me and smath are having a lively discussion of this on facebook. do you feel he has an unfair advantage? does he not belong in the olympics? discuss

8/4/2012 10:21:27 PM

Yeah, that's bullshit. He has a weight advantage for sure.

8/4/2012 10:32:03 PM

While he may have an advantage in both weight and possibly energy expenditure, he does suffer a disadvantage in NOT HAVING ANY FUCKING FEET

I'm all for a bionic Olympics

8/4/2012 10:39:08 PM

He also can't feel his "feet" get tired.

Explain how not having feet in this case is a disadvantage?

8/4/2012 10:41:51 PM

Its basically the equivalent of a midget on bouncy stilts

8/4/2012 10:44:53 PM

he should have to wear shoes on the ends of the blades

8/4/2012 10:46:14 PM

dude, I guarantee you his stumps hurt like hell during a run

8/4/2012 10:46:46 PM

^^^ Except not.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 10:47 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 10:47:12 PM

First off, Pistorius has overcome a shit-ton more adversity than I can imagine ever having to overcome, and I'm not trying to take away anything from his accomplishment.

The reason I bring it up though is that one could argue (and even the commentators brought it up) that there could be an advantage to having basically stiff springs in place of lower legs... weight advantage, lack of lactic acid build-up, etc. I think that allowing technology that other competitors aren't allowed to use is an unfair situation - not saying it's an advantage in this case, but where is the line drawn?

(my original post on facebook was:
"It sucks dude lost both legs. But would they let somebody with a bionic arm participate in shotput?")

8/4/2012 10:47:31 PM

I thought that's what the special olympics were for. Upon my research, I discovered it was for only mentally challenged individuals. I can see those with prosthetics having a certain advantage over full bodies humans on the field. Perhaps a good compromise would be to expand the special olympics out to physically disabled people as well. It's not a fair playing field. Being an olympian is about pushing your body as hard and as far as you can go. How can you compete when your don't have 100% of your body? For example, Oscar Pistorius won't ever suffer fatigue in his calves while others racing in the same event could.

All body modifications should be prohibited, especially of this extreme. I'm on the fence about plate replacements (ie: knee surgery, etc). I mean, titanium reinforced Radius, Ulna, Humerus,etc in a weight lifting competition is just obsurd, imo.

Quote :

"First off, Pistorius has overcome a shit-ton more adversity than I can imagine ever having to overcome, and I'm not trying to take away anything from his accomplishment. "

I'm not either, however I don't agree with his competition in the normal olympics.



[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 10:51 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 10:47:43 PM

special olympics are not the same as paralympics

8/4/2012 10:49:56 PM

Quote :

"I thought that's what the special olympics were for."

you are thinking of the paralympics.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 10:51 PM. Reason : ^]

8/4/2012 10:51:08 PM

Well, I only thought of special olympics because back in the day, we'd have "special olympics" for the handicapped and mentally challenged students, and regular field day for the rest of the elementary/middle school students. I don't know if they still do that or not.

^ & ^^. thanks! I'll have to look into that.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 10:53 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 10:53:07 PM

If China is allowed to cut off penises to make stronger female athletes, South Africa can cut off feet to make faster male athletes

8/4/2012 10:53:13 PM

in regards solely to olympic competition, yes, he does indeed have an unfair advantage over "regular" athletes

8/4/2012 10:54:44 PM

Quote :

"I can see those with prosthetics having a certain advantage over full bodies humans on the field."

you clearly have an over inflated view of our prosthetic technology, absolutely not true

8/4/2012 10:55:03 PM

It'd be easy enough to make a set of those to cover normal feet, just allow those too

8/4/2012 10:58:02 PM

Quote :

"yes, he does indeed have an unfair advantage over "regular" athletes"

yep, we should start hacking off the limbs of all of our olympians to give them super bionic powers

8/4/2012 10:58:07 PM

8/4/2012 10:58:32 PM

8/4/2012 10:59:18 PM

^^^ If people take shit to make their dick smaller to get a competitive advantage, there is no telling what they would do to get an advantage that is legal.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:01:17 PM

Quote :

"yep, we should start hacking off the limbs of all of our olympians to give them super bionic powers"

i have no idea what you're talking about...do YOU have any idea what you're talking about?

speaking only of olympic competition, i can name a number of advantages he has over other athletes...would you like to list his disadvantages? "he is missing his fucking feet!" is irrelevant

8/4/2012 11:01:54 PM

Quote :

"you clearly have an over inflated view of our prosthetic technology, absolutely not true "

Proof?

If you are going to make that claim, support your argument.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:03 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:02:21 PM

if you'd like I could bring you to my next orthopedic appointment, I mean not sure what it would take to convince you other than people who work in the field

8/4/2012 11:03:42 PM

Considering I already have a family member who has no legs (same as Oscar, amputee below the knees), I'm pretty up to date on the orthopedic side.


[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:09 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:06:27 PM

i'd still like a list of disadvantages the fake feet give pistorius in the olympics

8/4/2012 11:09:23 PM

Quote :

"dude, I guarantee you his stumps hurt like hell during a run"

+1

Saps is totally the wrong person to argue with and I guarantee you're not nearly as up to date as he is.



[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:11:43 PM

oh, shit, a dude's body hurts when he pushes it to the extreme?

those other runners are so lucky, i'm betting they don't hurt in any way at all

8/4/2012 11:13:27 PM

lol @ Hiro trying to win this argument.


Sit down son. Saps is pretty much the authority.

8/4/2012 11:14:57 PM

the other runners can bend their feet downward at the ankles when they touch ground, catapulting themselves forward slightly

this guy can't do that, obviously, as he has no ankles or feet

I'm not saying I think he should be allowed to compete in the Olympics...but I still don't think he's operating at 100%

8/4/2012 11:16:47 PM

Well, less body fatigue is one. well built ones can provide less body fatigue and more shock absorbtion than those with shoes and limbs.

Having carbon fiber lower limbs, the reduced mass could be a potential performance enhancer. Less mass means he won't tire as easy in a long endurance race. Less weight to carry means he can run harder, faster, and longer. Also, I'm sure his legs weigh less than conventional legs, so he's able to rotate them easier and faster than someone who's got normal legs.


[quoet]How could someone without lower legs possibly have an advantage over athletes with natural legs? The debate took a scientific turn in 2007 when a German team reported that Pistorius used 25 percent less energy than natural runners. The conclusion was tied to the unusual prosthetic made by an Icelandic company called Össur. The Flex-Foot Cheetah has become the go-to running prosthetic for Paralympic (and, potentially Olympic) athletes. "When the user is running, the prosthesis's J curve is compressed at impact, storing energy and absorbing high levels of stress that would otherwise be absorbed by a runner's ankle, knee, hip and lower back," explains Hilmar Janusson, executive vice president of research and development at Össur. The Cheetah's carbon-fiber layers then rebound off the ground in response to the runner's strides.
[/quote] -By Rose Eveleth | Scientific American – Tue, Jul 24, 2012..

http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-debate-whether-oscar-pistoriuss-prosthetic-legs-disqualify-120500039.html

One downside is reduced blood flood, and sometimes/usually, higher blood pressure. Also, there is discomfort, phantom pains, etc.

8/4/2012 11:17:15 PM

heres a good article that outlines the pros and cons. It's not an easy thing to walk on prosthetics, its hard to run on prosthetics and its amazing to run at olympic speeds on prosthetics.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scientists-debate-oscar-pistorius-prosthetic-legs-disqualify-him-olympics

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason : ^not true about fatigue, read this article]

8/4/2012 11:17:48 PM

Quote :

"Saps is totally the wrong person to argue with and I guarantee you're not nearly as up to date as he is. "

Considering I was re-educated in the line of lower leg prosthetics just last week, I believe I am.

Quote :

"It's not an easy thing to walk on prosthetics, its hard to run on prosthetics and its amazing to run at olympic speeds on prosthetics. "

I agree, though that's not the debate.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:19:05 PM

Quote :

"the other runners can bend their feet downward at the ankles when they touch ground, catapulting themselves forward slightly"

from what i've read about the way his prosthetics work (and from what makes sense watching him), he gets a very similar response...enough, anyway, that i wouldn't count him at an advantages or disadvantage

if i'm missing something, please point it out

Quote :

"heres a good article that outlines the pros and cons. It's not an easy thing to walk on prosthetics, its hard to run on prosthetics and its amazing to run at olympic speeds on prosthetics. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scientists-debate-oscar-pistorius-prosthetic-legs-disqualify-him-olympics"

i've read this, as well...and i still think he has an advantage over other athletes

don't get me wrong, i have a great deal of admiration and respect for him and how hard he's worked

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:25 PM. Reason : article]

8/4/2012 11:19:07 PM

Quote :

"heres a good article that outlines the pros and cons. It's not an easy thing to walk on prosthetics, its hard to run on prosthetics and its amazing to run at olympic speeds on prosthetics."

I'm not trying to say it's NOT hard. This guy has clearly busted his ass. (as do people every day who use prosthetics)

8/4/2012 11:23:29 PM

Quote :

"Considering I was re-educated in the line of lower leg prosthetics just last week, I believe I am."

Someone discussed their prosthesis with me and I learned how to use Google, so my knowledge now surpasses the wearer.

Oh and. . .bleeding callused stumps are way better than actual feet.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:26 PM. Reason : ,]

8/4/2012 11:25:09 PM

to be fair, runners feet also are callused and often bleeding.

8/4/2012 11:27:33 PM

^^ Quit acting like you know me. I had to take my uncle to get his new legs fitted. Its been a week long process of the new technologies available, pros and cons to everyday life, etc. So yeah, considering that someone was the prosthetist/orthopedist, I think I know what I know as fact and not just GOOGLE.


[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:28 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:27:54 PM

i think the problem is that folks who think he should be considered equal are attributing that to his determination, perseverance, and strength in the face of adversity...all of which is to be admired

but he is NOT physically equal to a "regular" olympic athlete, even if he is in spirit

quite frankly, i don't care...i don't care who wins any competition and i don't bother to watch anything but the recaps on the morning news...it's great and all, but i simply don't care

good for everyone who made it to the olympics, whether they come in first or last...they've all worked harder than i would/could and i respect that

8/4/2012 11:29:16 PM

Quote :

"runners feet also are callused and often bleeding."

what makes you think stumps dont get the same way? I've pulled my legs off plenty of times to blood and blisters just from walking around all day

8/4/2012 11:29:32 PM

^ i think his point is exactly that...they ARE the same

8/4/2012 11:30:48 PM

very true, that was a bit of selective reading on my part. forgive me for being defensive but I think its silly for anyone to think that any kind of prosthesis is an advantage.

8/4/2012 11:34:21 PM

Quote :

" I had to take my uncle to get his new legs fitted. Its been a week long process of the new technologies available, pros and cons to everyday life, etc. So yeah, considering that someone was the prosthetist/orthopedist, I think I know what I know as fact and not just GOOGLE."

Yes, but that does not make you more knowledgeable or savvy than someone who has lived their entire life with a prosthetic.

Aka:

Quote :

"lol @ Hiro trying to win this argument. Sit down son. Saps is pretty much the authority."

8/4/2012 11:35:12 PM

^^of course they do. I'm not saying they don't, and i know i've said it a lot, but i'm certainly not trying to take away any credit for people who use artificial limbs (or other devices to overcome a physical challenge)... it's not easy.

8/4/2012 11:35:18 PM

like I said elsewhere, I know its easy for you to say "OMG WE GOT SPRINGY LEGS", but until you actually have to work them...you have no idea how hard it is to just stay upright, much less work them at olympic speeds

8/4/2012 11:39:38 PM

Quote :

"forgive me for being defensive but I think its silly for anyone to think that any kind of prosthesis is an advantage."

i certainly get that and i don't understand (and don't want to have cause to) what it's like

and perhaps, even if they ARE advantageous in pistorius' case, he'd trade them for feet in a heartbeat...or maybe not, i don't know

i actually think that if they give him an advantage, that's great...might as well make the best out of a situation you can't control

but objectively, i still believe that if they DO offer an advantage, even a small one, that's unfair to the other athletes

8/4/2012 11:40:14 PM

Yes, but wouldn't you think that any basic mechanical advantage may be outweighed by the level of skill and reeducation of the body's natural inclinations? It is kinda an interesting question. How much of it is just basic bio-mechanics (whose body is superior) and how much of it is learned skill (who uses their body more effectively). . .Uhm. Yeah.

8/4/2012 11:44:48 PM

Quote :

"Yes, but that does not make you more knowledgeable or savvy than someone who has lived their entire life with a prosthetic. "

I'm not claiming to be more knowledgeable or savvy. Again, don't act like you know me and what I know. Saps has his exprience and knowledge. I also have my knowledge as my experience is just from observation via family. We both can still contribute to the conversation, but just because this affects saps directly and me indirectly doesn't mean we both don't have valid points.

Quote :

" Aka: "

Also known as?

Quote :

"but wouldn't you think that any basic mechanical advantage may be outweighed by the level of skill and reeducation of the body's natural inclinations?"

For a long time, yes, but mastery and exploitation of the mechancial advantages (with the right technology) can outweigh the skills. The human body is very, very impressive and I wouldn't doubt it's potential and capabilities.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 11:50 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 11:46:35 PM

AKA
IOW
STFU
GTFO
DIAF
ASL?

8/4/2012 11:48:44 PM

Quote :

"Yes, but wouldn't you think that any basic mechanical advantage may be outweighed by the level of skill and reeducation of the body's natural inclinations?"

i'm speaking from a purely objective standpoint...it's not the road to get where he is that counts in the competition, it's the competition itself and so, all things being equal (or, rather, irrelevant), IF he has a mechanical advantage of any kind, that's unfair to the others

again, i feel the need to point out that i have nothing but respect for him...i just don't think it's fair to the other athletes

8/4/2012 11:49:32 PM