http://www.wral.com/teachers-group-to-mount-legal-challenge-to-budget-proposal/12688596/

Not really sure what good this will do for the budget. I have yet to see an explanation for that. My father was a teacher, and a damn good one, and I have many teacher friends, so I don't know how I feel about the potential of ending teacher tenure. Thoughts?

And if this needs to be in the other NC GOP watch or whatever thread, feel free to lock.

7/22/2013 5:42:20 PM

Ending tenure will get rid of only a very small minority of really bad teachers. It will create a lot of uncertainty for most of our best teachers. Couple that with all the other ways we've shitted on teachers over the last few years, and otherwise attempted to dismantle public education, and one can see how we will start to lose a lot of our best teachers and teaching prospects.




[Edited on July 22, 2013 at 6:30 PM. Reason : A public education is guaranteed in the State Constitution - why would you want to dismantle that?]

7/22/2013 6:26:52 PM

In the years I was teaching, I rarely saw any teachers kept around simply because the school couldn't get rid of them. I had tenure, as did a number of other teachers at my school, but the biggest problem we had with people no one wanted around were administrators. There were plenty of instances where administrators who were shitty had been sent to us because they had to go somewhere.

But I think saying people were kept around simply because they had tenure is pushing it, because we have some of the lowest teacher pay in the country (maybe the lowest now) and we also severely limited lateral entry options a few years ago. I would doubt if there are many people banging down the doors to teach here. I don't know what exactly is the solution to all of our education issues, but I don't see freezing pay, eliminating tenure, and vouchers as the solution. But then again, I'm not a North Carolina conservative legislator.

7/22/2013 8:11:17 PM

Regardless of whether tenure is a good thing or bad as it relates to teaching, I just don't see how it is that much of an impact to the state's budget. Ok lets say we get rid of tenure, and lets say there's about 1000 teachers statewide that have tenure that need to go - their test scores are repeatedly abysmally low, they have infractions on their record, whatever criteria you want to use - they need to go. Lets say the majority of them make the average NC teacher's salary, according to the NEA Rankings report from 2012, of 45,947 (46th lowest btw). That equals about 45 million the first year they cull these teachers that "need to go." Assuming that subsequent years would yield only a smattering of these "need to go" teachers, 45 million in a budget of 20 billion is not breaking the bank.

It is just gonna rankle more feathers than do anything else.

And I'm sure my example of 1000 teachers is an extreme. I doubt there would be that many teachers performing that poorly, but I just pulled that number out of my ass.

7/22/2013 9:27:51 PM

I've not commented because i'm obviously biased, but to hell with it.

Tenure is a myth. It is something that teachers went through a rigorous process to attain, and all it really did was give them a chance to defend themselves if they were let go. It was not an invite to the gravy train like so many think it was.

That being said, I'm not necessarily opposed to getting rid of tenure... the travesty in this situation is they have effectively made teachers temporary employees who have to earn a contract renewal every year (or few years) in direct competition with their coworkers. This DIRECTLY contrasts with the mission of teachers, which is to collaborate with their coworkers for the benefit of students. I don't know of ANY other state employees who are forced into temporary employment and the job insecurity teachers are being subjected to.

My bigger problem with the new budget in regards to education is that they are ELIMINATING the monetary incentive for teachers to further their education and get a master's degree. I personally know several teachers who were planning to get their masters degrees to make them more effective teachers (on their own dime) who are either not going to do it, or are going to get their master's and teach in a different state. This is going to drain NC of the type of teacher who would take the initiative to strive for self improvement.

Teachers are being shat upon in NC, and morale is already at all time lows, and I am frankly scared to see where education in the state is going.

[Edited on July 22, 2013 at 10:04 PM. Reason : ]

7/22/2013 10:03:18 PM

We do need higher pay for teachers.

That sounds good to most teachers--most of them don't realize that the purpose of the higher pay would be to replace many them with people who are more capable.



As far as tenure, what makes teaching special? Few other professions have tenure or anything similar. Is there any good argument that teachers rate any special protection?

7/22/2013 10:10:26 PM

Quote :

"most of them don't realize that the purpose of the higher pay would be to replace many them with people who are more capable."

you don't realize that the purpose of the higher pay would be to encourage capable people to enter the profession

7/22/2013 10:49:31 PM

Quote :

"Ending tenure will get rid of only a very small minority of really bad teachers. It will create a lot of uncertainty for most of our best teachers. Couple that with all the other ways we've shitted on teachers over the last few years, and otherwise attempted to dismantle public education, and one can see how we will start to lose a lot of our best teachers and teaching prospects."

Exactly this.

It also seemed to be an important piece of the rally in Raleigh today.

"Moral Monday demonstrators focus on voter rights and protest cuts to public education"
http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/07/22/3049031/moral-monday-demonstrators-focus.html

7/22/2013 10:52:11 PM

.

[Edited on July 22, 2013 at 11:03 PM. Reason : double post]

7/22/2013 11:03:06 PM

^^^ Same thing

7/22/2013 11:07:22 PM

Hey Smath, did I read that you said they were getting rid of the increased pay scale for graduate degrees? Does that mean a teacher with a master's entering the profession would make the same amount as someone with a bachelor's degree?

I came very close to teaching, and I was planning on going back and getting my master's at some point.

7/22/2013 11:09:19 PM

Quote :

"The start of the tenure movement paralleled similar labor struggles during the late 19th century. Just as steel and auto workers fought against unsafe working conditions and unlivable wages, teachers too demanded protection from parents and administrators who would try to dictate lesson plans or exclude controversial materials like Huck Finn from reading lists. In 1887, nearly 10,000 teachers from across the country met in Chicago for the first-ever conference of the National Educator's Association, now one of the country's most powerful teachers' unions. The topic of "teacher's tenure" led the agenda. By the turn of the century, tenure had become a hot-button issue that some politicians preferred to avoid. In 1900, the Democratic Party of New York blasted their rivals in the Times for taking up the issue, writing, "We deprecate the tendency manifested by the Republican party of dragging the public school system of the State into politics." New Jersey became the first state to pass tenure legislation when, in 1910, it granted fair-dismissal rights to college professors. During the suffrage movement of the 1920s — when female teachers could be fired for getting married or getting pregnant or (gasp) wearing pants — such rights were extended to elementary and high school teachers as well. But where the tenure track for college professors can require a record of published research and probationary periods of up to 10 years, K-12 teachers can win tenure after working as little as two years in some states. And thanks to the rigid testing requirements put in place by the No Child Left Behind Act, the academic freedom that tenure was meant to protect has been severely curtailed. Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1859505,00.html#ixzz2ZpuuLsQW"

7/22/2013 11:38:08 PM

*is 33rd in education*

*cuts teacher pay*

7/23/2013 12:21:52 AM

^^ I would argue that the proliferation of information and communication remedies the vast majority of those concerns, along with other legislation protecting against discrimination. If a teacher got fired now for wearing pants, getting pregnant, or teaching Huck Finn, you wouldn't need a hearing--the public outrage would fix it.

If there was no cost to a tenure system, then that would be one thing. Only an idiot would think that there is never a case where it proves beneficial. The question is if it's a net positive, and I think that's highly suspect, at best.

Again, pretty much nobody else has such a system. Why teachers?

7/23/2013 1:14:56 AM

^I think teachers have the problem of everyone claiming to know how to do their job better than they do. Its not an uncommon problem, except in their case its politicians playing games and trying to "fix" things. Really I think it evolved from differentiating between teachers that have "passed" the probationary phase of their employment with all of the assessments so they start getting more benefit of the doubt, same as a seasoned employee might be treated (the tenure process is just a little more formal). And it needs to be more formal due to the high turnover in the profession.

The absolutely worse outcome from dropping tenure would be the uncertainty it could create for teachers, depending on how their "contracts" are structured. The teaching population could be ramped up or down (no need to fire, just don't renew the contracts!!!) to meet a need, or play political games, or just out of spite. Lots of teachers, all ready making jack shit, don't need this extra worry.

In the case of NC, I think if you put tenure in a vacuum and got rid of it, most teachers wouldn't be that up in arms about it. Sure its a small perk to the job, but as Smath said, its hardly the gravy train some make it out to be. What you HAVE to do is take the elimination of tenure in context with all the other bullshit this budget does to teachers and the general attitude of the GA toward education in this state. Its really just another straw on the camel's back.

7/23/2013 8:46:28 AM

tenure was already mostly a myth, it already wasn't worth a lot post-NCLB

the other changes are worse than removing tenure

7/23/2013 9:04:37 AM

Quote :

"Hey Smath, did I read that you said they were getting rid of the increased pay scale for graduate degrees? Does that mean a teacher with a master's entering the profession would make the same amount as someone with a bachelor's degree?"

correct. teachers who have decided to go back to school to further their education (on their own dime) to become better teachers are no longer going to be rewarded for doing so.

7/23/2013 9:20:56 AM

No increase in teacher pay, no compensation for a Masters, and no tenure. Good luck keeping good teachers in NC. The exodus is about to begin.

7/23/2013 10:02:39 AM

I think instead of begin you mean accelerate

That's fine though, the entire point of this is to push students to private schools so we can shovel public money to private companies. Yay privatization!

7/23/2013 10:20:08 AM

^^ where will these teachers go? Not everyone can afford to move to where teaching jobs may be available.

7/23/2013 10:49:31 AM

they always have the option to leave the profession entirely, they can do that without moving

7/23/2013 10:51:56 AM

Smath74

Is that just in NC? And would current teachers be grandfathered in?

or is there a good link to more information on that change?

7/23/2013 11:19:23 AM

he's referencing the same new state legislation, so it would apply to this state.
http://www.wral.com/senate-seeks-to-end-pay-bump-for-advanced-teaching-degrees/12482829/

also cuts teaching assistants, cuts class size caps, adds vouchers, etc... the standard GOP/ALEC stuff

7/23/2013 11:42:01 AM

Quote :

"Smath74 Is that just in NC? And would current teachers be grandfathered in? or is there a good link to more information on that change?"

Yes, it's part of the new legislation like ^ said. The scope of grandfathering in is unclear... it looks like people who were already paid on the master's scale will continue to be paid at that rate, at least through next school year. I already have my master's, so this part won't impact me directly, but the quality of teachers is going to drastically decline, and it really screws over teachers who are currently in grad school or who just graduated.

and to whoever said "where will they go?"... they might move to other states... NC has a lot of teachers from out of state who have no ties to NC other than they decided to move here because of college/etc who would have no problem leaving. Others will simply leave the profession. (there are teachers already leaving in droves)

http://ncleg.net/sessions/2013/budget/2013/S402-CCSLEx-4.pdf

Quote :

"15 PHASE OUT CERTAIN TEACHER SALARY SUPPLEMENTS 16 SECTION 8.22. Notwithstanding Section 35.11 of this act, no teachers or 17 instructional support personnel, except for certified school nurses and instructional support 18 personnel in positions for which a master's degree is required for licensure, shall be paid on the 19 "M" salary schedule or receive a salary supplement for academic preparation at the six-year 20 degree level or at the doctoral degree level for the 2014-2015 school year, unless they were 21 paid on that salary schedule or received that salary supplement prior to the 2014-2015 school 22 year."

[Edited on July 23, 2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2013 12:36:45 PM

my wife completed her masters and national boards certification last year and this basically means she did it for nothing. she'll probably leave the profession if she has to take a significant pay cut (as if she makes much already).

[Edited on July 23, 2013 at 1:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2013 1:28:23 PM

^actually after re-reading the master's pay might go into effect next year. National Boards still count. Read the thing I posted above... what's your interpretation?

Quote :

"SECTION 35.11.(a) The following monthly salary schedules shall apply for the 19 2013-2014 fiscal year to certified personnel of the public schools who are classified as teachers. 20 The schedules contain 37 steps, with each step corresponding to one year of teaching 21 experience. Public school employees paid according to this salary schedule and receiving 22 NBPTS certification or obtaining a masters degree shall not be prohibited from receiving the 23 appropriate increase in salary. Provided, however, teachers employed during the 2012-2013 24 school year who did not work the required number of months to acquire an additional year of 25 experience shall not receive a decrease in salary as otherwise would be required by the salary 26 schedule below"

reading that makes it sound like the master's pay supplement won't go away until the next school year, so your wife should be good.

[Edited on July 23, 2013 at 1:52 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2013 1:48:39 PM

as I read it, her current pay is safe through the 2014-2015 school year. afterwards, not sure what they'll decide.

7/23/2013 1:54:41 PM

yeah that's what I interpret.

7/23/2013 1:56:24 PM

I wouldn't be so opposed to it if it was a state employee mandatory pay cut across the board. here it seems like the NC legislature believes we just have a huge supply of shitty teachers and private school is the cure for failing students.

[Edited on July 23, 2013 at 1:58 PM. Reason : ]

7/23/2013 1:57:42 PM

one of the statistics cited is the graduation rate... that graduation rates haven't dropped (or have slightly improved?) since teacher pay was frozen half a decade ago. The problem I have with that is what does graduation MEAN? a piece of paper is not the summation of the richness of knowledge and experience you have gained throughout school. These things might not be as easy to measure for a politician on a sheet of paper, but are definitely being affected.

7/23/2013 2:04:30 PM

they also haven't (ever) considered special education teachers in their statistical analysis.

7/23/2013 2:17:11 PM

What about teachers trying to pay bills and make a living? No raise in 5 years is kind of ridiculous.

7/23/2013 10:28:03 PM

they could do what other folks might do in that situation

find another job sit around and whine about it

7/23/2013 10:51:27 PM

strike

7/23/2013 11:02:27 PM

^^ What's the problem with "whining" about work conditions before going all the way and quitting?

I think it's only fair to the employer (in this case the state) to let them know that you are unsatisfied with current conditions before you just quit on them. If they refuse to make any changes then sure, seek out employment in another field or in another location where you are more fairly compensated.

Soon maybe we will have high school drop outs teaching high school classes.

[Edited on July 24, 2013 at 12:35 AM. Reason : ]

7/24/2013 12:34:42 AM

The less money we waste on the next generation here, the better. Can we just send our education money overseas instead? Those are the students that will be actually working.

Of course, you could always

Quote :

"strike"

.

Send those hellions into the streets for a couple of weeks and they'll pay any price to have them babysat again.

[Edited on July 24, 2013 at 6:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2013 5:55:58 PM

Clarification:

1) Tenure in NC doesn't mean what you think it means. It only requires that an administrator have reason for firing a teacher. Acceptable reasons for firing a tenured teacher:

-Inadequate Performance
-Neglect of Duty
-Failure to Fulfill the Statutory Duties of a Teacher
-Insubordination
-Failure to Comply with the Reasonable Requirements of the Board
-Immorality
-Use of Alcohol and Drugs
-Conviction of a Felony or Crime Involving Moral Turpitude
-False Application Information
-Incapacity
-Failure to Keep Certificate Current

http://sogpubs.unc.edu/electronicversions/pdfs/leps19.pdf


2) To say that NC teachers "haven't had a raise" in five years is to misrepresent our scenario; our pay has been frozen for five years. 18% of all NC teachers are still making 1st year pay.





[Edited on July 25, 2013 at 5:26 PM. Reason : ]

7/25/2013 5:24:22 PM

^and that's BEFORE this legislation

7/25/2013 7:50:36 PM

So the main concern about tenure is from older teachers worried they'll be replaced with lower earning first year teachers purely because of budget cuts, right?

7/26/2013 8:36:22 AM

I don't think there is a lot of concern about tenure, most of the anger I've seen is about the other stuff

7/26/2013 8:38:49 AM

Yeah, I realize that.

My wife doesn't really care about the tenure part at this point. And I don't think my parents are concerned about it either since they're so close to retirement.

Quote :

"Regardless of whether tenure is a good thing or bad as it relates to teaching, I just don't see how it is that much of an impact to the state's budget."

I'm really responding to this. Eliminating tenure makes it easier to dismiss higher earning teachers (for whatever bullshit reason they can come up with other than "They make a lot more money") and hire new teachers you can keep on a first year salary pay schedule for 5+ years.

7/26/2013 8:53:22 AM

But its already pretty easy to do that, tenure was eroded years ago

7/26/2013 8:55:28 AM

Well okay then. So I guess I'm with the OP. What's the big deal about doing it now? What does it accomplish other than just pissing off teachers more?

7/26/2013 8:57:55 AM

It makes the school privatization lobby happy

7/26/2013 8:59:26 AM

I don't know where i stand on the vouchers issue, so when I ask the following question, I'm asking it with an open, uninformed mind.

But are vouchers necessarily a bad thing? I mean I would think that the left would applaud trying to help lower income families get into private schools. Or are you saying that it only gives middle income families a break, and that lower income families wouldn't be able to afford private schools even with the vouchers? I'm a product of the public school system, never went to a private school, and really don't know how much they cost.

7/26/2013 10:28:47 AM

I just don't understand how these policies encourage getting the "best teachers" into north Carolina....

-freeze their pay
-no longer incentivize them for increasing their skillset by obtaining an advanced degree or national boards certification
-take away due process for termination
-get rid of teaching fellows
-make them work every year for short term contracts based on how well the kids do (even if the parents are not involved)

what about all of that makes the "best teachers" say "I want to work there!"????

^the outcry from the left is using public money for private business. there's already a system in place for low-income families to send their children for instruction and it's called public school. private school isn't some magic pill solution to making a kid smarter or work harder. you would think the right would see that vouchers are a form of welfare and wouldn't support those.

[Edited on July 26, 2013 at 10:37 AM. Reason : ]

7/26/2013 10:33:23 AM

well private schools aren't a magic bullet, they have many of the same problems and issues and the public has even less input or oversight. this is particularly a problem for low income people who, even with a voucher, would only be able to afford low performing schools.

also, and more importantly in my opinion, is that it takes money that should be used to provide public education and funnels it to private companies. It takes money out of school so that middle class and wealthy families can subsidize their private education; it would leave a poorly funded public school system to catch the students who couldn't afford private schools.

7/26/2013 10:48:41 AM

This is old but

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/education/scholarship-funds-meant-for-needy-benefit-private-schools.html?pagewanted=6&_r=1&pagewanted=all

Quote :

"While the scholarship programs have helped many children whose parents would have to scrimp or work several jobs to send them to private schools, the money has also been used to attract star football players, expand the payrolls of the nonprofit scholarship groups and spread the theology of creationism, interviews and documents show."

7/26/2013 10:50:16 AM

when that chart show that teachers are being paid 15% less does that actually mean if you we making 30 you're now making 25500?

7/26/2013 6:36:06 PM

that chart is showing change in average teacher pay.

7/26/2013 6:59:59 PM