http://www.progressive.com/auto/snapshot-common-questions.aspx

Who in the hell would voluntarily opt-in for something like this?


...although at least that stuff is voluntary. What I really get irked by are the crash data recorders. From what I'm reading, the Germans and Koreans pretty much don't get into this; GM, Ford, and Toyota are the worst.

That could make me DQ the Prius from contention, for example, and only consider VW TDIs. VW says that they don't have EDRs; however, I'm seeing some conflicting information, in that they don't have EDRs per se, but still have accelerometers and also record speed at airbag deployment. That's not as bad as monitoring all the parameters (like how much throttle/brake was applied when, yaw angles, etc)...but still more of a privacy invasion than I would want.

*I also found out that my C5 has this shit. I thought it was only in newer cars, but I guess GM's been at the forefront.

9/17/2012 12:24:04 AM

Quote :

"Once you plug in the Snapshot device, we'll collect your Vehicle Identification Number and take note of whether the device stays plugged in, so we can alert you if it gets disconnected you don't unplug it your device and leave it in your garage while you are stoplight racing on Capital Blvd at four in the morning . The Snapshot device doesn't track your location or whether you're speeding, and it doesn't contain GPS technology"

Sounds like an accelerometer-based deal, not really "where you go" but "how you get there". To answer your question, they would do it "to save up to 30% on their car insurance". As long as it is voluntary, I am all for it. In fact, they should make a version with a built-in breathalizer for an additional discount.

[Edited on September 17, 2012 at 2:51 AM. Reason : tags]

9/17/2012 2:51:24 AM

I don't particularly agree with it either since I wouldn't mind a rate reduction and no increase for hard driving - so they say and for right now. To me, it's just one more avenue for the gubment to monitor me whether it be legally obtained or not. I'm not concerned with anything i do or affiliate with but I also don't like handing over another aspect of my personal life on a silver platter.

It's odd that it says isn't GPS based but yet as soon as it becomes unplugged they'll send you a notification email of such, so that tells me it is cell-phone tower based which isn't much different in terms of general tracking capability for this purpose. They'll still be able to track you until you hit a dead zone.

Who's agitatin my dots? You agitatin my dots?

9/17/2012 7:53:31 AM

Shit, I think I'll buy a new Golf TDI and remove the airbag modules...and then keep it forever, because it won't be long before datalogging is unavoidable.

I'm just not cool with some fucking ambulance chaser or prosecuter trying to screw me because I was speeding and some dipshit or drunk or whatever pulled or walked out in front of me. 65 in a 55 is against the law; being a moron and not paying attention is not. The latter would be the real cause of the crash, but I can see the former taking the fall for it.

9/17/2012 8:42:45 AM

exactly

9/17/2012 8:51:05 AM

Quote :

"I'm just not cool with some fucking ambulance chaser or prosecuter trying to screw me because I was speeding and some dipshit or drunk or whatever pulled or walked out in front of me. 65 in a 55 is against the law; being a moron and not paying attention is not."

I wouldn't sign up for voluntary logging that affects my insurance rates, but I see some positives in cars logging more data. You can't ignore the possibility that it might help you in a crash situation. More data is good IMO; especially data that can't be tampered with or exaggerated. Poor interpretation of said data is what you are really worried about.

I think most of us are well aware of the difference between going 85MPH on I-40 with an attentive driver in a capable car and some high schooler running 60 MPH through a neighborhood because he doesn't truly understand the risks (and yes, I'm speaking from experience on both sides of that). When your mom pulls onto the road and gets creamed by someone going double the speed limit you'll be glad to have all the data on the table for interpretation. That is, unless you think you should lose your family's estate to the family of the car she pulled out in front of.

Not that I would expect the state to use much reason, but I'd like to see something like 15MPH of leeway on most highways before speed becomes a factor in an accident. If you want to go faster than that I see no reason you shouldn't have to prove your case if you're involved in an accident.

[Edited on September 17, 2012 at 10:10 AM. Reason : s]

9/17/2012 10:08:31 AM

Been around for years. I would like to get my hands on one to look at how the days is stored and what the data is. should be fairly easy to compromise/game

9/17/2012 11:15:52 AM

years? they've been advertising it for less than one year...

9/17/2012 11:50:38 AM

He's talking about data logging by the car's computer. Had a buddy whose dad did this type of work for the insurance companies. At their request he'd find the cars in the junkyard and extract the data to determine throttle position, braking, speed, etc. during a crash. I believe it also came into play in analyzing the claims of "unintended acceleration" on Toyotas a few years back.

I have no idea if he worked for them by analyzing data in their client's cars or analyzing data in the other driver's cars though. Never really talked about it in detail with him.

[Edited on September 17, 2012 at 12:00 PM. Reason : l]

9/17/2012 11:59:32 AM

ohok. well sure

9/17/2012 12:41:41 PM

Not available in NC, btw

9/17/2012 1:57:51 PM

Not available required yet in NC, btw.

Fixed that for ya

9/17/2012 5:15:08 PM

^6 I think many of them have proprietary encryption, although it sounds like they're moving to a common standard, with a device by Bosch being the only game in town for accessing the information.

9/17/2012 7:22:33 PM

As I read more about these things, it SOUNDS like no German cars have EDRs, per se, but they do store some data in the event of a crash (airbag module, etc). It isn't readable by any commercially available equipment, but I guess VW could be subpoenaed to provide it. Of course, if it doesn't record anything but speed at impact or something, that's not that big of a deal--a good mechanical engineer could determine that without EDR data.

What's scary are the ones (most of them) that record pretty much every input and parameter for a period of time BEFORE an impact. I've searched a good bit and contacted 2 companies/investigators who specialize in crash reconstruction via EDR data. They were only marginally helpful--they obviously stand to lose from proliferation of this information--one of them explicitly derided the "privacy advocate community", saying that he wouldn't want them to get their hands on a list of what vehicles record what. Overall, it's easy to confirm the positive--that a vehicle DOES record x-parameters...but I'm having a bitch of a time determining what vehicles DON'T record, or confirming that they don't record anything worrisome.

German cars seem to be the safest bets from a privacy standpoint, but they all (modern ones, anyway) record some info. It's a matter of what and whether or not it's cause for concern. I've also found conflicting information on the Korean marques as well as some Hondas (older than a couple of years, anyway).

9/29/2012 12:08:15 AM

I think there's some mixups and confusion.

There are three ways you can get this kind of data

1) read regular OBD II diagnostic data--basically anybody can do this with relatively little effort
2) passively intercept CAN messages and then reverse engineer what they mean. Most likely the OEM will be the only one with the full database information
3) read memory addresses directly off control modules. The supplier of the module will have access to this, and small groups of people within the OEM might.

The Progressive Insurance branded thing in the first post plugs into the OBD port and it can only read legislated diagnostic parameters across the bus. This includes rpm, vehicle speed, throttle position, engine load, etc. These typically update at a slow sample rate---10 samples per second at most usually. The data is only sent out when special data requests are sent. SAE J1979 explains what's needed--basically anything out there can record this and save it.

Lots of other shit travels across the various data networks during normal operation. There can be multiple networks running at different speeds. This data includes tire pressure, steering angle, yaw rate, torque requests, tire slip, all sorts of stuff. With the right equipment, anybody can passively listen to this stuff. If you don't have an accurate CAN database file (.dbc) it just comes through as a bunch of hexadecimal nonsense. You can also send out CAN commands to different modules if you know what you're doing. I can name certain companies that specialize in reverse engineering this stuff. They're not cheap--call up certain engineering consulting companies for this kind of work and it could cost millions of dollars due to the labor and equipment involved.

Requesting memory addresses from say an airbag or stability control module is just like trying to get your stock engine computer tuned for performance purposes. It requires the right hardware, knowledge of memory addresses (ASAP2 file usually, .a2l format), and understanding of what you're looking at. OEMs and suppliers are very protective of this stuff--only tiny groups of people within these companies have access to it.

What I'm saying is, somebody can voluntarily install a universal OBD datalogger but nobody is going to give the real information up unless the government requires them to. It's not something to get too worried about. Whoever says they've reverse engineered event data recorders are full of shit or they have very deep pockets.

9/29/2012 3:49:33 PM

I'd be more concerned about the GPS and accelerometer in my iPhone.

10/1/2012 6:42:42 PM

Incidentally, I'm reading up on jailbreaking solutions there

10/1/2012 7:27:40 PM

^^^ The more I think about it, it's unavoidable to have a car that doesn't record anything, unless you either get something 20+ years old, or physically remove the electronic modules. Really, though, basic airbag module data isn't terribly scary, if it's just recording delta-velocity or "g"s at impact, and maybe even speed at impact. Most of that stuff can be calculated after the fact (at least "close enough") without any datalogging (I had thought about buying a TDI, then yanking the airbag modules out, but I think it wouldn't buy me much).

It's when they record all sorts of other shit pre-impact that I flatly refuse to have it in my car (particularly speed plots pre-impact), at least for anything that I drive routinely.

It sounds like I'm largely limited to German cars, maybe some Hondas and Korean marques that are a few years old. Toyotas within the last decade, as well as just about anything domestic within the last couple of decades, are pretty much the worst offenders.

10/1/2012 8:25:25 PM

i'd like a GPS datalogger on my car...for personal use

yes, i CAN use my phone, but i'd like something integrated into the car's electrical that's on and logging when the car's on, and shuts off when the car's off

i'm a data junkie, though...i'd use it in court if it benefited me somehow, but i wouldn't want the other side or my insurance company to have the info

10/1/2012 9:29:52 PM

well sure, that's different. they can't subpoena it if they don't know it exists. that can more or less only benefit you.

10/1/2012 9:47:49 PM

I'm currently logging work related travel for deductions with an app on my iPhone. It would be nice to have some sort of logging device built into my truck.

There will probably be some sort of Siri-like solution in 5 years to do that. Push a button, say where you're going, it automatically knows you're leaving the office/house etc and could produce an annual spreadsheet. I wonder if it's too late to run to the patent office?

10/1/2012 9:55:39 PM

Duke would you really want to take the airbags out? Seems like an uneven trade-off... You die but hey they didn't record any info!!1

But seriously, what have you found about the phone stuff? I'm skurred that they are recording from the mic/camera/gps constantly. I don't think they are necessarily, but it's not a stretch to say that they could.

10/2/2012 2:10:03 PM

http://jalopnik.com/5949390/melrose-place-star-might-go-to-jail-because-of-her-suvs-event-data-recorder

Quote :

"Melrose Place star Amy Locane-Bovenizer faces vehicular manslaughter charges for a DUI case that killed one and left another injured. What's different from other cases is that for the first time, a car's black box has been admitted as evidence."

Not that I'm suggesting she should go free, but it seems like the DUI and clearly at fault accident would be enough to convict. Anyways here's what Duke was talking about in action.

[Edited on October 7, 2012 at 10:01 AM. Reason : Blech typing]

10/7/2012 10:00:26 AM

^^ I wouldn't really want to, but I will not have a car that records pre-crash data, period. (other than maybe a truck or jeep or something that I only drive occasionally). If that means physically removing modules, then so be it.

10/7/2012 11:57:22 AM

Quote :

"I'm just not cool with some fucking ambulance chaser or prosecuter trying to screw me because I was speeding and some dipshit or drunk or whatever pulled or walked out in front of me. 65 in a 55 is against the law; being a moron and not paying attention is not. The latter would be the real cause of the crash, but I can see the former taking the fall for it. "

so many things wrong with this logic, i had to stop reading

10/7/2012 8:24:43 PM

not surprising since you live in the biggest nanny state in the union.

10/7/2012 11:14:49 PM

Quote :

"nobody is going to give the real information up unless the government requires them to. It's not something to get too worried about. "

No, that's the problem--the government (courts) require them to, both for criminal and civil purposes.

In some cases (most anything domestic, newer Toyotas, Hondas, etc), the EDR can be read with a Bosch scanner. In other cases, all the data is there, but it's encrypted and can only be accessed by a manufacturer's proprietary scanner, that is generally controlled at the corporate level--even dealerships often can't access it. However, in these cases, the manufacturers just provide the data at the request of courts (or the NHTSA, etc). That's not meaningfully any better.

To be safe, you just need to ensure that your car never records that data to begin with. All the talk about "the consumer owns the data, blah blah blah" is a bunch of shit--it's true up until anyone has any real reason to collect it, at which point it's just a minor legal proceeding away. Aside from that, if you total the car and the insurance company takes it, it's then legally their data altogether.

I think that recording only impact data is probably acceptable (although I'd rather not have that, either). The pre-crash stuff is what I absolutely would not accept in my car. As of about a month ago (by law), that limits new cars to German marques (and the ones they own, like Mini/Bentley/etc), as well as Ferrari and Maserati. Everyone else has sold out and sucked Federal dick. Supposedly, it's all gonna be federally mandated for the U.S. market as of 2015 if nothing changes.

10/9/2012 12:30:49 AM