via vouchers

(from Raleigh Christian Academy's website, which I'm assuming some voucher students will attend)

Quote :

"Biology The ultimate goal of this class is for students to see the orderliness of God in creation while understanding His purpose for creating life. The biology course entitled, Biology: God’s Living Creation is a thirty-six week course. The curriculum includes a nine-week study of botany, an eighteen week study of human anatomy and physiology, as well as a nine-week study of zoology. Hands-on laboratory activities enhance the classroom lectures. Students get firsthand experience using the microscope, various dissecting materials and observing actual specimens. In the area of botany, students study both vascular and nonvascular plants. The human anatomy and physiology studies include a detailed look at each of the eleven body systems as well as a preview of heredity. The study of zoology gives an overview of the basic animal phyla, including mammals, fish, birds, reptiles, amphibians, arthropods, and invertebrates."

Quote :

"Earth Science This course is designed as a survey course touching all the major areas of earth science. It stresses concepts from earth science that are significant to all Christians. It emphasizes areas that are particularly important to Christian philosophy. The study of science and how it relates to the Bible is stressed throughout this course. The four main areas of study are astronomy, meteorology, geology, and the hydrosphere."

as a teacher at a public school, i'm obviously biased on this topic, but as a citizen it deeply concerns me that tax dollars are going to fund this indoctrination of students in the name of "science." Want to learn about god's plan? fine... do it on sundays.

8/10/2013 11:00:01 AM

The frustrating part of this is that both sides of the debate are completely aware of this and complete cool with this.

8/10/2013 11:41:39 AM

They are scholarships not vouchers but go ahead and post links to lib news articles about it. I think it is going to help smart students from low income households have better options especially if they are assigned to one of the many low performing public schools. The fact that you quoted class description of a private school is really reaching. It is the choice of the guardians about what the school indoctrinates not you and not me. I am glad the governor is taking the bull by the horns on education and getting to where our tax dollars reward performance.

8/10/2013 11:42:47 AM

Quote :

"They are scholarships not vouchers but go ahead and post links to lib news articles about it"

Please explain the difference between the two.

8/10/2013 11:44:13 AM

call them vouchers or scholarships it doesn't matter... they are both funneling public money into private schools that drain the resources of public schools that need the funding.

and the benefit of this is dubious at best. First, there are very few scholarships available period. The poorest of the poor are going to have a hard time getting to their private school when there is no school bus to take them. Are the private schools going to provide free lunch to the students who would normally get it from public schools?

curriculum-wise, what standards are private schools held to? Teaching about god's creation in science class doesn't speak very highly to the credibility of the academics of these places.

Is the education that much better at private schools? Sure private schools probably have higher graduation rates, etc... but is that because of better instruction or because of better home life typical of a private school attendee?

[Edited on August 10, 2013 at 11:53 AM. Reason : ]

8/10/2013 11:53:13 AM

Its definitely not universally true that private schools are better. For every great private school there are a handful of really bad ones.

8/10/2013 12:31:56 PM

The credibility isn't hurt at all.

I would assume the instruction would be better due to less distractions from students that might not come from an ideal home situation. I don't think instructors are any better in private schools. I have a lot of respect for public school teachers that have to work in schools where bad home lives spill over into the learning environment.

8/10/2013 12:39:34 PM

calling religion science doesn't hurt credibility? i am in no way trying to insult Christianity or any other religion, but to call those beliefs science is a disservice to students and society.

8/10/2013 12:42:37 PM

^ there's no way of knowing about private school performance because the proponents also don't want any oversight. If you want to give tax dollars to private businesses then their needs to be some kind of measuring stick so we know how those dollars are being used. I prefer just making them take a few of the same tests public schools have to take every year.

For the worst case scenario take a look at Louisiana's voucher system. There are reports of schools just putting kids in a room with "the Ten Commandments" on repeat.

8/10/2013 12:44:19 PM

creation can't be explained with science

8/10/2013 9:16:15 PM

therefore should be no part of a science curriculum. thanks for confirming my point.

8/10/2013 9:20:28 PM

Creation can be explained by science

but okay

8/10/2013 9:22:31 PM

no it can't, troll.

8/10/2013 9:27:38 PM

it really can't...or not at present.

nobody has the faintest (scientifically grounded) idea where the universe(s) came from.

8/10/2013 9:59:07 PM

It's crap like this which makes me want to run for public office. However, knowing the kind of idiots I'd have to face on a daily basis keeps the urge to run too unpalatable to pursue.

8/11/2013 9:25:37 PM

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-teacher-catholic-fired-20130808,0,2610005.story

Quote :

"Students rallied Thursday at St. Lucy’s Priory High School in Glendora to support a gay teacher who was fired after he married his partner."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/danielle-powell-grace-university_n_3428514.html

Quote :

"Danielle Powell was close to getting her bachelor's degree when she was kicked out of her university for being gay in 2012, and now says the only way the school will transfer her credits to another school is if she agrees to pay $6,300."

https://www.allout.org/en/actions/georgia

Quote :

"Georgia lawmakers want to add millions more to this program that supports schools who explicitly ban gay and lesbian students. "

http://blog.wataugawatch.net/2013/02/holy-crap.html

Quote :

"Dianna Lightfoot, the woman the McCrory administration wanted to put in charge of NC childhood education, resigned the position a hour ago."

Quote :

"Or a child may tell a therapist he is attracted to someone of the same sex. The counselor might tell the kid it's OK to feel that way. “We don't think a school counselor has any business giving that sort of approval to a child,” says Lightfoot."

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/04/26/student-protest-supports-fired-teacher.html

Quote :

"About a dozen Roman Catholic high-school students gathered outside the Downtown offices of the Diocese of Columbus this morning holding signs in support of a fired gay teacher. "

Private and religious schools don't have the greatest track record in not discriminating against gay students, students of gay parents, in counseling, in not teaching hateful things, and in not causing gay students to drop out, quit, or runaway.

Normally I wouldn't be too pleased about them getting more of my tax dollars. But I believe I saw them pass a bill this legislative session regarding teaching sex ed in public schools to imply that being gay means you'll end up diseased, so the lines between public and conservative religious education are blurring anyways.

8/11/2013 11:10:03 PM

What's the benefit of the vouchers?

Id imagine the proponents of this think it's worth a few religious and homophobic nutjobs getting rich off public money, if it means they can get reimbursed for sending their own kid to a private school.

8/12/2013 12:08:06 AM

Quote :

"Smath74 All American 87035 Posts user info edit post no it can't, troll. 8/10/2013 9:27:38 PM JeffreyBSG All American 8517 Posts user info edit post it really can't...or not at present. nobody has the faintest (scientifically grounded) idea where the universe(s) came from. "

just because we don't have all of the answers yet, it doesn't mean that science can't explain creation. and that's the point.

science is not a list of facts, its a process for discovering and studying things. because something hasn't been figured out yet doesn't mean that it can't be figured out. science is the framework that is used to study and explore things, creation included.

idiots

8/12/2013 7:31:24 AM

Jesus fuck stop calling the way the Universe came to be "creation." It's question begging, even if it's not intentional. There's no reason to believe our Universe was "created."

And yes, there are powerful religious organizations in our country working very hard to brainwash our children into being ignorant hateful assholes. Can't blame it on superstition though!

8/12/2013 8:48:40 AM

Usually dtownral and disco_stu annoy the piss out of me, but they're fucking right this time.

Everyone else ITT can just close their eyes, raise one hand, and sway to the tune of terrible contemporary Christian music.

8/12/2013 10:36:00 AM

Quote :

"he ultimate goal of this class is for students to see the orderliness of God in creation while understanding His purpose for creating life. "

are they also planning on explaining how God was created? I know, I'm trolling, but discussing "God's purpose" in a science class is completely reprehensible.

8/12/2013 10:57:30 AM

I cant wait to see the blank stare empty headed motherfuckers they get to teach this garbage (with a straight face).

8/12/2013 11:05:32 AM

Quote :

"Creation can be explained by science but okay"

I think i misunderstood your point... when you use the term "creation" are you implying that god created the universe or are you simply talking about the formation of the universe? Whenever i've heard the term "creation" used, it was implying that (a) god created it.

"creation" vs "formation"

[Edited on August 12, 2013 at 11:32 AM. Reason : ]

8/12/2013 11:16:38 AM

Using the word lets them slime intent into the formation (or whatever) or the Universe. I'm not talking about God, wink wink, I'm talking an "intelligence."

It's Wedge Strategy 101.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

8/12/2013 12:43:40 PM

agreed.

8/12/2013 1:11:02 PM

You guys just don't know enough science to understand this advanced curriculum. They are obviously referring to the Higg's boson as God.

8/12/2013 3:43:31 PM

ha! like science will EVER prove that particle exists.

8/12/2013 3:54:47 PM

That's the great thing about God: you don't have to prove it exists.

8/12/2013 4:33:02 PM

what does god need with a starship?

8/12/2013 4:47:24 PM

Quote :

"our tax dollars reward performance"

Teaching the opposite of science in a science class doesn't qualify as "good performance."

8/12/2013 5:18:35 PM

^ opposite of science...interesting

I understand what you are saying Smath but wonder if you feel that folks shouldn't be able to use Pell Grants for colleges that are religiously affiliated.

[Edited on August 12, 2013 at 6:11 PM. Reason : .]

8/12/2013 6:01:27 PM

Affiliation doesn't concern me. What they teach does. Do they teach creationism in place of science? Then fuck no.

8/12/2013 8:23:28 PM

Quote :

"call them vouchers or scholarships it doesn't matter... they are both funneling public money into private schools that drain the resources of public schools that need the funding."

in my opinion, anecdotes like the one in the op actually seem to favor vouchers over public schools. creationist parents can teach their kids nonsense science if they like, but if they go to a different school, they can't pollute the science education for everyone else, which is what seems to happen with public schools.

in my public high school biology class, my teacher gave a little speech before we started the section on evolution. he said in the past, students had walked out when evolution was taught, and that even though he sympathized with those students because he didn't believe in evolution either, he asked that no one walk out this year because he had no choice but to teach it and he just wanted to get through it without a fuss.

as you can expect, the students took the material real seriously after the teacher said he thought it was bs.

if I went to a school without those creationist displays, we would have never got that speech. Hell, maybe the school would have even hired a teacher that could be unapologetic about believing in science!

my parents could have chose a school like that with a voucher system, but with the current public school system my school was chosen for me based on my address.

[Edited on August 12, 2013 at 10:12 PM. Reason : ``]

8/12/2013 9:59:15 PM

it sounds like that teacher should have handled the situation better, and taught the science in the science classroom and left his personal religious feelings at home. (which is what most successful science teachers I know do, regardless of their beliefs.)

There is nothing wrong with addressing the fact that sometimes subject matter can be controversial, but a simple lesson of the nature of science is sufficient most of the time.

8/12/2013 11:12:25 PM

^ I can agree with that. There's no room for editorializing in the science classroom. Tell them it's controversial, but it's going to be taught and to be respectful of those who want to learn, and that's all that's needed.

8/13/2013 12:24:58 AM

Smath,

I agree. And that's an opinion I could share by moving to another school that better reflected the education I wanted to receive sticking it up my own ass since such views were a minority in the community.

God bless public schools.

[Edited on August 13, 2013 at 3:49 AM. Reason : ``]

8/13/2013 3:45:46 AM

^^^^

WTF?!?! He might as well said that the Earth is just 10,000 years old, men walked with dinosaurs, the Earth is flat and the center of the Universe!

Dammed idiot!!

8/13/2013 9:09:09 AM

My only argument for vouchers...and its a selfish one, is that if my daughter ends up going to a school where lots of kids from bad neighborhoods are bussed, I would like options to get her out and away from that school. Vouchers might give me that option. I know it wouldn't be the only option, but it would just be one other avenue to pursue.

How about a different proposal than vouchers...since the majority of property tax goes to fund local education, why not let parents who send their children to private schools be exempt from that tax? I mean they would be paying for a service they don't use.

8/13/2013 9:11:31 AM

Because you have a vested interest in everyone being educated. You are "using" that service even if your own crotchfruit don't go to a public school.

Quote :

"There is nothing wrong with addressing the fact that sometimes subject matter can be controversial"

The thing that cranks my gears is that evolution isn't even controversial among biologists. The "controversy" is completely fabricated. Just telling kids that it's controversial is damaging and flat out wrong. It's more wedge strategy.

8/13/2013 9:23:50 AM

^it IS controversial, like it or not... not among scientists, but within our society. just pretending it isn't there does a disservice to students... instead use it as a teachable moment to discuss the nature of science.

8/13/2013 9:50:46 AM

disco_stu does not enjoy discourse no matter the subject.

His way or the highway.

While I was agreeing with him earlier (and largely still do), if this thread continues much longer he will blow a gasket.

8/13/2013 9:54:34 AM

Quote :

"^it IS controversial, like it or not... not among scientists, but within our society."

I see your point, but it's supposedly a biology class, not a sociology class. but i guess it's worth addressing the "controversy", so as not to offend the creationists.

8/13/2013 10:02:25 AM

Whatever happened to the days where you nip this in the bud the first day of class either with a speech or your syllabi?

8/13/2013 10:04:41 AM

Instead of doing the smart thing, which would be to acknowledge there are different theories and teach some of both, those who devise the curriculum know that the minute a high school biology teacher spends any time on creation, the atheists and the ACLU would come out of the woodwork complaining. Because of that, you have teachers like the anecdote above where someone said "I don't beleive this is the way it is, but I have to teach it anyway" and then leave it at that.

Whether you believe in a religion or not, you can't deny its existence and the fact that billions on this planet follow one religion or the other. Such a dominance would logically make its way into teachings of science in some shape or form.

But hey, I thought this was a discussion about vouchers, not evolutionists vs creationists.

8/13/2013 10:06:28 AM

That's all well and good, but it has no basis in fact and shouldn't be taught in science classes.

People believe all kinds of stupid shit, but that doesn't mean that every stupid half cooked idea deserves to be put forward as a legitimate theory for why the universe is the way it is.

8/13/2013 10:12:44 AM

Quote :

"nstead of doing the smart thing, which would be to acknowledge there are different theories and teach some of both"

but this is a science class, and in the context of science, creationism is not a "theory". "Theories" are derived from multiple studies, using the scientific method, that result in a conclusion. Creationism has no roots in science, whatsoever. Calling it a "theory" in the context of science is a flat-out lie.



[Edited on August 13, 2013 at 10:16 AM. Reason : ]

8/13/2013 10:14:05 AM

b-b-b-but, discourse!!!

8/13/2013 10:16:58 AM

but the students will still go on to be more productive members of society than the majority of the turds rolling through NC public schools

8/13/2013 10:27:32 AM

This thread really needs to get back to vouchers.

The word "theory" has been invoked, and it can only get uglier from here.

[Edited on August 13, 2013 at 10:41 AM. Reason : -]

8/13/2013 10:39:23 AM

I find it interesting that several people believe this thread is solely about "vouchers" when a major part of the OP was this:

Quote :

"as a teacher at a public school, i'm obviously biased on this topic, but as a citizen it deeply concerns me that tax dollars are going to fund this indoctrination of students in the name of "science." Want to learn about god's plan? fine... do it on sundays. "

The "voucher" idea from conservatives is just a way for them to funnel kids away from the teaching of evolution (and Obama communism probably in their minds) using public money. They repeatedly get battered in court and they continually try to find ways around it.

[Edited on August 13, 2013 at 10:45 AM. Reason : .]

8/13/2013 10:41:47 AM