quick background: purchased house in 2006 without being aware that the bonus room was not permitted. at the time, neither agent disclosed the information, and we basically didn't know any better - b/c the listing agent included the square footage in the MLS. now, we're attempting to sell the house, and are working to get it done now. i'm fairly certain the room was completed approximately 10-11 years ago, soon after the house was built (so i realize the codes will have changed since then). we're in Wake Co, but not w/in any municipal limits.

i'm fairly certain i need mechanical and electrical inspections, but a guy at the county's office said i may need structural too. it costs $366 just for the county's inspection, after all the work has been certified. he recommended getting the contractors to sign off first, then have the county out...

has anyone had to do anything similar recently, and if so, how bad was it?... any recommendations on independents to come out for the inspections?

this sucks

8/30/2012 1:39:07 PM

First, if you use a 3rd party inspector make sure Wake County accepts them (they probably do) and what their policy is regarding accepting 3rd party inspectors (they're usually specific). The standard inspections for something like that are framing, insulation, electrical, mechanical, plumbing if you have any, and drywall, but unfortunately the trade work is concealed behind the drywall (i'm assuming). No inspector will final that work out without seeing it so you may have to rip some of the drywall (again, assuming this is the installed wall covering) out before it'll pass final inspection.

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 6:47 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2012 6:45:01 PM

Counties typically don't like having their inspection process circumvented, and tend to be pretty tight about the rules for bringing an illegal non-conforming use up to code. That really sucks that the listing agent put that square footage in...it means they really didn't do due diligence.

Quote :

"he recommended getting the contractors to sign off first, then have the county out..."

Good Advice. Also be aware that you may need a building permit to do the work to bring up to code.


Just out of curiosity, how did you discover it was non-conforming? Your current listing agent or someone in the selling process?

8/30/2012 7:28:18 PM

Out of curiosity, how did this come up? In other words...At what point in putting the house on the market did you realize it wasn't permitted and why do you feel the need to pull permits if the previous owner sold it to you without doing the same?

[Edited on August 30, 2012 at 8:16 PM. Reason : l]

8/30/2012 8:15:47 PM

^^^ good point on the county policies on inspectors... i'm actually planning to walk over to the inspections office tomorrow to talk to someone and hopefully get more answers than i did over the phone... this is just a typical FROG - it's about 24 x 20

^^ they definitely didn't do their due diligence and our current agent has made multiple comments about not being able to believe that the listing agent listed it that way, and that our buyer's agent didn't check on it... i've actually known that it probably was non-conforming, simply b/c it's not included in our tax value - but while we've been living here, i've had no reason to be concerned with it. when we were narrowing down our agent choices, a couple of them brought it up immediately - currently, our MLS listing tells other agents that we are working on getting the permits. the funny part is that i found out from the county that a permit for the room was applied for in Jan 06 (they listed in Feb 06) and the county accepted the "plan" (which was probably just a sketch with dimensions) but nobody ever followed up

^ we knew from the beginning that it may be an issue, and we got mixed advice at first (we went on the market almost 3 months ago) - but after quite a few showings, there have been many buyers that have expressed concern. other than having to sell it, i personally don't have a problem with it not being permitted - i like paying less taxes too

what kind of costs with the independents might i be looking at? maybe $100 a piece, something like that?

8/30/2012 8:48:13 PM

This sounds like the basis for a lawsuit against the previous listing agent. If they lied about it and you only now found about it, you may be able to get around the due dilligence period.

8/31/2012 1:54:02 PM

well, according to the real estate commission (i called a couple of weeks ago), there's a SOL of 3 years, so there's not much we can do except file proper complaint, which really doesn't amount to much... we actually had our agent reach out to him, but he's been pretty non-responsive

8/31/2012 2:40:50 PM

Quote :

"^ we knew from the beginning that it may be an issue, and we got mixed advice at first (we went on the market almost 3 months ago) - but after quite a few showings, there have been many buyers that have expressed concern. other than having to sell it, i personally don't have a problem with it not being permitted - i like paying less taxes too "

Makes sense. The only reason I asked is that I went through something similar when looking at houses about six years ago. There was a room that had been built on the back of the house with some pretty odd construction techniques. I called the city and they told me no permits had been pulled for it. I ended up deciding not to make an offer and that was one of the bigger reasons. I just couldn't get a straight answer as to whether I could run into trouble down the road and find myself in a situation similar to yourself. Seemed like a bit of a grey area.

[Edited on August 31, 2012 at 2:46 PM. Reason : l]

8/31/2012 2:46:08 PM

Quote :

"This sounds like the basis for a lawsuit against the previous listing agent."

Been too long. And NCREC won't do step in on anything older than 3 years, as that's the length of time they require agents to keep records.

Quote :

"the listing agent listed it that way, and that our buyer's agent didn't check on it"

That's pretty sad that two agents blew it so badly...it means neither one actually measured square footage. Guess I'm not terribly suprised...in 2006, there was still a lot of dead wood real estate brokers. I bet they looked at the tax records and thought "enh, that sounds about right" before proceeding with their data entry.

Quote :

"i've actually known that it probably was non-conforming, simply b/c it's not included in our tax value - but while we've been living here, i've had no reason to be concerned with it."

What helps you on the buy-end usually burns you on the sell-end

9/1/2012 10:04:12 PM

It can be a royal pain in the ass. The county/city can come in at any time and after the fact and tell you that it wasn't permitted and you have to show that it's to code, bring it up to code, or tear it down. We converted a screen porch to a sunroom for an architect in Raleigh in the early 2000s and he acted as his own GC and was supposed to handle all permits (he had other stuff being done at the time). His daughter called me last year because he had passed away and she was trying to sell the house. She had been fighting it for 4-5 months already and had gotten nowhere. She ended up having to spend a bunch of money to bring people in to tear stuff out and have it all inspected. Worst part was that he had apparently done some other stuff himself and it met code when he built it but not last year. Good luck with it.

9/2/2012 1:02:03 AM

It is easy to throw the agents under the bus for this....but sellers are notorious for lying about their homes. There is also the chance that the addition pre-dated the last seller and they were not privy to any information that you don't have. If you can find the website that lists all the permits ever pulled and signed off since residential construction began in this area send me the link.

Do you need to count this square footage to make your listing competitive in the neighborhood? You could simply list the house as-is and say what you know (which is the room functions fine and you do not have any records pertaining to the permitting of it).

I have always heard that you cant really get a permit after the fact because everything the municipal/county inspectors look for is covered up. They come look at structural design, plumbing, electrical, and everything else that gets covered up by drywall, flooring, etc.

If you are going to have to demo this room to get a permit my advice would be don't bother getting the permit. There are few buyers that will rule out a home because of something like this, but most know finishing in a bonus room is not that big of a deal. If it does not look like crap, it probably was not built like crap either. If they really like the home they will still make a pass at it and let a home inspector look for problems during the due diligence period.

[Edited on September 5, 2012 at 12:49 AM. Reason : .]

9/5/2012 12:39:01 AM

Quote :

"There are few buyers that will rule out a home because of something like this, but most know finishing in a bonus room is not that big of a deal. If it does not look like crap, it probably was not built like crap either."

I expect the way things are today that the bank is going to be more of a problem than the buyer. If its so obvious that buyer's are spotting it at a showing (which I'm assuming b/c the OP is still kind of vague on how people even know its unpermitted) then the home inspector is almost certain to notice.

[Edited on September 5, 2012 at 6:49 AM. Reason : .]

9/5/2012 6:49:30 AM

Quote :

" If you can find the website that lists all the permits ever pulled and signed off since residential construction began in this area send me the link."

The website is http://www.mspection.com/Counties/Wake/wake.asp#. Anything that hasn't made it to the website is available directly through Planning & Development. It's pretty simple to tell without either though. A simple inquiry through GIS will give you a square footage AND sketch of the building as well as often listing improvements made. If it isn't there then that means it's not in the county's database so either it hasn't been entered yet or you didn't permit it. Since they want your tax money, it's usually entered relatively quickly.

Quote :

"If you are going to have to demo this room to get a permit my advice would be don't bother getting the permit. There are few buyers that will rule out a home because of something like this, but most know finishing in a bonus room is not that big of a deal. If it does not look like crap, it probably was not built like crap either."

BTW, most new buyers would be scared off by it because their realtor is going to explain to them that unpermitted means you don't know the quality of the work AND if the local jurisdiction finds out the new buyer is going to be responsible for showing it's to code. Exterior appearance doesn't mean anything either. Electrical alone is a big hazard. Lots of guys can do a decent job closing a wall up but don't know jack about proper electrical.

9/5/2012 8:21:02 AM

Quote :

"If it does not look like crap, it probably was not built like crap either."

I have to disagree. The difference between good contractors and bad contractors often isn't what you see or how it looks. Even bad contractors can figure out how to make things look OK - in fact that's what the bad contractors specialize in.

9/5/2012 8:28:19 AM

Unless the area that was finished was not designed to be finished (not structurally designed to be floored) all finishing a bonus room entails is electrical work, insulation, drywall, and Heat/AC.

Shoddy electrical work can burn the house down.

If the houses heating/cooling unit is undersized for the additional space that is not going to burn the house down, but usually results in needing a window or wall unit. Shitty insulation will cost money in higher utility bills.

The drywall is the only thing you can see once the room is finished, hence the reason for permits and inspections. There is always a good chance it was done correctly, but as long as you do not make any representations to a buyer that are not true you will stay out of trouble.

9/5/2012 12:16:17 PM

^It sounds like you're arguing against yourself now. Also, IIRC, you must go beyond not making untrue representations and actually disclose the fact that the addition is unpermitted.

9/5/2012 12:40:02 PM

Quote :

"There is also the chance that the addition pre-dated the last seller and they were not privy to any information that you don't have."

they were the original owner

Quote :

"Do you need to count this square footage to make your listing competitive in the neighborhood?"

yes... our asking price definitely reflects it

Quote :

"If its so obvious that buyer's are spotting it at a showing (which I'm assuming b/c the OP is still kind of vague on how people even know its unpermitted) then the home inspector is almost certain to notice."

they probably spot it before showings... our tax value is low, accounting for approx 1650 SF, whereas the MLS listing includes the bonus room (adds about 500 SF). also, our agent properly discloses the situation by having a note on MLS (visible by other agents) that says bonus room not permitted

Quote :

"BTW, most new buyers would be scared off by it because their realtor is going to explain to them that unpermitted means you don't know the quality of the work AND if the local jurisdiction finds out the new buyer is going to be responsible for showing it's to code."

exactly... and that's happened to us with prospective buyers at least twice already

I wanted to respond to those comments/questions, but I also wanted to post an update that makes me want to attempt a cartwheel... I walked over to the county's permitting/inspections department today (keep in mind, I've spoken with 3 different individuals at 3 different times over the past month or so). A really nice lady helped pull some information on the home and thought something looked odd (when compared to my info regarding the unfinished bonus room). We walked over together to the plans department and let the manager there investigate. Turns out, the bonus room has been permitted all along, and incorrectly input into the county tax records.

Per their recommendation, I then walked a couple of blocks over to the revenue department, told an appraiser my situation, emailed her my most recent appraisal that I had saved on my phone (while I was sitting there) and she said it would be handled today; the new correct square footage and tax value will show up online tomorrow. now, why they couldn't find this readily-available information while talking to me on the phone, i don't know

[Edited on September 5, 2012 at 3:45 PM. Reason : ]

9/5/2012 3:44:23 PM

Quote :

"Turns out, the bonus room has been permitted all along, and incorrectly input into the county tax records."

This does not surprise me in the least.

9/5/2012 6:57:42 PM

Woohoo! Really, I'm not too surprised that they didn't find it before. I work all over the state and often end up driving 2 hours to pull a permit just to find out some of the info I was given over the phone was incorrect necessitating a return trip. Planning and Inspections departments are typically poorly run by people that often don't even know exactly what they're supposed to do. You'd be amazed at how often I or one of my guys have to actually show inspectors the code book because they want to fail us because they THINK something is wrong. I even had a guy fail us because our engineering didn't show insulation and he wanted new engineering done showing structural support for the insulation.

9/5/2012 6:58:08 PM

Quote :

"you must go beyond not making untrue representations and actually disclose the fact that the addition is unpermitted."

This would be the case if the seller knew the bonus room was not permitted, if they do not know either way they can claim not to know either way. NC is a "caveat emptor" state, the seller can not lie, but they do have the option of making no representation at all.

9/5/2012 7:04:30 PM

Quote :

"our tax value is low, accounting for approx 1650 SF, whereas the MLS listing includes the bonus room (adds about 500 SF)."

Wow. I was under the understanding that you couldn't even advertise illegal non-conforming. Maybe its just a local MLS rule...

9/5/2012 10:38:51 PM

^yeah, i'm not sure about that, but all the agents we talked to and considered using all said the same thing: "we'll just list the square footage and add a note for the agents that the room isn't permitted"

^^ we definitely knew that it wasn't permitted (thought we knew anyways), and wanted to be honest... in the disclosure statement when we purchased, question 13 regarding additions or structural changes was checked 'no', not 'yes' or 'no representation' (the main reason we thought we got screwed a little)

per wakegov...

yesterday: 1672 SF, tax value: $186,876
today: 2108 SF, tax value: $200,477

[Edited on September 6, 2012 at 8:39 AM. Reason : ]

9/6/2012 8:37:46 AM