We should remove athletics from public schools, or at least make sure that no public money goes to athletics or any related items (facilities, insurance, travel, etc...). It's outrageous that we spend such large amounts of money to build athletic facilities and pay for insurance and travel. Any sports should be privately funded clubs and should use facilities that they pay for and they should be required to pay for their own insurance. Coaching ability should play no part in hiring decision for public educators, and there should be no additional salary for coaching (let private donors pay them if they want to).

In Wake County we just voted to approve a $810 MM school bond, and too much of that money for new school construction and renovation will go to athletic facilities. Hell, the WCPSS web page about the bond even prominently displays athletics.

Athletics are important and have some positive value, but that value does not outweigh the value of core curriculum or even the arts. We need to concentrate on improving core education, particularly STEM.

10/9/2013 10:38:11 AM

I think athletics play an important role in the education of some students and provides a great mechanism to keep many kids busy and out of trouble; it gives them something to work for and on which also translates the the classroom. Ensuring that students have easy and cheap/free access to athletics is most likely best done when attached to their schooling. So I'm going to have to disagree.

Imma hang up and lissen.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 10:46 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 10:44:28 AM

but can those goals not be accomplished with intramural activities and club sports? do those goals need expensive stadiums with lights and multiple fields to maintain, etc...

We pay more money per high school athlete than we do per math student, that's backwards.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/
The Case Against High-School Sports
The United States routinely spends more tax dollars per high-school athlete than per high-school math student—unlike most countries worldwide. And we wonder why we lag in international education rankings?

Quote :

"Every year, thousands of teenagers move to the United States from all over the world, for all kinds of reasons. They observe everything in their new country with fresh eyes, including basic features of American life that most of us never stop to consider. One element of our education system consistently surprises them: “Sports are a big deal here,” says Jenny, who moved to America from South Korea with her family in 2011. Shawnee High, her public school in southern New Jersey, fields teams in 18 sports over the course of the school year, including golf and bowling. Its campus has lush grass fields, six tennis courts, and an athletic Hall of Fame. “They have days when teams dress up in Hawaiian clothes or pajamas just because—‘We’re the soccer team!,’?” Jenny says. (To protect the privacy of Jenny and other students in this story, only their first names are used.) By contrast, in South Korea, whose 15-year-olds rank fourth in the world (behind Shanghai, Singapore, and Hong Kong) on a test of critical thinking in math, Jenny’s classmates played pickup soccer on a dirt field at lunchtime. They brought badminton rackets from home and pretended there was a net. If they made it into the newspaper, it was usually for their academic accomplishments."

Quote :

"In 1961, the sociologist James Coleman observed that a visitor entering an American high school would likely be confronted, first of all, with a trophy case. His examination of the trophies would reveal a curious fact: The gold and silver cups, with rare exception, symbolize victory in athletic contests, not scholastic ones … Altogether, the trophy case would suggest to the innocent visitor that he was entering an athletic club, not an educational institution."

Quote :

"To cut costs, the district had already laid off eight employees and closed the middle-school campus, moving its classes to the high-school building; the elementary school hadn’t employed an art or a music teacher in years; and the high school had sealed off the science labs, which were infested with mold. Yet the high school still turned out football, basketball, volleyball, track, tennis, cheerleading, and baseball teams each year. Football at Premont cost about $1,300 a player. Math, by contrast, cost just $618 a student. For the price of one football season, the district could have hired a full-time elementary-school music teacher for an entire year. But, despite the fact that Premont’s football team had won just one game the previous season and hadn’t been to the playoffs in roughly a decade, this option never occurred to anyone."

Quote :

"As it becomes easier and more urgent to compare what kids around the world know and can do, more schools may follow Premont’s lead. Basis public charter schools, located in Arizona, Texas, and Washington, D.C., are modeled on rigorous international standards. They do not offer tackle football; the founders deemed it too expensive and all-consuming. Still, Basis schools offer other, cheaper sports, including basketball and soccer. Anyone who wants to play can play; no one has to try out. Arizona’s mainstream league is costly to join, so Basis Tucson North belongs to an alternative league that costs less and requires no long-distance travel, meaning students rarely miss class for games. Athletes who want to play at an elite level do so on their own, through club teams—not through school. Basis teachers channel the enthusiasm usually found on football fields into academic conquests. On the day of Advanced Placement exams, students at Basis Tucson North file into the classroom to “Eye of the Tiger,” the Rocky III theme song. In 2012, 15-year-olds at two Arizona Basis schools took a new test designed to compare individual schools’ performance with that of schools from around the world. The average Basis student not only outperformed the typical American student by nearly three years in reading and science and by four years in math, but outscored the average student in Finland, Korea, and Poland as well. The Basis kid did better even than the average student from Shanghai, China, the region that ranks No. 1 in the world."

students can still have access to athletics without paying for public schools to look like athletic clubs

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 10:52 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 10:51:29 AM

I'm okay with this for college, not high school. Privately funded high school sports would mean poor kids don't get to play, and I think it's an important outlet for a lot of them.

I do agree that high cost stadiums/fields, uniforms, coaches, etc. are a huge waste of money for high schools.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 10:54:54 AM

No, not as well. And this is predicated on a massive upgrade/creation of multiple organizations to develop leagues and teams, many which are non-revenue sports (which in all likely hood, remain non-revenue). Ultimately, many high school sports wouldn't survive because organizations have to be able to raise enough money to operate - where is that money going to come from? You won't see a lot people decide to start sponsoring 20 sporting organizations. It will ultimately come down to the player's families to pay, which many cannot.

It sounds like your issue is with academic spending, not athletic spending. Which I agree with.

^somewhat agree, though I fear many schools wouldn't be able to provide many non-revenue sports. Not all schools are raking in millions on 2 sports.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 10:56:04 AM

^^so you're okay with poor student not getting to play sports in college?

^sports for children do not need to cost this much. you don't need expensive stadium lights and turfgrass to play soccer. money can be raised through fundraisers and donations, it shouldn't be raised by taking money away from academics



[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:01 AM. Reason : changed to soccer, children probably shouldn't be playing football regardless, its too dangerous]

10/9/2013 10:56:44 AM

I mean, I can't disagree with some of the athletics spending. But still, your issue is with classroom spending and school's priorities. No need to screw athletics/athletes over bad classroom decisions.

10/9/2013 11:01:46 AM

Quote :

"but can those goals not be accomplished with intramural activities and club sports? do those goals need expensive stadiums with lights and multiple fields to maintain, etc..."

Agree totally with this. Bring back gym class, or something that works in substitution. The returns on gym class aren't in college. They come many decades later as the habits and wellness of people in HS will affect medical bills in their later life.

Quote :

"^somewhat agree, though I fear many schools wouldn't be able to provide many non-revenue sports."

Oh please. "revenue" sports only make money after the taxpayer has already paid off construction of the (very expensive) stadiums. dtownral has a point there. We're seeing this exact misdirection going on with the construction bond issue.

10/9/2013 11:02:12 AM

Quote :

"^^so you're okay with poor student not getting to play sports in college?"

yes

10/9/2013 11:03:44 AM

but stadiums, etc. aren't built on education funds, are they? Typically bonds/tax increases/etc. that the people vote on.

I don't disagree with athletic departments/pro teams paying for their own shit.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:04 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 11:03:52 AM

but even if we flipped the balance, its still money that is being taken away from academics so a minority percentage of students can play sports. there is no way it doesn't screw academics and other students.

Quote :

"yes"

why, and why does that not apply in high school

Quote :

"but stadiums, etc. aren't built on education funds, are they? Typically bonds/tax increases/etc. that the people vote on."

that's not how it works. capital projects come out of money that could be used for education, and insurance etc... comes out of money that could go to education.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 11:03:57 AM

Quote :

"why, and why does that not apply in high school"

one is a developing child largely dependent on their parents, and one is a legal adult

10/9/2013 11:09:40 AM

that developing child has legal adult parents. and those legal adult parents are better able to afford athletics than a 17 or 18 year old student. and either way, both are capable of fundraisers and seeking donations.

fundraisers and donations for other extra-curricular activities work without burdening poor parents, athletics doesn't have to be any different.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 11:16:17 AM

Quote :

"but stadiums, etc. aren't built on education funds, are they? Typically bonds/tax increases/etc. that the people vote on."

When people voted on the school construction bond, the arguments they were basing this on were "classes are being held in trailers!"

The voters didn't authorize grandiose stadium construction.

EDIT: well maybe I was wrong

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/06/2250770/wake-laying-out-school-construction.html

Quote :

"Other needs listed include: • More than $30 million to create four regional transportation centers for bus maintenance. • Between $10 million and $30 million to build a regional athletic stadium or complex that could be used for band performances and sports such as basketball, baseball, football and track and field. • Some $2 million to upgrade 53 elementary schools that don’t have tracks or the track lacks a suitable surface. • Between $1 million and $7 million to upgrade Athens Drive High School’s football stadium. Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/08/06/2250770/wake-laying-out-school-construction.html#storylink=cpy"

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:19 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2013 11:17:59 AM

and even outside of this bond, I am pointing out that in general its a capital expense that could be used elsewhere, and its an operating budget that could be used elsewhere. Since schools are supposed to be about academics first, that's where it should go.


[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:24 AM. Reason : they are also paid for out of regular budgets]

10/9/2013 11:20:11 AM

Quote :

"that developing child has legal adult parents"

yeah but a lot of those legal adult parents suck big balls or are very poor and can't afford to pay for sports

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:21 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 11:20:50 AM

so the 17 or 18 year old student of poor parents is not too poor to pay for athletics themselves, how? basically I'm pointing out that your distinction between being okay with removing it from the college level but not high school is not based on burden to parents, because that argument doesn't work. I suspect that its because of something else, which is what I wanted to unveil and discuss.

but if you want to stick with that argument then see this:

Quote :

"fundraisers and donations for other extra-curricular activities work without burdening poor parents, athletics doesn't have to be any different. "

10/9/2013 11:23:19 AM

I think it's kind of crazy to say that HS students should only be able to play sports if their parents fund it. If there were a daily gym class, I would give a pass on that argument. There generally is not.

It's worth the resources to give every student the opportunity to play a sport- and we should totally do that. But that doesn't have to mean horseback riding. If we're talking about expensive sports, then leave those to the rich kids.

10/9/2013 11:30:07 AM

Quote :

"so the 17 or 18 year old student of poor parents is not too poor to pay for athletics themselves, how? basically I'm pointing out that your distinction between being okay with removing it from the college level but not high school is not based on burden to parents, because that argument doesn't work. I suspect that its because of something else, which is what I wanted to unveil and discuss."

college aged people don't require that outlet as much as teenagers. they are free from their home/neighborhood life, which can range from great to horrible.

Quote :

"fundraisers and donations for other extra-curricular activities work without burdening poor parents, athletics doesn't have to be any different."

you realize you're basically making the libertarian argument that government shouldn't be involved in charitable handouts because the private market can handle it. which i'm not sure is true

why only sports? why not remove funding for all other after-school activites?

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:37 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 11:36:55 AM

Wake county has looked at pay-to-play in the past, but that is not what I'm suggesting. General athletics and intramurals are part of being healthy, and in the link above they have those in South Korea too. What we should not be paying for are expensive travelling teams and stadium lights and stadiums and coaches and trainers and liability insurance and travel, etc... We don't need competitive sports at that level, club sports should fill that roll.

Quote :

"you realize you're basically making the libertarian argument that government shouldn't be involved in charitable handouts because the private market can handle it. which i'm not sure is true"

I'm saying that the government shouldn't be involved in competitive athletics in academic institutions

Quote :

"why not remove funding for all other after-school activites?"

which activities, do they have academic merit? Also, the reason I'm talking about sports is that most other activities are already not funded by public money

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:41 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 11:39:14 AM

How much does a basketball court or a soccer field cost? It's a pretty good long-term investment. There's no kid in the U.S. that doesn't have access to a court.

Most of the money goes into other things though. Events, competitions, travel, etc. Parents fund some of that, but in public schools a lot of it is paid for by the system in some way.

There's also a serious potential for long-term injuries in sports like football.

To me, it's inexcusable that so much money gets funneled into sports programs, even when other school programs (like marching band) are often entirely funded by boosters and still end up being highly successful.

10/9/2013 11:39:54 AM

in most places its more cost effective to become a coach than it is to seek additional education to get an advanced degree, the supplemental coaching salary usually dwarfs the raise for an advanced degree

10/9/2013 11:56:06 AM

I would bet between the NFL and NBA and NHL, they have enough excess cash to fund all public school sports. Why not let them take this over, they are the ones with the most vested interest in high school sports anyway.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 11:57 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2013 11:57:01 AM

Another problem with athletics in high school is how schools will hire just about anybody that's willing or able to fill a coaching vacancy. There a number of unqualified teachers at the high school my wife works at who fall into that category.

10/9/2013 11:58:22 AM

Quote :

"I would bet between the NFL and NBA and NHL, they have enough excess cash to fund all public school sports. Why not let them take this over, they are the ones with the most vested interest in high school sports anyway."

yep, our high schools and universities are our athletic development leagues. we should mirror other countries and have basic intramural and PE activities in schools and let clubs fill the void for high-level competitive sports.

10/9/2013 11:59:58 AM

it's already happening in American soccer.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 12:04 PM. Reason : less about costs and more about quality of soccer players though]

10/9/2013 12:03:50 PM

i'm glad they had sports in high school. taught me how to keep in shape and out of a lot of trouble. if they did away with school sports, do you think it would increase the childhood obesity problem?

10/9/2013 12:05:37 PM

I think the argument is that we should take all the money we're spending on a small number of competitive athletic programs and spread it out on fitness/wellness programs for all the students. Read the article where it mentions Spelman College.

10/9/2013 12:09:10 PM

sorry, I didn't read the article. i could get behind that.

edit: although after-school athletics were one of my fonder memories of middle/high school


[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason : ]

10/9/2013 12:14:03 PM

Haven't you guys seen Coach Carter? The one thing that is highly undervalued in high school sports is the connection between grades/school performance and being allowed to play. When I played high school sports I'd say about 1/4 of our team was getting bitched out by the coach to bring their grades up or to stop dicking around in some teachers class. Most of these guys weren't that motivated, and the desire to play + the coach constantly looking over their shoulder was absolutely a difference maker. Probably the difference between a solid B and a C or worse in any given class.

Yes, I realize that this is abused and there are plenty of examples of coaches/teachers/administrators turning their heads to keep important players eligible. This problem comes from a similar place (misplaced priorities) but would probably fit better in a different thread.

I also realize you could possibly make this work with club sports outside of school, but I think it would be a little more difficult than our current system. You'd need to organize the communication between school and team, more incentive for cheating, etc.

I'm not trying to justify building huge stadiums just to keep a handful of jocks in school and graduating on time, but high school sports do have value beyond just the play on the field. I generally agree with a lot of the things being said ITT, although it would be much easier for me to lean toward a "re-balancing" of what we spend on academics and athletics rather than removing them entirely. The effect would basically be the same, just a matter of degrees. Academics should absolutely be the #1 priority, and how we spend money on the system should reflect that.

10/9/2013 12:41:39 PM

Yeah, there's definitely value in it.

Quote :

"Most of these guys weren't that motivated, and the desire to play + the coach constantly looking over their shoulder was absolutely a difference maker. Probably the difference between a solid B and a C or worse in any given class."

How does this help a kid long-term though? Just doing enough to get by until they're done playing sports in high school and then what? It's a nice theory that the encouragement to keep grades up will result in actual learning but I highly doubt that's the case most of the time.

10/9/2013 12:50:33 PM

because its better to be a lazy dumbass with a high school diploma than just a lazy dumbass? And because success begets more success later? They are still just kids, and having a carrot dangling out in front of them at this point in their lives isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm not advocating for them to be overly coddled, they just need an extra push to realize the importance of what they're doing. They'll need to find self-motivation later on to be a successful adult, I can't argue against that.

10/9/2013 1:04:23 PM

basketball is the only way to motivate inner-city teens? how many people fit on a basketball team?

Coach Carter just demonstrates that when you have a very engaged instructor dealing with only a few students, they can affect good results. it could have been anything else, and since there aren't many students on a basketball team it seems like a pretty poor way to motivate students as a policy.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 1:10 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 1:06:39 PM

In some cases, yes, athletics is one of the few motivators for these kids to want to show up to school.

10/9/2013 1:13:21 PM

saying that poor inner-city kids can only be reached through basketball or athletics seems pretty white-savior naive to me

10/9/2013 1:16:18 PM

regardless, it seems to be true, at least sometimes

10/9/2013 1:17:29 PM

you can't make that determination until you try other things, and in places where other things are funded and tried they work too. it also ignores the quality of education that kids are getting to satisfy that education requirement so they can play. not only is it anecdotal, its not even complete.

10/9/2013 1:19:32 PM

I'm not saying that sports are the only extra-curricular that can provide extra motivation for kids, it just happens that this thread was about sports. I was only trying to stay on topic We should make room for other after school extra-curriculars that might motivate students not interested in sports too.

You just said these programs have value and can produce better overall educational results. Its just a question of are we overspending on them because we also value other aspects of athletics (that are totally unrelated to education)? I'd agree with that, but prefer we just rebalance our spending rather than removing athletics all together.

10/9/2013 1:40:19 PM

Let me clarify then: I don't think these programs have educational value

10/9/2013 1:49:18 PM

They teach kids discipline. They teach kids how to exercise. They teach kids how to work with a team. They teach kids how to deal with loss. They teach kids to be good sports. Maybe not "academic", but good life lessons.

10/9/2013 1:55:20 PM

^^then maybe you should read up on the literature:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=NNuDZJtRweUC&oi=fnd&pg=PA95&dq=high+school+athletes+improved+educational+outcomes&ots=eBYiEzh1al&sig=0phsCOn1HGMmDLzKMSBascLlGFs#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2668209

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3090254?seq=1

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/edu/84/4/553/

http://rer.sagepub.com/content/57/4/437.short

10/9/2013 2:12:05 PM

ITT, we learn that dtownral was a nerd in school and was bullied by athletes.

10/9/2013 2:17:48 PM

Quote :

"They teach kids discipline. They teach kids how to exercise. They teach kids how to work with a team. They teach kids how to deal with loss. They teach kids to be good sports. Maybe not "academic", but good life lessons."

People repeat these same things when it comes to band. Maybe without the "loss" part.

10/9/2013 3:13:56 PM

haha, comparing band to athletics. gold!, sorry I should say brass!.

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 3:16 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 3:16:34 PM

how are those things not true about much cheaper intramural sports? you don't need a press box, stadium lights, and an expensive facility to teach teamwork or discipline.

Quote :

"^^then maybe you should read up on the literature:"

your first link supports my position, i'll have to read the rest later


[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 3:19:54 PM

^
you don't need any of those things for inter-school sports either

intramurals are great if you have a large school and many students interested in sports

10/9/2013 3:21:57 PM

Quote :

"you don't need any of those things for inter-school sports either"

which is why we should stop using public money to pay for them

10/9/2013 3:23:07 PM

i agree, but what does that have to do with switching to intramurals?

[Edited on October 9, 2013 at 3:24 PM. Reason : .]

10/9/2013 3:24:10 PM

i'm using that as shorthand for cheap, simple athletics because it doesn't require travel and coaches, etc... If you can do inter-school athletics without having to pay for travel or using any public money, its not contrary to my position.

10/9/2013 3:30:25 PM

Well I guess it is pretty obvious dtownral didn't play high school sports.

Sports have a lot of value in life lessons for kids, especially ones that have worthless parents. Good coaches can dramatically change a kids life for the better, they teach discipline, competition, help show you what it is like to lose, etc. Anyone who doesn't find value in these things has clearly never played competitive sports and no, a PE class will not be a worthy substitute.

10/9/2013 3:46:42 PM