http://www.theagitator.com/2012/05/24/the-moral-case-for-organ-markets/

I completely and whole-heartedly agree with the premise and the argument. If the government would ever actually agree that you own your body we could save some lives. Not allowing organ sales is pretty idiotic considering your only argument is an urban legend about some girl waking up in a tub of ice.

5/24/2012 3:43:58 PM

A Modest Proposal

5/24/2012 4:18:59 PM

I fear it may be a fallacy of composition. Certainly paying people to donate organs could result in more organs, thus save lives. But requiring people to pay for organs most certainly won't result in any more kidneys, just a different distribution on who gets them, and I think that's the part people have a problem with moreso than it being "icky" that people are being paid to donate.

[Edited on May 24, 2012 at 4:28 PM. Reason : ]

5/24/2012 4:28:04 PM

^ agree. Limited supply means high cost and no availability for the lower class. The only fair way to do it is a wait list/lottery, that is, until we can just 3d print the things

5/29/2012 10:20:37 PM

So keep the waitlist, but to increase supply allow people to donate for compensation.

5/29/2012 10:23:38 PM

Quote :

"Certainly paying people to donate organs could result in more organs, thus save lives."

Yes, no one can dispute this.

Quote :

"But requiring people to pay for organs most certainly won't result in any more kidneys"

Requiring that they pay? What kind of backwards logic is this?

They already pay for organs. Even if the organ itself isn't a commodity, the process of replacing a kidney absolutely is. Someone has to put it in. Putting the maximum price of a kidney firmly at 0 dollars guarantees that there will always be a constricted supply and thus a wait list. If no one has any reason to give up a kidney (putting themselves at risk at the time of the procedure and in the future) except altruism, why are we surprised when kidneys are in short supply?

You don't have a right to tell someone that they can't sell their kidney. You don't have a right to tell someone they can't buy a kidney. You have no fucking say in that transaction. It isn't your life. People are still free to donate their kidneys for free to an organization that distributes based on a wait list.

[Edited on May 29, 2012 at 10:56 PM. Reason : ]

5/29/2012 10:55:58 PM

A kidney transplant is already expensive, so the poor are already excluded. In the operating room right now everyone is getting paid lavishly, from the doctors to the nurses to the janitors to the hospital itself, except the only person there putting their life at risk. All allowing a price greater than zero for a kidney will do is drive the price from $263k to $263k + $x, whatever x turns out to be.
http://www.transplantliving.org/before-the-transplant/financing-a-transplant/the-costs/

5/30/2012 8:27:37 AM

Quote :

"Not allowing organ sales is pretty idiotic considering your only argument is an urban legend about some girl waking up in a tub of ice."

Or, you know, exploiting the poor to get them to sell their organs for cheap. IIRC, this is a major problem in India. Yes, I know, there are arguments for more regulation and getting the issue front and center, but to say that the only argument against this practice is an urban legend is juvenile at best.

5/30/2012 12:19:24 PM

So your argument against it is that some people, because they might be in a bad situation financially, will sell their organs for less than you think they should?

Under a system where you are allowed to sell your organs the procedure would still take place in a hospital, it's not like this is going to be happening in the back of a 7-11. There would probably be set prices at any facility that performs the organ harvesting and people would go to where they could get the most, not the least.

5/30/2012 12:38:15 PM

^^ Or to get them to sell their labor for cheap, their property for cheap, or their votes for cheap. The poor are poor, relieving them of the right to engage in activities that are perfectly legal but for the price being paid.

To put it in concrete terms, if the decision is between watching their children starve to death and donating a kidney, who are we to force them to watch their children starve to death? Certainly no one should ever be forced to make such a decision, but the solution is for us to find a way to feed their children, not throw them in prison for doing so in a way you don't approve of.

[Edited on May 30, 2012 at 6:09 PM. Reason : .,.]

5/30/2012 6:03:23 PM

This could either turn into a situation like egg donation or into a fucking disaster like human sex trafficking.

5/31/2012 10:00:49 AM

The difference is legality. Sex trafficking largely exists because there is no legal venue for the sale of "sex services", i.e. prostitution in many countries. Where that isn't the case, it's just modern-day slavery.

I don't see any way that legalizing the sale of one's own organs leads to anything like sex trafficking.

5/31/2012 10:27:57 AM

I should have clarified it as minors being involved in sex trafficking.

I know adults are involved as well but it is legal in certain areas. Boning a 12 year old will never be legal in any sane place.

5/31/2012 10:33:54 AM

I accept your points as valid, but I shall counter them all by quoting my first post.

Quote :

"to say that the only argument against this practice is an urban legend is juvenile at best"

5/31/2012 11:36:01 AM

agreed.

but its a scary urban legend.

5/31/2012 11:50:04 AM

Quote :

"to say that the only argument against this practice is an urban legend is juvenile at best"

The person waking up in a bath tub full of ice scenario is a reason to support the legalization of selling organs. As it stands, there is a black market for organs, which opens things up to very disturbing practices.

If it were made legal, it wouldn't be unregulated. It's not like you could just show up to the organ shop with a kidney in a cooler and say, "So how much can I get for this?" That's something that could only happen in a black market.

You'd only be able to sell your own organs, and it would all have to be authorized by you. Some process would be developed to verify legit organs. Just sounds like you guys haven't really thought this through.

5/31/2012 12:06:36 PM

the other side of it would be this...

you can not currently buy or sell organs. As far as I know there is no market for it and people dont consider selling their organs for money.

If you were to legalize the sale of your organs and a market was created to sell ones organs then a market could manifest underneath that to sell other peoples organs.

falsifying documentation is pretty easy.

but shit who knows.

5/31/2012 12:22:48 PM

Quote :

"you can not currently buy or sell organs. As far as I know there is no market for it and people dont consider selling their organs for money."

Alright. Let's try this on for size:

Quote :

"you can not currently buy or sell drugs. As far as I know there is no market for it and people dont consider selling drugs for money."

Obviously, that would be naive. No, you cannot legally buy or sell drugs (unless you're a pharmacy, and even then, only some drugs). Of course, there is a market for it, which we call a black market. Many people die because this black market is not run by legitimate businessmen, it's run by thugs and people that are willing to put themselves in risky situations to make money.

Without the laws prohibiting organ sales (drug sales), there is no black market. There are no back alley "caffeine deals". There are no cigarette cartels. These legal drugs are able to be traded legitimately and they are regulated.

5/31/2012 12:28:35 PM

that is not what I am saying.

I have never heard of someone cutting out their own kidney to sell it.

Its not even an option. Not only is it "illegal" its completely outside pretty much everyone's realm of possibilities

now I could be wrong with my claim that people dont sell their organs but what you just said does not apply.

also one more thing. Just because something is legal doesn't mean illegal enterprises arise from it. Cigarettes are legal however people buy them in at JRs and sell them in New Jersey all of the time. Its illegal and it will get you put in jail. Terrorists use this tactic to raise money. If cigarettes were illegal this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Edited on May 31, 2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason : !]

5/31/2012 12:36:23 PM

Growing demand fuels black market organ trade

Quote :

"Nearly 11,000 organs were bought on the black market in 2010, a sign that the illegal organ trade is booming, according to the World Health Organization. There were nearly 107,000 organ transplants in 2010 – just 10 percent of the global need – and WHO officials and medical experts estimate 10 percent of those transplants were done with organs acquired on the black market, the Guardian reports. "It's ever growing, it's a constant struggle," said a WHO official who monitors the illicit trade of organs. "The stakes are so big, the profit that can be made so huge, that the temptation is out there.""

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/05/28/growing-demand-fuels-black-market-organ-trade/

5/31/2012 12:38:53 PM

is it legal to sell your organs legitimately in some countries?

5/31/2012 12:41:24 PM

Maybe Somalia.

5/31/2012 12:42:16 PM

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2007/05/india_transplants_main?currentPage=all

interesting article.

seems like a shitty situation.

5/31/2012 12:45:44 PM

Hmmmm, let's see... people sell blood plasma, people sell eggs, people sell sperm. There is a market for all of this. One would have to presume that it would be a net benefit if we saw an increase in stocks of blood available in emergencies. It seems likely that if people got a little bit of cash as an incentive you would see blood donation increase. Seems likely that a cash reward for bone marrow would likely entice more donors there too.

There is clearly a need for organs, we do not currently have enough donors to meet the demand. One would think compensation in some form would increase the number of donors both living and dead. If your estate would receive monetary compensation upon your death don't you think we'd see more people registering as organ donors? Why not extend that to any adult who wanted to exchange say... part of his kidney for $25,000?

The market exists, but it is not currently allowed to benefit those in need.

5/31/2012 12:47:42 PM

Quote :

"is it legal to sell your organs legitimately in some countries?"

Yep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_trade_in_Iran

Iran, of all places, lets people sell kidneys, with the result that it doesn't have a shortage or waiting list for those organs.

5/31/2012 2:40:43 PM

Those...savages.

5/31/2012 2:46:17 PM

Quote :

"They already pay for organs. Even if the organ itself isn't a commodity, the process of replacing a kidney absolutely is."

What does that have to do with anything? I never said the transplant was free, only the organs are.

Quote :

"is it legal to sell your organs legitimately in some countries?"

It has been legal in a great number of countries, it has since been banned in most of them, notable examples include India and the Phillipeans. It is still legal in Iran, and this has caused it to become a worldwide center for the the white and black markets of organ trade. I might not have made this clear enough in my first post, but I am neither for, nor against, open organ trade. I merely tried to point out faulty logic present in the original article. I think it is likely that anecdotal evidence and horror stories from countries that are drastically different than ours, economically and culturally, drives the negative opinion on organ trade, and it is completely possible that these horror stories wouldn't play out in a place like the US, but it is also possible that it could, for that reason I have no opinion either way on the issue.

5/31/2012 3:18:09 PM

Quote :

"What does that have to do with anything? I never said the transplant was free, only the organs are."

And the ketchup packets at McDonalds are free too, doesn't mean the poor get to eat there. As such, the poor are already going without kidneys because they cannot afford the transplants. As such, the only people getting kidneys have insurance, which is going to pay whether the price is $263k for just the operation or $363k for the operation plus $100k kidney.

5/31/2012 5:05:37 PM

Have you ever been in a mcdonalds?

5/31/2012 5:20:08 PM

Quote :

"To put it in concrete terms, if the decision is between watching their children starve to death and donating a kidney, who are we to force them to watch their children starve to death?"

Do you forget that we live in a fucking first world country? Do you seriously expect people have to sell their organs to make sure their kids don't starve in the US?

5/31/2012 5:28:38 PM

I like how you're willing to let children die in order to maintain some grandiose national image.

5/31/2012 5:50:33 PM

Are there children starving in the street that I don't know about here? Most countries that are poor enough to have eligible organ donors starving are, number 1: somewhere else, number 2: have ample oppurtunity to sell those healthy organs on the black market.

5/31/2012 6:18:39 PM

We were talking about India, where there most definitely are people starving in the streets trying to sell body parts.

5/31/2012 9:57:27 PM

Are we talking about India's laws or America's?

5/31/2012 11:27:02 PM

Should be about the same law. I believe it is equally illegal to sell a kidney under both regimes.

But if you'd prefer to discuss only first world problems, fine. Who are we to stop someone from selling a kidney to save their house? To prevent having their children taken away from them due to homelessness?

6/1/2012 8:17:22 AM

how can walmart get in on this action?

6/1/2012 8:32:58 AM