http://www.microsoft.com/surface/

6/18/2012 7:44:50 PM

Would have been nice to get some actual pricing and availability information.

6/18/2012 8:04:21 PM

Yeah. "priced to compete" isn't cutting it. I'd actually buy one of the ARM versions if it was ~$300. But that sounds like a pipe dream. I'm guessing the intel ones will start around $1000? Right around a decently spec'd ultrabook probably.

6/18/2012 8:06:25 PM

would be nice to know battery life as well. also the intel one is 2 pounds and has fans

[Edited on June 18, 2012 at 8:06 PM. Reason : a]

6/18/2012 8:06:30 PM

and screen res

6/18/2012 8:10:39 PM

I want that

6/18/2012 8:11:05 PM

The resolution will have to be just standard laptop res, right? Surely they would have mentioned it if it was anything special.

6/18/2012 8:16:20 PM

Well, they said full HD so 1920x1080 at 10.6" = 208 pixel density (new MacBook Pro Retina is 220) so it should be damn good.

6/18/2012 8:29:50 PM

Hmm...I missed the 1080p part. Is that only in the Pro model?

6/18/2012 8:37:23 PM

it says "HD" for the RT version and "Full HD" for the Pro so assume that is 720/1080. Its on the official spec sheet.

* So TheVerge just got hands on the RT version and it is 1366 x 768. So looks like Pro is the only one with retina level display

[Edited on June 18, 2012 at 8:41 PM. Reason : .]

6/18/2012 8:38:52 PM

Oh. Duh. I saw that but for some reason I thought that was talking about video playback capabilities and not screen res.

6/18/2012 8:40:04 PM

Well, since it is worded 10.6” ClearType Full HD Display I think its definitely the physical resolution

6/18/2012 8:43:08 PM

oh, no, you're right. It's talking about the res. I'm just saying I didn't pick up on it from looking at the data sheet. Don't know why they couldn't have just put an actual numerical resolution on there to avoid confusion.

Quote :

"So looks like Pro is the only one with retina level display"

Not to spark an Apple vs PC fanwar, but I doubt that 208 ppi would qualify as retina on a screen this size, even if it wasn't a trademark of and 100% defined by Apple.

6/18/2012 8:44:49 PM

Well, the new macbook retina is just 220, right?

6/18/2012 8:49:17 PM

I think he's saying that the threshold for retina becomes less strict as you increase screen size

6/18/2012 8:52:15 PM

Yeah, but it's also on a screen that's 150% bigger. The ppi should go up as the screen gets smaller, not down. The closest sized Apple screen to this would be the iPad 3 which needed a ppi of 264 in order to get the Retina qualification. But again, it's just a made up marketing term by Apple anyway.

6/18/2012 8:53:47 PM

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/18/3095335/microsoft-surface-hands-on

1366 x 768 for RT version

6/18/2012 8:54:26 PM

why does the density need to go up for screen size if the display is looked at from the same viewing distance

6/18/2012 8:56:24 PM

OMG TEH DUBS TEP

gg ms

6/18/2012 8:59:29 PM

The idea is that the larger the screen, the farther away from your eyes you would hold it. I know right now my laptop is sitting on my leg, whereas, if I were on my iPad it would be around stomach level, and my phone around chest level.

6/18/2012 9:00:06 PM

Tegra 3 on the RT version?

http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/18/3095909/microsoft-surface-windows-rt-nvidia-tegra

6/18/2012 9:07:21 PM

When was Qualcomm's quad-core snapdragon supposed to be in devices?

6/18/2012 10:04:53 PM

kinda want

typing on that cover has to be annoying though

6/19/2012 8:26:13 AM

Yeah I really want to get the Pro version and throw Steam on that bitch. Best mobile gaming device yet

6/19/2012 9:35:51 AM

^Until you realize you're trying to run everything on Intel HD 4000 graphics.

/do any of the Steam games even have touch screen support?

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 9:45 AM. Reason : s]

6/19/2012 9:43:53 AM

making 2 tablets with the same name but wildly different oses/specs is retarded. the intel one especially. its gonna be an ultrabook with worse battery life, screen, and keyboard.

they should have focused on the arm based one. get it to 10hrs of battery life and price it around 399. then take the desktop crap out of win 8 rt so its metro only and not confusing to consumers.

6/19/2012 10:14:32 AM

^^ Yeah I won't be running any new games on high settings (and many games I won't be running at all) but there's still a whole library that will run just fine on this thing.

Also stuff like this http://www.techmynd.com/play-any-game-with-multitouch/ will be coming out in spades when Windows 8 tablets start releasing.

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason : ]

6/19/2012 10:15:42 AM

^^ If they priced it at 399, not only would they not be making any money on it, they would also be undercutting their OEM hardware partners so they wouldn't be selling any either.

It's better to sell a million tablets at $120 profit each and have other companies sell 5 million tablets that pay you $50 each for the software, than to sell 20 million tablets at a $20 profit.

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason : ]

6/19/2012 10:20:34 AM

I just want to take a sec to point out how fucking stupid microsofts convered platform ideas are.

First off, this shit has never sold. Despite 15 years of trying, convereged full os tablets have always failed to gain any lasting traction with consumers. Why is that? because desktop UIs are designed for mice and keyboards and suck 100000 balls for touch or other input.

But now microsoft has Metro which people seem to like. So microsoft is trying to build on that appeal. However, they can seem to understand that people only like it for touch.

Every single person fucking hates metro when used with a mouse and keyboard. It fucking blows. Its the worst fucking possible ui for a mouse and keyboard, but despite this microsoft is going full steam ahead on cramming it into every product even when it doesnt belong.

So lets step back and take a look at this from a consumer's standpoint. Not some sperg-ass "im gonna install skyrim or linux on this"-nerd, but an actual regular person like your parents (although maybe not some of your parents). They're gonna see desktops, laptops, and tablets all with the same metro UI prominently featured. They're going to instantly assume that this is all the same OS and that its all windows so its gonna run everything i've used on windows in the past.

If they go to buy a desktop, they're gonna be amazed at how bad metro is with a mouse and keyboard. They're gonna demo this in best buy or their kids gonna buy them one, and they're gonna fucking hate it. They're gonna constantly look for the start menu so they can get to what they want and they're gonna be confused as shit by duplicate metro and desktop apps (like ie) working differently despite having the same name. Windows 8 will kill consumer desktops and keep businesses on windows 7 for the future.

If they go to buy a laptop, its gonna be much the same experience as the desktop. Except that some of those laptops might have shitty touch screens and they might try to use the touch screen with metro for a while, but they'll quickly realize that its tiring to constantly paw at a vertical screen and most of the apps they're trying to use arent metro anyway so they'll spend all their time in desktop mode wondering where the start menu went and why the hell everything had to become this mess. They will constantly ask their kids how to put it back the way it was and their kids will get tired of the whining and just install windows 7 on there. I doubt win8 kills off consumer windows laptops immediately as long as win7 is still available. Businesses will only buy laptops that come with win7 downgrade licenses.

So now we come to tablets. And this is where it gets even worse because microsoft has two tablet platforms, one for x86 and one for arm. Consumers wont understand or care about the difference. They'll just see the x86 ones as heavier tablets with shit battery life and 2x the price tag. Sales people will try to convice them that you can use all your old apps! The consumer will refuse to believe the arm version cant also run their old apps (cause it says windows). If any of them are convinced to buy the overpriced tablet, they'll quickly realize how much touch suck balls for their old apps. After which they will return or stop using it.

Most consumers will go for the win arm tabs because they will be cheaper and they wont understand that old apps wont run because its arm. Nor should they have to care about arm vs x86. They will get mad because their old apps wont run, they'll be pissed because it has a desktop ui but MICROSOFT WONT LET ME RUN MY APPS!!! They dont understand that the desktop stuff is there because the office team is lazy and office is a shitpile of digusting old com that they wont update to winrt.

So no one will buy x86 win tabs (just like no one has in the last 15 years) and the arm tabs will get a bad rep as not running the software they want.

Its not too late to stop this train wreck, but its gonna involve Ballmer eating his pride.

Step 1. DO NOT RTM WIN 8 X86! DO NOT FUCKING DO IT BECAUSE METRO HAS NO BUSINESS HERE. There are no good touch only devices that are x86. they all suck. No one wants a touch + mouse+keyboard hybrid. those suck too. x86 is the domain of laptops and desktop. abandon all hope ye tablets who enter here. Everyone hates metro w/ a mouse + keyboard so theres no reason to release the current version of win 8 x86

Step 2. Release WinRT + the Windows Store app (or w/e its called) in a service pack for windows 7. Take all the kernel improvements and other things that were done under the hood in win 8 x86 and build them into a win 7.5 that can be purchased on the windows store for $40. New desktops and laptops would ship with win 7.5. This keeps everyone happy and on windows in the desktop + laptop space and releases the store on win 7/7.5 for easy app discovery and distribution.

Step 3. Rebrand win 8 arm as surface os. Tear out the desktop ui and any vestigial code that was added to prop up office. Ditch the x86 surface tablet and go whole hog arm only. Make it the best tablet possible with battery life on par and pricing on par with the ipad. Also try for a better screen to compete with the ipad 3. Replace windows phone 7 with surface os.

Step 4. WinRT becomes the underlying runtime target across all microsoft platforms. An app devleoper writes to WinRT and then provides different XAMLs for each device. A touch friendly metro one for surface os, a mouse+keyboard friendly one for win 7.X (WPF style), and a kinect+controller friendly one for xbox.

Step 5. Create and Office RT with no native code (WinRT only) that does 99% of what users want which is the ability to view all office docs and the ability to do basic word processing, and spreadsheet+powerpoint editing. They dont need to be able to do VBA crap, they just want to be able to open an xlsx and make a note or a small change. Or maybe edit a word doc they've been working on for some class.

If microsoft doesnt pull this shit back now they're in for hard times.

6/19/2012 11:00:07 AM

You're listing a bunch of problems with the intel tablets that have a very basic cause and a very basic solution.

Quote :

"There are no good touch only devices that are x86. they all suck."

Nobody wants one because so far they have all sucked. If Microsoft can make one that doesn't suck then it's likely that people will want it.

As for desktop/laptop windows 8, I think Microsoft will come to their senses and eventually enable classic desktop by default. I'll be honest I haven't used Windows 8 at all yet, do you need to use Metro at all if you're using Desktop windows 8?

I definitely agree that Office needs to be metro enabled so that RT users don't need to ever switch to "desktop" mode.

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 11:15 AM. Reason : ]

6/19/2012 11:14:33 AM

no one will ever make a good x86 touch only device because x86 is too power hungry. it means lower battery life and fans. you should not have fans on a handheld device.

And then to top that off because its an x86 device it means they';ll just put a full x86 os on there which means the software is gonna be terrible for touch.

Getting an x86 tablet right requires way too much effort and people doing the right thing to make a good one possible. Going arm is easier and theoretically removes the temptation to shove bad stuff in there (but as we've seen microsoft managed to fuck that up because of office).

6/19/2012 11:27:07 AM

preach it Shaggy

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 12:01 PM. Reason : and ^^ metro replaces the start menu]

6/19/2012 11:59:56 AM

You could be right, but I'm going to wait for it to actually release before declaring it a failure.

6/19/2012 12:01:10 PM

Apple can't touch this thing.

6/19/2012 12:13:13 PM

also lmao the windows 8 logo is so bad.

6/19/2012 12:25:40 PM

thats more of a nitpick but its kind of symbolic of microsoft just not getting it. i mean i understand wanting to get rid of the flag logo, but the blue window thing is so ugly. its just so wierd when they already have an excellent non-flag logo that they use for the windows store.

at microsoft one hand doesnt know what the other is doing. also there are like 5000 hands

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 12:29 PM. Reason : .]

6/19/2012 12:27:48 PM

Quote :

"preach it Shaggy"

especially:

Quote :

"Rebrand win 8 arm as surface os."

6/19/2012 1:22:49 PM

I concur with shaggy, especially about windows 8 on desktops.... it really seems like MS is mixing software and hardware that shouldn't be mixed.

6/19/2012 1:35:34 PM

Take off the windows 8 OS and the touch cover from the surface tablet, what is it ?
Is it still gud enuf to play around with ? I heard Microsoft was planning to lock its booting procedure with some kind of security protocol through OEM directly (may be not for Desktop but could be for tablets mostly), Which makes it accessible only by windows OS. Could any one provide more info on this ..

6/19/2012 3:25:28 PM

Quote :

"gud enuf"

Die in a house fire.

6/19/2012 4:09:31 PM

^

6/19/2012 4:11:00 PM

Just want to chime in for the record that Shaggy is going to be dead wrong.

People will learn to use Metro and the changing interaction metaphors exactly like they learned to use the iPhone's touch keyboard, like they learned to use trackpads, like they learned to use mice.

Is Win8 on a desktop clunky? Shit yes it is.
Is Win8 on a traditional laptop? Shit yes it is.

That said, I've run the consumer preview and now the release preview on my laptop. And it has gotten dramatically more usable and useful just in that one rev. The touchpad support has gotten MUCH better. The mouse affordances have gotten MUCH better.

I fully anticipate that trend will continue through to RTM.

And no doubt the developer community will come out with mods for Win8 that make it more desktop friendly in the same way they have for Win95, 98, XP and 7 (Hello StarDock!).

Like it or not, tablets and phones are the growth markets for computing. Win8 is a decidedly tablet focused OS. I don't think people will go out and buy laptops and desktops en-mass that are running Win8. There will be a huge contingent that will stick with Win7, and that's OKAY. This is a growth market opportunity.

Microsoft NEEDS an answer to Android and iPad. It doesn't NEED an answer to Windows 7, or the traditional desktop or laptop. It already dominates those markets with a product people really seem to like. Win8 being a runaway success on traditional PC's is not the intention or the necessity. If Tablets continue to grow in sales at their current rate, they will eclipse PC sales in the next 3 years, and in order to be a player in that growth game, Microsoft NEEDS a compelling competitive platform NOW.

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 5:44 PM. Reason : .]

6/19/2012 5:43:27 PM

Quote :

"And no doubt the developer community will come out with mods for Win8 that make it more desktop friendly in the same way they have for Win95, 98, XP and 7 (Hello StarDock!)."

Anyone else think that statement is completely fucking retarded?

6/19/2012 5:52:19 PM

No. Every OS has plenty of third party applications to modify it to meet user demand. I use DisplayFusion because Microsoft hasn't provided an alternative multi monitor tool. Not saying they shouldn't but a strong user base that develops for the OS is a good thing right?

Hell in OSX I have to run a third party script to turn off the startup sound.

6/19/2012 5:57:58 PM

Why is that retarded? It's exactly what has happened with every single major Windows release. The people who get all pissy about having to learn new controls, new interaction models and new patterns end up supporting the modding community so they can keep working the way they always have.

6/19/2012 5:58:41 PM

I'd have never guessed noen would be pro-Microsoft

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 6:09 PM. Reason : ^nearly every other windows release has been perceived as shit though ]

6/19/2012 6:05:54 PM

Quote :

"People will learn to use Metro and the changing interaction metaphors exactly like they learned to use the iPhone's touch keyboard, like they learned to use trackpads, like they learned to use mice. "

this is bullshit.

people were skeptical of the iphones soft keyboard cause all the previous ones had been bad. then they used it for the first time and realized it was pretty good.

people were skeptical of the win7 taskbar because it looked like the terrible dock in osx. then they used it for the first time and realized it was pretty good.

people were skeptical of a using a touch ui on desktops and laptops in windows 8 because touch is so much different than mouse+keyboard. then they used it and fucking hated every second of it because its so fucking bad and 100000x worse than the old ui for a keyboard+mouse.

this is not some new thing people are rejecting because it is different. it is being rejected because it is bad.

6/19/2012 6:20:29 PM

Quote :

"Microsoft NEEDS an answer to Android and iPad."

sure, but its not x86 tablets or arm tablets with desktop uis.

seperate the windows brand as x86 and the surface brand as arm. get rid of touch on x86 because there are no good touch based x86 devices.

spend a ton of time getting WinRT really good and giving surface os the best hardware support possible (good screen, good battery, good arm power) and bring it in at a price point that can actually compete with the ipad. meaning 499 at the absolute highest.

6/19/2012 6:24:30 PM

separate them and have one act as an input device for the other, like a super Optimus keyboard

[Edited on June 19, 2012 at 6:31 PM. Reason : it can be both an independent tablet and a paired input device]

6/19/2012 6:30:08 PM

Quote :

"Why is that retarded? It's exactly what has happened with every single major Windows release. The people who get all pissy about having to learn new controls, new interaction models and new patterns end up supporting the modding community so they can keep working the way they always have."

Because Win7 was/is actually good. When you get something right, you don't fuck it up and require people to get 3rd party apps to make it like the previous version.

6/19/2012 7:28:42 PM