Is one supposed to tip them? I understand that they aer somewhere between a masseuse and a doctor on a large scale of things, but I'm not sure which compensation system applies to them. Also, how do I know if my insurance happen to cover such visits?

5/22/2012 2:50:48 AM

no.

5/22/2012 7:14:38 AM

To answer your original question, no.

To add to the discussion, I don't know why you go but I would go to my GP and make sure they're not doing more harm than good. I've not heard a lot of good things about chiropractors.

Finally, just call your insurance company and ask them. Then call again and ask someone else, repeatability is something you want to double check with insurance.

5/22/2012 7:14:54 AM

No, you do not tip them. They charge a crap ton for what they do and they're on the professional/medical side, so no tipping. If there is a masseuse on site and you get that service, then tip that person.

5/22/2012 8:15:22 AM

Chiropractors = witch doctors to the rest of the medical field.

5/22/2012 9:23:33 AM

That's because they are witch doctors. It's bullshit based off mysticism. Vertibral Subluxation was just made up and has no scientific basis.

V, Most people don't know the Traditional Chriopractic teaches that *EVERY* illness is caused by invisible misalignments in the spinal cords they call Vertibral Subluxations.

It's outright quackery. The whole field is based off of this bullshit, even if they've attempted to modernize or retrofit it with medical sounding jargon.

[Edited on May 22, 2012 at 9:34 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2012 9:31:32 AM

my SIL just told me that her chiropractor does adjustments on infants to break a fever.

WHAT THE FUCK

5/22/2012 9:31:38 AM

I don't know what your condition is, but why not go to a physical therapist? They can let you know whether or not massage is a good option, and also recommend exercises that will help.

5/22/2012 9:59:02 AM

Thanks guys! That's kind of the opinion I had about chiropractors in general. However, my wife gets soreness in the back muscles pretty often and she recently picked up a living social deal for a couple of introductory visits. Took her there this morning, informed her that she does not have to leave a tip, and told her not to sign up for anything long term. Keeping my fingers crossed

^that will be the next step if her problems continue

[Edited on May 22, 2012 at 10:03 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2012 10:01:59 AM

I go to the chiropractor once a month for adjustment. It's helped immensely in preventing migraines. Before I started going I was having insane headaches 2-3 a month, and since then I've had one in the past year.

5/22/2012 10:04:32 AM

Quote :

"picked up a living social deal for a couple of introductory visits"

Groupon, Living Social, and AmazonLocal have deals for massage therapy every week, so keep a lookout for that. To be honest, it's beneficial for nearly anyone to get massages, especially in the age of hunchbacks we live in.

5/22/2012 10:07:29 AM

I believe in the benefits of massage as a way of loosening/preventing scar tissue and stimulating blood flow to localized spots of tissue that may benefit from it.

Chiropractors just seem like quacks. Everyone I know who has frequented one talks about "misaligned ribs" and shit that just sounds made up. And if you miss a session or stop going they make a big deal about how you've ruined all the work they did and now they have to start at stage 1 again. What's the point if the benefits are so fleeting? Has anyone ever been permanently "cured" of a back ailment by a Chiro?

I'd love to send in a perfectly healthy person with no spine troubles whatsoever and see just how many problems the chiropractor can come up with.

[Edited on May 22, 2012 at 10:23 AM. Reason : s]

5/22/2012 10:21:47 AM

In my experience, there are now 2 types of chiropractors out there. There are your old school quacks that you guys are referring to who believe everything can be fixed with a crack of some sort, but there's also a "new breed" of them who deal more with flexibility, tensegrity, ART, and a bunch of other words like this. It's all to do with how your body is connected and what's causing a problem. For instance, I went in with a pretty sharp lower back pain and they determined that my hip flexors were so tight it was pulling my abdomen forward, causing my butt to stick out so my spine didn't sit right when I was sitting down (or anytime really) ... they did a couple of the traditional "adjustments" but also spent a lot of time stretching out my soaz (hip flexor) and gave me some stretching to do on my own. The pain was cleared up in a couple weeks and I haven't had an issue since.

5/22/2012 10:31:32 AM

It's not impossible to receive a benefit from visiting a quack. Thank you placebo effect and confirmation bias.

If you prefer that people working on your body actually practice medicine then go to a doctor. If you don't care, go to a chiropractor. I'd rather be accidentally killed by someone who knows what they're doing.

From the NC board of Chiropractic Examiners themselves:

Quote :

"C. It is within the chiropractic scope of practice to use diagnostic methods including but not limited to blood and urine evaluation, diagnostic imaging, electro-diagnostic studies, orthopedic and neurological examination, meridian procedures and nutritional deficit assessment. D. It is within the chiropractic scope of practice to use therapeutic procedures including but not limited to spinal manipulation and rehabilitative activity, durable medical equipment, physiological therapeutics, body work, massage, acupuncture and nutritional management. Nutritional supplements and other natural substances are those described in 21 NCAC 10 .0209 and may be administered via the most efficacious and safe method taught by recognized chiropractic colleges and universities, as limited by law."

Right there, on page 2 of their guidelines for practice they explicitly mention that "meridian procedures" are a viable modality. If that doesn't set off your bullshit alarms I don't know what will.

[Edited on May 22, 2012 at 10:48 AM. Reason : .]

5/22/2012 10:41:28 AM

It's also not impossible for relief to not be a result of the placebo effect

5/22/2012 10:45:43 AM

Nothing is impossible. It's just way way way more likely that you'll get actual help from real doctors instead of shaman.

It's also way way way more likely that the people in this thread attributing actual benefits of chiropractic are mistakenly attributing causation where none exists and being bilked for it.

5/22/2012 10:49:40 AM

Listen, I'm not saying there aren't a whole bunch of quack chiros out there, as I believe there absolutely are, probably even the majority of them. I've also had a C1/C2 fusion done, spent 3 months in a halo, another 3 in various neck braces and been in and out of real actual doctor's offices more times than I can count over my lifetime. I can tell you that had I gone into a doctor's office with the issue in my lower back they answer would absolutely not have been that my inflexibility was causing the issue. Look at a picture of where the psoas (spelled wrong in my other post) connects to the leg and spine and tell me it wouldn't be a problem if yours was really tight.

Look up tensegrity, myo-fascial release, and active release technique. These things make a lot more sense than cracking your joints and there's a lot of support for them outside of the chiro world.

Maybe you're not really directly arguing with me, if so, I apologize for arguing with the wall. All I'm saying is that there are some chiros out there who are using different techniques than are being discussed in this thread that make a lot of sense to me

5/22/2012 11:03:25 AM

Quote :

"NOT REAL DOCTORS"

5/22/2012 11:23:59 AM

^^No, admittedly some chiropractors attempt to distance themselves from their quackamedic origins but the practice on the whole is not based on science or clinical trials in any meaningful way. All they have is anecdotes and people aren't as forthcoming when they don't see results as they are when they do.

Maybe it "worked" for you. Maybe it was any number of other behavioral or dietary changes that coincided along with it. Maybe you would have gotten better with or without someone monkeying with your spine. Maybe the chiropractor didn't adjust your spine but just acted as a masseuse and loosened your psoas muscle enough to allow your flexibility to help.

If they can't explain why adjusting your spine helps with X medical problem then there's no reason to think that it isn't just snake oil. Snake oil that could paralyze or kill you. Maybe some chiropractors sell massage along with the snake oil.

Bottom line: it's your body and do what the hell you want with it. I just wish that more people were informed of the origin and stated mystical practices of the field which they are tricked into thinking is medical.

5/22/2012 11:41:45 AM

I get why people go to chiropractors. And this is only my perspective anyway. I wanted to keep an open mind about alternative medicine and I have gone to 4 chiropractors before. None I was really satisfied with.

People feel a sense of contentment since chiropractors almost always can get them in to be “treated” in a day or two of a call. One the other hand, if you take the traditional route, you usually have to be seen by your general practitioner before you are referred to a specialist. It takes a week or 2 to be seen by the general and another 3 weeks or more to be seen by the specialist. Then another week or 2 to get any diagnostic tests, MRI, etc.

And between all this time, they prescribe you anti-inflammatory or other medicines until your visits.

5/22/2012 11:44:08 AM

I dunno about using chiropractors for all sorts of medical stuff, but mine has helped me out tremendously in the past with issues related to tight, stretched out muscles and muscle spasms.

I am pretty tall (6'-3") and grew 6 inches my senior year of high school. I'm not naturally a flexible person and I don't stretch enough. My biggest problem with back pain and alignment comes from my psoas muscle spasming, and this affects me all up and down by back and leg. My chiropractor has gotten me mobile again a number of times when I was unable to move without severe pain.

5/22/2012 12:22:29 PM

http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Homer's_Miracle_Spine-O-Cylinder

5/22/2012 9:27:08 PM

I don't care for their New-Age stuff, but I think their spinal alignment stuff is pretty legit- I had severe right shoulder
pains that prevented me from swimming and doing yoga comfortably for a few months early last year. It was so bad at times I could barely turn my head to the right. I went to a cycling friend of mine, who is also a chiropractor, and got adjusted and stretched on 3 consecutive weekly visits.

Haven't had problems since with my shoulders.

5/22/2012 9:35:53 PM

I've only ever gone for major back pain. Worked well. For anything outside musculoskeletal though a GP.

Quote :

" Has anyone ever been permanently "cured" of a back ailment by a Chiro?"

I had my back 'go out' odd sensation of extreme pain in most positions. Went to a chiro, got it fixed up. Haven't had that issue again since though. Just a recurring neck/shoulder thing, but that is separate from anything the chiro even touched.

5/22/2012 9:39:45 PM

Quote :

"Haven't had problems since with my shoulders."

I can assure you that it wasn't because your spine was misaligned. The stretching and massaging is probably what fixed your shoulders. A physical therapist could have done this for you also.

5/22/2012 11:07:10 PM

The Student Health Center has physical therapy. Would'nt they be good to go to for back pain?

5/23/2012 8:55:37 AM

^^ If my shoulder discomfort was because I didn't stretch my shoulders, then yoga and massage from the bf both would have put me back into alignment. They hadn't at that point, so the only thing that was different was getting aligned. Was sore immediately after the first appt, and that totally sucked, but was good after that.

5/23/2012 10:40:58 AM

post hoc ergo propter hoc. One of these days I'm going to give up on the truth business and open a chiropractic church of homeopathic applied kinesiology.

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 10:54 AM. Reason : .]

5/23/2012 10:51:29 AM

You know if you operate under the assumption that something won't work no matter what, you can apply all of those laws to discredit anything, regardless of whether it's true or not

can you provide a theoretical situation in which someone might have gotten something fixed which would not be able to be refuted by some kind of law?

5/23/2012 11:04:19 AM

wat

theoretically A "chiropractor" could at least temporarily resolve muscle tension and pain through massage that occurs along with their bullshit sublaxtion garbage.

5/23/2012 11:27:49 AM

no I'm asking you to describe a situation in which John Smith has an issue, goes to a chiropractor, and gets an unknown cure for which you can't discredit with "ergo facto dipshito"

5/23/2012 11:34:00 AM

The burden of proof is not on me to disprove it. They need to prove that it works and how it works.

"That it works" is unsupported by clinical trial. "How it works" is magical bullshit. It's exactly like acupuncture or homeopathy. Lots of anecdotes. No proof.

5/23/2012 11:45:12 AM

So basically that is your position, and no matter how many people show up in this thread and say, "I went to the chiropractor and X happened and I saw this it was good" you are going to come in and repeat your position each time

5/23/2012 11:52:50 AM

A primary care doctor is going to try to medicate you

A chiropractor attempting to "adjust" your spine amidst severe muscle tension or spasm will not help you and may worsen the situation

I have, however, gotten considerable neck / back relief from some of the methods a chiro has used to release the muscle tension via trigger points (dont know what they are actually called).

I wouldn't go to an old school "pop and crack" chiropractor, but a competent chiropractor using the Activator method can bring relief without taking a toll on your body

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2012 11:59:56 AM

The plural of anecdote is not evidence. So no, anecdotes won't change my "position", which is the right position: tentative disbelief until supported by evidence.

Once again: anyone is welcome to do whatever they want to their bodies. It's important to me that they and others know that they're being scammed.

5/23/2012 12:00:06 PM

tentative disbelief is not equal to knowing for a fact that people are being scammed

5/23/2012 12:02:47 PM

Clinical trial citing successful reduction in Migraines form Chiropractic treatment

Quote :

"A clinical trial reported in Medical-News.net on May 22, 2005 showed that 72% of migraine sufferers experienced either 'substantial' or 'noticeable' improvement after a period of chiropractic care. The study was a randomized clinical trial completed over a 20 year period. Dr. Peter Tuchin, was the chief researcher and presented his results in a thesis at Macquarie University in Australia."

http://eastfallschiro.net/templates20/article/1129.html

5/23/2012 12:11:33 PM

80 year old know nothing doctor giving you pain pills = Legit, evidence-backed science

Soft-tissue/massage therapy = quackery, hundreds of thousands of success stories don't mean shit

5/23/2012 12:15:11 PM

Chiropractor's website referring to a single clinical trial with a small sample size and only 20% effectiveness. Why are you impressed by this?

^,Please note where I said that massage therapy is quackery. Please fucking quote me where I said massage therapy is quackery. Many many times I've admitted that anything chiropractors may do that resemble massage therapy may have a therapeutic effect.

And also, so me where I recommended "80 year old know nothing doctor giving you pain pills" as the preferred modality for chronic pain.

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 12:36 PM. Reason : fuck PMs]

5/23/2012 12:35:48 PM

You're saying people would be better off going to a "real doctor" than a chiropractor, but as someone mentioned, a primary care physician is just going to medicate you.

You started out by saying that chiropractors are witch doctors. You've slowly backed off from that statement, admitting that maybe, some chiropractors are using some practices that just so happen to work.

If you want to find the evidence, it's out there. If you want to dig your heels in, that's cool too. The old school "pop and crack" chiropractors use highly questionable methods, but that isn't all chiropractors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15319761
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2007.0796
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1529943005008338

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 1:02 PM. Reason : ]

5/23/2012 12:57:45 PM

The one time I went to a chiropractor it was a complete waste of time. Guy just zapped me with some electricity, cracked my spine, and said my back problems would be cured if I came back weekly for six months for more of the same treatment. I ended up buying better shoes for the type of work I was doing and that ended up taking care of my back problems for a lot less money.

5/23/2012 1:17:52 PM

"modern chiropractors" throw all sorts of modalities in their practices. Some of them may be legitimate. They're still witch doctors at worst and snake oil salesmen at best. I'm not going to trade clinical trials in the thread because you and I both know we can provide them ad infinitum to whatever conclusion we see fit and without a thorough examination of their methodology, purposed mechanisms, and quality of the journal published, the cover page of a clinical trial is worthless.

If it worked and was explainable you wouldn't be showing me the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, though. I must be a shill for "big pharma", preferring proven medicine to unproven medicine. It's really just a conspiracy that they're not considered actual doctors.

5/23/2012 1:19:23 PM

Dig your heels in it is.

Decent thread about it: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/lq900/are_chiropractors_quacks/

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 1:31 PM. Reason : ]

5/23/2012 1:25:11 PM

My favorite so far:

Quote :

"I call them "back gypsies"."

5/23/2012 1:36:01 PM

With prescription pain killers causing more deaths than all other illegal drugs combined in 2011, it's pretty obvious there is a large amount of "quacks" with M.D. on the end of their name as well.

5/23/2012 1:46:23 PM

agreed.

5/23/2012 1:48:19 PM

I read a lot of stuff from the skeptical community and have noticed a foaming at the mouth hatred for all brands of alternative medicine. They act like all doctors are honest, thorough bastions of cutting edge scientific knowledge while chiropractors are lying quacks.

This hasn't exactly matched up with my experience. Several doctors I have visited and heard of around here seem to be decades behind on the literature and some have been down right clueless. We came to my wife's doctor with a laundry list of issues she was having. We brought up our thoughts (something doctors certainly hate) and she had no idea what we were talking about. She was completely unaware of common diagnostic tests and unfamiliar with the most basic hormones. She wouldn't refer us to anyone else and she refused to do any tests. Her only response was "do you want sleeping pills?"

For all the bullshit, the chiropractors I have encountered have been a lot more respectful, more willing to do testing, and seem to spend more of their time at least attempting to keep up to date on things (conferences, reading, consulting with specialists,etc.) Let me also point out that most chiropractors are "mixers":

Quote :

"Mixer chiropractors "mix" diagnostic and treatment approaches from osteopathic, medical, and chiropractic viewpoints. Unlike straight chiropractors, mixers believe subluxation is one of many causes of disease, and they incorporate mainstream medical diagnostics and employ many treatments including conventional techniques of physical therapy such as exercise, massage, ice packs, and moist heat, along with nutritional supplements, acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal remedies, and biofeedback. Mixers tend to be open to mainstream medicine and are the majority group."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic

There's certainly woo mixed in, but I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that "vertebral subluxation" is the only thing that all or even many chiropractors do. It's like pointing out that the etymology of chemistry is alchemy or that Newton was an alchemist himself.

5/23/2012 2:34:55 PM

Quote :

"We brought up our thoughts (something doctors certainly hate)"

Shitty doctors, sure, but I think it's unfair to say all doctors react negatively to this. Granted if you go into their office saying you have flesh-eating bacteria or whatever the disease of the week is then I could see you getting some eyerolls.

5/23/2012 2:38:30 PM

Quote :

"With prescription pain killers causing more deaths than all other illegal drugs combined in 2011, it's pretty obvious there is a large amount of "quacks" with M.D. on the end of their name as well. "

Yes, because Oxycontin has never been sold on the black market, ever.

5/23/2012 2:41:12 PM

^^That's just been my experience. If I had any clue how to find a decent doctor who gives a shit, I would.

On the other hand, there is a perception among skeptics that all doctors are necessarily better than any given practitioner of alternative medicine, which I think is bullshit.

I once saw a blogger tell a woman she should fire her doctor because the doctor had mentioned acupuncture as an option (even though the doctor was admittedly great in every other respect).

[Edited on May 23, 2012 at 2:45 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

5/23/2012 2:44:06 PM