Support or no?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/puerto-rico-votes-on-whether-to-change-relationship-with-us-elects-governor-and-legislators/2012/11/06/d87278ae-288b-11e2-aaa5-ac786110c486_story.html

I'm cool with it if its what they want to do. Change in flag would be weird and 102 senators would throw me off a bit.

11/7/2012 9:13:24 PM

i'd be fucking pissed if they got it before DC

11/7/2012 9:27:46 PM

Who the hell wants DC to get statehood?

11/7/2012 9:30:04 PM

Fuck DC.

What would this change tho other than the flag and house and senate numbers? I assume they would have to pay federal taxes. Getting to puerto rico is already easier than getting to hawaii from where I live regardless of statehood.

11/7/2012 9:33:31 PM

um DC wants statehood. they've been asking for it for years.

and they get routinely screwed. the people there have one non-voting member of congress and no senator - PLUS their entire budget is controlled by the US Congress.

it's some bullshit

and no, not everyone who lives in DC works for the government or is in politics.

11/7/2012 9:34:57 PM

If DC wants the benefits of statehood they should just go back to being part of Maryland.

11/7/2012 9:40:41 PM

they were half in maryland and half in virginia - but that was the late 1800s.... /]

11/7/2012 9:42:27 PM

Bring them both in! I'm a fan of even numbers!

11/7/2012 10:01:40 PM

Quote :

" I assume they would have to pay federal taxes."

They already do, including FICA.

11/8/2012 8:14:53 AM

This is interesting, it could be pretty huge.

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 8:28 AM. Reason : ]

11/8/2012 8:27:52 AM

I've yet to hear one good argument for why DC shouldn't be a state.


It is complete bullshit. Taxation without representation.

11/8/2012 8:32:13 AM

I'm down for more states.

11/8/2012 8:33:16 AM

^^ Well Wake county can't just up and decide we want to be a state and get 2 senators to go along with it. If DC wants representation they should join Maryland.

11/8/2012 8:37:21 AM

Like I said, I've yet to hear a good argument as to why DC shouldn't be a state.

11/8/2012 9:03:37 AM

A) its too small to be a state. B) it exists to support the federal government which means any voting rights it would have would be super corrupted by its own self interest.

if dc wants representation it should be done as part of another state.

11/8/2012 9:22:34 AM

re: puerto rico, if their citizens vote for it then im all for them becoming a state.

11/8/2012 9:29:49 AM

A) small, yes.... Though I don't see the physical size being the important factor here. More importantly, it's more populated than the entire state of Wyoming.

B) in purpose, yes it does exist to support the federal government. But there are a ton of people that live in DC that have nothing to do with the federal government. The mass majority of DC residents dont. It is not right to completely discount and sent their voting rights.

11/8/2012 9:35:10 AM

then have them join maryland. its small size would mean 2 senators basically in the pocket of the federal government. that would be bad.

11/8/2012 9:37:12 AM

People ITT are correct that the relationship to the federal government isn't a valid reason to deny people representation.

Quote :

"A) small, yes.... Though I don't see the physical size being the important factor here. More importantly, it's more populated than the entire state of Wyoming."

So the problem should be obvious. We have a house where representation is proportional to statehood, which is arbitrary. It's categorically unfair to people in states with greater population. Right? This is the very thing you argued.

If statehood could be granted on the basis of the desire of the citizenry, it would create a race to segmentation. NC could just break into two states (wouldn't Northwest Carolina be obvious?) and correspondingly gain more political power.

The senate has a lot of power. The status quo isn't fair. Allowing small populations in ambiguously defined jurisdictions to decide on statehood is fixing a wrong with another wrong.

You said you haven't heard a valid argument. This is clearly a valid argument.

11/8/2012 9:55:23 AM

Quote :

"If DC wants the benefits of statehood they should just go back to being part of Maryland. "

I'd support a constitutional amendment saying that for the purposes of federal electoral politics (president, senate, representatives), D.C. be counted as part of Maryland.

11/8/2012 10:30:06 AM

^^ I'm not so sure I understand what you're suggesting.

Is it for Maryland to annex DC as a whole?

FWIW, I don't think that is the worst idea...as it would give DC residents representation in the house and senate. However,it seems to suffer from the same flaw that you're arguing against in that then a state would encompass the federal government.... Thereby making it susceptible to the same corruption.


Is it to "annex" the residents of DC into another state so that they have representation, but not the government?

I'm having trouble imagining ho that would work.


As it stands, a lot of U.S. Citizens have:
-1 non-voting member of the house, who they basically tell to. shut up when theyre tired of her,

-zero senate seats,

-taxes just likelike every other American

-a city who's services shut down when congressional leaders fail to pass a national budget

-congressional leaders from OTHER states trying to enact laws that affect DC residents because it is tied to the federal
government.



It's not right, and it's not fair. Also, mrfrog has a stupid face.
P.S., I typed this on my phone and refuse to go back and correct any mistakes.

11/8/2012 10:54:46 AM

How the fuck is DC going to corrupt congress with the one or two congressmen/electoral votes it would gonna get, lmao.

"For our first order of business, the entire defense budget will be redirected to fixing beltway potholes."

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 11:00 AM. Reason : .]

11/8/2012 10:59:57 AM

Quote :

"If statehood could be granted on the basis of the desire of the citizenry, it would create a race to segmentation. NC could just break into two states (wouldn't Northwest Carolina be obvious?) and correspondingly gain more political power."

so would you make that exact same argument about puerto rico?

Quote :

"-taxes just likelike every other American"

also DC's income tax is one of the highest in the nation


[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

11/8/2012 11:03:01 AM

Quote :

"Is it to "annex" the residents of DC into another state so that they have representation, but not the government?"

What? No.

The proposition I was speaking of was just merging DC into Maryland, totally and completely. There are still federal grounds, but there are federal grounds in other states too, so whatever.

If DC was instead allowed to become its own state it would be unfair to the rest of us, just like how the Senate is already grossly unfair.

11/8/2012 11:05:16 AM

Quote :

"If DC was instead allowed to become its own state it would be unfair to the rest of us, just like how the Senate is already grossly unfair."

600,000 people gaining representation in congress is unfair to everyone else in the country, but it's fair to allow rand paul to amend legislation that would meddle in the affairs of district residents who have no say about anything

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 11:11 AM. Reason : .]

11/8/2012 11:11:04 AM

The RDU metro area has over 1,000,000 people are we don't get our own exclusive senators.

Maybe the reason they're in their special under-represented status is because they prefer it over the alternative of being a part of a large state like the rest of us. I don't doubt they would prefer being their own state, but that's irrelevant.

11/8/2012 11:16:23 AM

Quote :

" The proposition I was speaking of was just merging DC into Maryland, totally and completely. There are still federal grounds, but there are federal grounds in other states too, so whatever."

My post saw really for shaggy, but whatevs....we are all family. Hmmm, yeah man.....the majority of DC is private property, restaurants, businesses, homes, etc.

not federal buildings.

Just like every other s

It seems like you all are having trouble coming to grips with the fact that DC exists as an entity outside of the federal government.

11/8/2012 11:17:16 AM

DC was established to be a non-state entity to house the Federal Government; anyone who lives there either knows that or should be educated on that fact. Living in DC is a choice; if someone really cares about having representation in Congress, they also have the choice to move. Making DC a state just because of the ignorance of its population is not a valid argument for statehood.

As far as Puerto Rico, they want in, let them in. Same for Guam and any other US territory/commonwealth/protectorate.

11/8/2012 11:19:08 AM

Quote :

"the majority of DC is private property, restaurants, businesses, homes, etc. "

Are you intentionally trolling me?

I never said anything to the contrary. I was talking about federal lands because I was predicting objections on the grounds of "but what happens to the national mall?" sort of stuff. I know what DC is.

11/8/2012 11:20:00 AM

To anyone unsure whether DC and the Federal Government are very, very different things:

11/8/2012 11:28:35 AM

^ the african american population is below 50% now

11/8/2012 11:31:52 AM

Nope, not trolling at all. Just pointing out that in your description of other states as having some federal grounds, separate from the rest of the state....you're also describing DC as having some federal grounds that are completely separate from the rest of the area.

The only difference is that those other states have representation, where DC residents do not.

11/8/2012 11:37:16 AM

Somehow I doubt it's much closer to being in line with the number of African Americans in congress, or the nation, for that matter.

11/8/2012 11:37:35 AM

Quote :

" The RDU metro area has over 1,000,000 people are we don't get our own exclusive senators."

But they do have representation, my good buddy. 600,000+ taxpayers in the nation's capitol do not.

11/8/2012 11:49:39 AM

puerto rico doesn't want to be a state.

11/8/2012 11:50:16 AM

They literally just voted on it and said they do

11/8/2012 11:52:19 AM

lol why they actually don't pay taxes right?

11/8/2012 11:56:06 AM

Actually they do already pay Federal taxes and FICA as well.

11/8/2012 12:08:10 PM

I don't think anyone doesn't get the idea that DC contains more than the government and that it is a major metropolitan area in its own right. It's just that we don't believe that entitles it to statehood.

Those demographics aren't particularly diffferent from many other US metropolitan areas and none of them are their own state.

If they want representation, we could drastically shrink the District of Columbia to only include the Federal Government controlled parts, and the rest of the city could be Washtington, Maryland (or Columbia, Maryland).

11/8/2012 12:11:34 PM

Quote :

"But they do have representation, my good buddy. 600,000+ taxpayers in the nation's capitol do not."

So you agree that the most reasonable solution would be to absorb DC into another state, so they have similar representation to Raleigh.

I was about to say "no one is arguing for the status quo", but that's wrong. Førte is.

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 12:19 PM. Reason : ]

11/8/2012 12:19:07 PM

^^ but no one who maintains that argument ever strictly defines what you must have in order to be considered a state. to me it just seems more like the argument is that states are big, DC is not big, therefore DC cannot be a state

and there's already a columbia, maryland

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 12:22 PM. Reason : .]

11/8/2012 12:21:59 PM

^^^For that matter they could just give their non-voting delegate the right to vote in the House. They could do just like they did when they added Alaska and Hawaii, when they increased the number temporarily until they re-apportioned the seats based on population. If Puerto Rico is added, this is likely what they would do in that case. I would see no problem in that.

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason : ]

11/8/2012 12:22:50 PM

^ a lot of people in DC would be ok with that and budget autonomy without statehood

11/8/2012 12:24:57 PM

Quote :

" So you agree that the most reasonable solution would be to absorb DC into another state, so they have similar representation to Raleigh."

I have already posted my thoughts on that very subject. In this very thread. On this very page.

11/8/2012 12:28:59 PM

^^^^ So let's hear the argument for why it SHOULD be a state, rather than annexed by a current state.

[Edited on November 8, 2012 at 12:30 PM. Reason : ]

11/8/2012 12:29:40 PM

The most obvious argument against them being absorbed into another state is that they already have an entire administrative structure built and custom-fitted to their existence as a distinct entity. I don't see why the entire structure of their self-governance should be retooled just because some people think (erroneously) that there's some minimum size for a state.

11/8/2012 1:21:42 PM

^I agree. I'm not in favor of giving them statehood, but voting representation does not bother me. Let their seat in the House vote and they have a voice.

11/8/2012 1:23:43 PM

Quote :

"For our first order of business, the entire defense budget will be redirected to fixing beltway potholes." the defense contracting company i own here in dc"

ftfy. dc statehood would basically install 2 lobbyists into the senate.

11/8/2012 1:30:09 PM

They don't have a state government or any of the things that entails. It would all have to be re-tooled anyway. In fact it would be more difficult to re-tool DC for statehood than to simply strip away the layers of government that will be no longer needed once they are an incorporated county and city in Maryland.

They could be absorbed much more easily than giving them statehood.

11/8/2012 1:35:57 PM

Quote :

"They don't have a state government or any of the things that entails. "

Actually they do, they govern themselves thanks to an act passed in 1973, although Congress can still override them when it wishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_District_of_Columbia

Quote :

"In fact it would be more difficult to re-tool DC for statehood than to simply strip away the layers of government that will be no longer needed once they are an incorporated county and city in Maryland."

You're saying this on the basis of...what? It seems pretty cut and dry to me to convert it to a State: Eliminate congress's override, give them their representatives. Done.

Quote :

"They could be absorbed much more easily than giving them statehood."

Stripping away layers of unneeded government is easier than the two step process I laid out above?

11/8/2012 1:39:49 PM