence
Black shoots White: It's everyday business and the criminal gets arrested.
White shoots Black: Completely neglecting the evidence that it may have been for self defense; Shit hits the fan. The race card comes out, the masses come out to protest, and Al Sharpton gets to jump on his soap box demanding for justice.


Is it just me or is every white and black crime purported by the media and assumed by the african american community to be racially charged until proven otherwise. I think there are interests at work that have incentive to keep the racial tension flames stoked (*cough Al Sharpton).


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/justice/florida-teen-zimmerman/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Specifically talking on this case the evidence....

- There was an altercation before Martin gets shot
- There is no evidence that Zimmerman is racist, on the contrary he is claimed to come from an ethnically diverse background.

3/23/2012 9:25:31 AM

"white latino"

3/23/2012 9:26:29 AM

Quote :

"- There was an altercation before Martin gets shot - There is no evidence that Zimmerman is racist, on the contrary he is claimed to come from an ethnically diverse background."

Listen to the 911 tapes. He mutters "fucking coon" and ignores the operators advice not to pursue the suspect. He also says "these assholes always get away" and he has called 911 over 50 times in the last year. Zimmerman also has a criminal background, being convicted of assaulting a police officer in 2005 and a separate domestic assault incident that was later settled.

The dude is messed up. Nancy Grace is silent because Trayvon Martin wasn't a pretty white girl.

3/23/2012 9:37:52 AM

This story is getting air time because it is easily sensationalized.

People get murdered. Every. Single. Day.
People get away with crime. Every. Single. Day.

The system is far from perfect. It never will be. Stories like this will always happen and get blown up.

Something needs to change about the ability of people with resources to dodge the law, while poor folk get the shaft.

3/23/2012 9:45:03 AM

He shot to death a man he knew was unarmed. At the very least it is involuntary manslaughter.

3/23/2012 9:47:03 AM

I can agree to the manslaughter charge.

3/23/2012 9:48:55 AM

I vote that of all the users on TWW, HUR be the LAST person permitted to create a thread on this or any related topic. Second?

3/23/2012 9:59:29 AM

So if I just blast some unarmed dude in the street, I can claim it was self-defense and the burden is on the state to prove me wrong?

This isn't a case where we aren't sure who the killer is. We know who the killer was, we just don't know the full circumstances. If the roles were reversed though, you can guar-damn-tee that the black kid would be sitting in jail right now.

One thing I will note is that this is tending to be framed as a middle aged, white upper class male shooting a black kid. It was actually a 26 year old latino guy. Shouldn't make a difference from a prosecution standpoint.

3/23/2012 10:15:18 AM

It has been interesting to see the evolution of the reaction and statements after it was revealed that Zimmerman is actually Hispanic and not stereotypical white as his name would imply. There feels like a deliberate attempt now to shift away from a straight up hate crime to more a "failure of policing" for the lack of arrest. Apparently, it's not racism or a hate crime if a Hispanic shoots a black person versus a white or Asian person.

I do have to agree that the stand your ground laws seem like pretty bad legislation, and I do also agree that had Mr. Martin been white and Mr. Zimmerman black, the police would probably have found some way to hold Mr. Martin or at least keep him under lock down.

3/23/2012 10:15:58 AM

this guy is still not arrested, no?

3/23/2012 10:21:30 AM

1) Zimmerman didn't know the kid was unarmed, so let's not act like he did.
2) The law in question isn't what's keeping the cops from doing anything about it. It's just the cops not giving a shit about a dead black kid. I mean, if they need to clarify the law to say that you can't stalk the person and then claim self-defense, fine, but this law really isn't an issue. it's just a convenient scapegoat

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason : ]

3/23/2012 10:28:07 AM

Oh man, who's gonna defend Zimmerman, I can't wait to see. pack_bryan? GeniusXBoy? Lonesnark? d3stroy3r?

edit: Okay faith restored in at least one individual


Also I think it's telling that the right's go-to talking point is "He's hispanic, not white!" which in itself demonstrates two things:

First, that conservatives still subscribe to the one-drop-rule, a half-hispanic half-white is still hispanic. This is, of course, stupid. Race is a social construct, not a genetic one. What matters is not the 'racial' content of Zimmerman's blood, but what he is perceived and treated as, just like a person who is 1/4 black and 3/4 will still be treated as "black" if he has darkish skin and a broad nose, with all the prejudices that entails.

Second, it's interesting conservatives always feel the need to defend against the racist white man stereotype, even when doing so exposes softer forms of racism (See first point). Touchy? Hypersensitive? Compensating for something?

Third, there is nothing "political" about this inherently, but I've seen very, very few left-wingers hop to Zimmerman's defense. On one side, it could be that leftists reflexively defend minorities, I'm sure the right wingers here agree. The flipside of that I need not write out, but it also helps that Zimmerman is taking the "stand your ground" defense, which is obviously politically incendiary.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 10:52 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 10:43:54 AM

Quote :

"So if I just blast some unarmed dude in the street, I can claim it was self-defense and the burden is on the state to prove me wrong?"

Yes. How else should it be? Should the state not be required to prove you committed murder before throwing you in jail for it?

Quote :

"Zimmerman didn't know the kid was unarmed, so let's not act like he did."

Any reasonable person would know that when someone else attacks you with groceries, they are not carrying a gun.

The "stand your ground" law is not bad law, it just re-frames the debate. Without this law any amount of force used to stand your ground is automatically excessive. With the law, the state now has to show the force he used was actually excessive. Which it seems to me it very much was.

3/23/2012 10:50:41 AM

I haven't read Florida's laws but I don't get how stalking/chasing somebody qualifies as standing your ground?

3/23/2012 10:54:22 AM

Quote :

"Black shoots White: It's everyday business and the criminal gets arrested. White shoots Black: Completely neglecting the evidence that it may have been for self defense; Shit hits the fan. The race card comes out, the masses come out to protest, and Al Sharpton gets to jump on his soap box demanding for justice."

If the criminal was arrested like in the former case all that stuff in the latter case wouldn't be necessary.

Also why is Zimmerman being part latino evidence he isn't racist against Black people?

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 10:58 AM. Reason : ]

3/23/2012 10:57:57 AM

why is zimmerman not being white still being portrayed as being white?

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:02 AM. Reason : -]

3/23/2012 11:01:51 AM

^^^http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

This would be the only part that could potentially apply (unless you want to argue this all occurred in Zimmerman's car):

Quote :

"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

So I guess this applies anywhere? The key is that Zimmerman needs to demonstrate a reasonable concern that he was going to be seriously harmed by a lightweight minor holding skittles. However, I'm not really sure Zimmerman was "standing his ground" per se. He was the one following.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason : lkj]

3/23/2012 11:02:53 AM

Quote :

"Any reasonable person would know that when someone else attacks you with groceries, they are not carrying a gun. "

Sure. but Zimmerman didn't know the kid was only packing groceries. Dude saw a black kid walking down the street and assumed he was a criminal, which is bad enough. let's not pile on and say that he also knew the kid was unarmed, except for a bag of skittles.

3/23/2012 11:03:44 AM

Any human being you have ever seen could be packing. Even they were fucking naked, they could have a box cutter up their ass.

3/23/2012 11:08:33 AM

Just for the record:

Latino != non-white

Quote :

"why is zimmerman not being white still being portrayed as being white?"

I can call him white and you can't correct me. It's not universally taken to be that way, and you can maintain that latino is not white. But as a whole, we don't have such a clear definition.

3/23/2012 11:11:39 AM

well lets ask him if he marks "white" or "hispanic" or "other" on every standardized form hes ever submitted, and then decide if the media needs to quit sensationalizing this shit further.

its already bad enough, and im appalled by this case, but id also rather not have my nerd ass dragged out of my car and stomped because of a bunch of incorrect talking heads.

3/23/2012 11:17:49 AM

Quote :

"why is zimmerman not being white still being portrayed as being white?"

Aaand the one-drop-rule rears it's head.

Neither latino nor hispanic are racial terms, it is possible to be either of these and also white. It depends on how you're viewed and treated by society around you, it's not a matter of your DNA or what you mark on the census form.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:20 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 11:19:01 AM

way to quickly threw the double play race card about a white girl. so soon? don't play all your ammo so fast next time.

3/23/2012 11:20:56 AM

welp. two ridiculously polarized and retarded posts in a row from a couple of my least favorite posters.

i guess ill revisit this topic in chit chat.

3/23/2012 11:23:24 AM

Yes you'll have a much easier time splitting hairs to avoid tarnishing the good reputation of the proud white race over there.

Quote :

"way to quickly threw the double play race card about a white girl. so soon? don't play all your ammo so fast next time."

Molly Bish. Carly Brucia. Rachel Cooke. Audrey Herron. Polly Klaas. Chandra Levy. Kristen Modafferi. Kimberley Pandelios. Laci Peterson. JonBenet Ramsey. Audrey Seiler. Dru Sjodin. Elizabeth Smart. Linda Sobek. Danielle van Dam. Brooke Wilberger.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:27 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 11:24:19 AM

Who's proud of the white race here? the killer was a latino. oh wait a 'white latino' lol


Don't worry your proud islamic black leader is promising revenge killings in return already:


Farrakhan from twitter: ‘WHERE THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE WILL BE NO PEACE…LAW OF RETALIATION MAY…BE APPLIED’

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:26 AM. Reason : -]

3/23/2012 11:26:24 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans

Quote :

"In the 2010 United States Census, 50.5 million Americans (16.3% of the total population) listed themselves as ethnically Hispanic or Latino. Of those, 53.0% (26.7 million) self-identified as racially white."

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 11:28:54 AM

exactly. somebody kills a black kid and its not just some crazy goon, it's gotta be the whole fucking white race master plan



don't worry though... revenge is coming though. so just be patient...

3/23/2012 11:30:20 AM

This is what you don't get pack_bryan, you can admit that there's a lot of racism among whites without condemning the entire white race. Some of us went through American History relating to abolitionists, not whining that the slavemasters got a bad rep.




vvvvvvvvvvvv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZERsNpe9Hcvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 11:33:37 AM

Quote :

"Listen to the 911 tapes. He mutters "fucking coon" and ignores the operators advice not to pursue the suspect. He also says "these assholes always get away" and he has called 911 over 50 times in the last year. Zimmerman also has a criminal background, being convicted of assaulting a police officer in 2005 and a separate domestic assault incident that was later settled."

Maybe I heard a shortened version or didn't listen well enough, but I don't recall hearing either of these things. I heard him say that "they always get away". Guess I should look this up again.

Welp, CNN's isolation surely sounds like he said the slur.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 11:40:30 AM

^^keep believing that. start your black vs white race war on your own time. i nor does anybody else give a fuck


everybody remember: it's...
(<-whites lol)

vs blacks.

all the way bro.


[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:49 AM. Reason : ,]

3/23/2012 11:46:12 AM

I think that by living in a gated neighborhood, owning a gun, being racist toward blacks, and being in a neighborhood watch, he already fits the stereotypical image of "white". If half of latinos consider themselves white, I'm guessing he's in that half. The fact that he's half European->US kind of white is just slathering the white on thicker.

So in retrospect, it's kind of amusing how people "correct" other people when they say it was a white killer or a white neighborhood.

But then again, in spite of the fact that half of latinos consider latinos (themselves) white, I doubt that whites consider latinos white with anywhere near that frequency, as evidenced by this "correction". So let's take a survey!

Q1: Are you white?
Q2: Are all latinos white?
Q3: Are some latinos white?

3/23/2012 11:56:16 AM

I guess I just have to lay out in the sun for a few hours and grow a mustache and I'm suddenly no longer white

Quote :

"start your black vs white race war on your own time. i nor does anybody else give a fuck"

I'm more interested in a non-racist whites vs. racist whites war but some people, like you can't, can't seem to separate the two. Hmmm....

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 12:03:09 PM

Quote :

"I vote that of all the users on TWW, HUR be the LAST person permitted to create a thread on this or any related topic. Second?"

gladly seconded

I check out the FoxNews.com comments section every couple of days for some laughs. articles like these are like blood in the water before a shark attack

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/23/obama-calls-florida-shooting-death-tragedy-says-his-son-would-look-like-trayvon/

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 12:59 PM. Reason : article]

3/23/2012 12:48:05 PM

Posted in the chit chat thread multiple times. I am outraged by this, but I don't believe it was race that caused the incident. I am outraged by the vigilantism of Zimmerman after being told not to continue following Trayvon, and the seeming incompetence of the Sanford PD in their investigation. Not that I think he should have been immediately arrested, but their handling of the case has been awful. I am sure the DA will bring a case against him, probably manslaughter.

3/23/2012 1:28:01 PM

"non-hispanic white" has been a choice on forms for years now.

I'm baffled why anyone is debating this...

It's almost like pointing out that 1 white-ish person might be racist means them all are? That's not what anyone's saying. There's been boat-loads (lol) of white people against what appears to be injustice in this case.

3/23/2012 1:35:28 PM

just do us a favor and let us know which you're going to kill as revenge for the crime...
white? white latino? white cracker hispanic? chink white? chink chinese? slavic white? hispanic dark white? extra crispy dark cajun dirty white?



[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 1:56 PM. Reason : -]

3/23/2012 1:42:58 PM

Quote :

"So if I just blast some unarmed dude in the street, I can claim it was self-defense and the burden is on the state to prove me wrong?"

Yes. That's pretty much how innocent until proven guilty works.

Quote :

"1) Zimmerman didn't know the kid was unarmed, so let's not act like he did. 2) The law in question isn't what's keeping the cops from doing anything about it. It's just the cops not giving a shit about a dead black kid. I mean, if they need to clarify the law to say that you can't stalk the person and then claim self-defense, fine, but this law really isn't an issue. it's just a convenient scapegoat"

This

Quote :

"First, that conservatives still subscribe to the one-drop-rule, a half-hispanic half-white is still hispanic. "

Please, this isn't a conservative thing, it's a damn American thing. It's not like liberal america is calling Obama America's 44th White President.

Quote :

"I haven't read Florida's laws but I don't get how stalking/chasing somebody qualifies as standing your ground?"

On a general level (not talking about the specifics of this case) it depends. A person should have the right to follow or confront a criminal. A person should have the right to detain a criminal. A person should have the right to defend themselves against an attack by a criminal up to and including lethal force if warranted. However, the key parts to all of that are "criminal". You don't have the right to follow or detain someone just because they look funny you have to be able to reasonably believe that the person has committed a crime. And while you do have a right to defend yourself against someone, you don't have a right to be the aggressor, so if you attack them, it's no longer defense.

Quote :

"Any human being you have ever seen could be packing. Even they were fucking naked, they could have a box cutter up their ass."

But not every person is attacking you. Part of the self defense law is a reasonable belief that you are in danger. So really this hinges on what happened in the altercation.

I think it's pretty reasonable to argue (from what little I've read on this) that Zimmerman had no reason to believe the kid he was following had committed a crime, therefore he didn't have a right to follow the kid, and didn't have a right to confront the kid.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 2:04 PM. Reason : ghd]

3/23/2012 2:01:51 PM

so what we're saying is if barack obama had killed this guy it's a white on black crime


now it all makes sense why he's still openly running operations and wars all over the middle east / africa /uganda/somalia/yemen/libya/afghanistan/iran/etc/etc/etc...

his true aryan blood is coming out and all he wants to do is fuck up black/islamic cultures




[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 2:19 PM. Reason : l]

3/23/2012 2:08:55 PM

Quote :

"Yes. That's pretty much how innocent until proven guilty works."

That would apply, if there were any question of whether or not Zimmerman were the killer. But, in this case, Zimmerman has confessed to the killing. Last time I checked, at least under our system, when you kill someone, you get arrested, questioned, and possibly charged. Why didn't that happen here?

3/23/2012 2:23:46 PM

good point. they should have arrested that teenage girl for shooting those intruders in her trailer back last year too when she was on the phone.

charge her with first degree murder and behead her for ___(insert any oppressed group)___ism . great point indeed.


guilty until proven innocent i always say.


[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 2:30 PM. Reason : |]

3/23/2012 2:28:04 PM

Bahaha pack_bryan doing his usual M.O.

A WHITE MAN BEING SLANDERED? BETTER REMIND EVERYONE HOW VIOLENT AND SAVAGE DARKIES ARE!

OH GOD THERE'S ONE OUTSIDE NOW, BETTER CALL 9/11 AND CHASE HIM DOWN BEFORE HE COMMITS A REVENGE KILLING!!

Quote :

"You don't have the right to follow or detain someone just because they look funny you have to be able to reasonably believe that the person has committed a crime."

Most States (not sure about Florida) require you to actually witness the crime, for the record.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 3:16:34 PM

3/23/2012 3:19:22 PM

^^^^ that's what's so absurd! how did the police NOT at least take him in for questioning??? it's almost unfathomable. well, until you realize it's north Florida, with likely some of the stupidest police chiefs in our nation responsible for things like this.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 3:21:49 PM

OFFICER of COURSE I was lynched him in self defense, he was walking down MY street at NIGHT and need I REMIND you of THIS! *shows police officer a Farrakhan tweet*

3/23/2012 3:25:52 PM

Quote :

"good point. they should have arrested that teenage girl for shooting those intruders in her trailer back last year too when she was on the phone. charge her with first degree murder and behead her for ___(insert any oppressed group)___ism . great point indeed. guilty until proven innocent i always say. "

I mean, I would imagine that they did bring her in for questioning. That's just the process. In that case, the 9-11 call confirms her story. In this instance, the 9-11 call doesn't confirm that it was in self-defense, only that the killer was indeed targeting the victim.

3/23/2012 3:37:14 PM

Yeah, typically when one person shoots one or more other people, they're at least brought in for questioning. You know, so the police can actually confirm it was in self defense and not a murder.

3/23/2012 3:43:15 PM

Quote :

"But not every person is attacking you. Part of the self defense law is a reasonable belief that you are in danger. So really this hinges on what happened in the altercation. I think it's pretty reasonable to argue (from what little I've read on this) that Zimmerman had no reason to believe the kid he was following had committed a crime, therefore he didn't have a right to follow the kid, and didn't have a right to confront the kid."

I'm with you. Why are we even talking about race? Because the stupid ass cops didn't do their job and people see that as racism? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think that's something we can know right now.

But if a guy calls 911, and has a history of calling 911 over frivolous matters, and ignores the 911 dispatchers orders not to pursue, and ends up standing next to a dead, unarmed kid that he never witnessed committing a crime that he admits he shot and killed... that's fucking murder. See how that's framed? Not one mention of race? Not one mention of race needs to be uttered to convict this asshole of murder. Was his crime racially motivated? Who the fuck cares? He killed a kid and he hasn't been charged with anything. That's fucked up. The only reason this is such a huge deal is because the stupid cops haven't done their jobs (racially motivated or not).

This is murder, plain and simple, race or no race. You can't follow people and kill them in the name of vigilantism and get away with it.

3/23/2012 4:03:00 PM

Omitting race from the framing does not mean race didn't play a part. Not only have the calls made it pretty fucking obvious that Zimmerman was motivated by racism, but the police in Tampa and that suburb in particular have a history of investigative rigor being lopsided along racial lines, something that statistics show is prevalent nationwide. Simply omitting these points of context, and deliberately restricting the framing in this way to avoid inconvenient discussion of racism in the US only serves to sweep those broader issues under the rug.

"Guys, all that happened here was a few people got together and lynched another person unlawfully, and the police didn't do their job because they're incompetent. That's it, no racism there, see? Nothing to see here, so stop pulling the race card!"

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 4:20 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 4:17:08 PM

I don't really see why race matters more than the fact that this guy murdered an unarmed kid. Race is probably a huge issue here and I'm inclined to believe it was, but I don't see why it's necessary to mention that almost-fact when the evidence for wrong-doing is already so compelling.

3/23/2012 4:25:31 PM