It's like our own little Arab/Israeli conflict right here on the wolfweb! Except nobody is getting blown up, shot, kidnapped, or starved to death.

1/29/2009 5:54:12 PM

^ you'd have to give bdmazur lots of money and some weapons, and secretly smuggle crude explosive to tmhatem for that to happen.

1/29/2009 9:03:51 PM

Well, Hate-em is Egyptian himself so technically he would be the one doing the smuggling.

1/29/2009 9:10:47 PM

Israel is blameless.

they're victims, dont you know? remember the Nazis?

that shit gave the Israelis a free pass for 100 years.

1/29/2009 11:20:54 PM

Remember when the British took the land from the Turks and then gave it to the Israelis with no regard for the Palestinians? Instead of punishing the British for their fuck ups we should bomb the Israelis out instead!

1/30/2009 1:44:00 AM

^3-6 I really think we have done a good job here. While we have different views of what happened and its the causes, I think we all agree to stop killing civilians from both sides, and to give Palestinians their rights back, and we did it with an accepted human losses. Moreover, I think we have reached to genuine ideas that would help solving a hundred years conflict if implemented.

Quote :

"Remember when the British took the land from the Turks and then gave it to the Israelis with no regard for the Palestinians"

^ bdmazur, British had two wars with China called Opium Wars, occupied many countries for more than 100 years, wanted to control the "new world", created apartheid system in South Africa, and even Newton's laws of motion is not absolutely correct. British planted landmines on a large part of the north west coast of Egypt, same in Sinai by Israel, do you think we should leave those mines fields because the British and Israelis did it!?

I think it is time for us, the people, to overcome our differences and to create a system where everyone can enjoy the prosperity from his hard work and to aim for better future.

[Edited on January 30, 2009 at 5:28 AM. Reason : ]

1/30/2009 5:09:36 AM

Quote :

"and even Newton's laws of motion is not absolutely correct."

What does this have to do with the price of Tea in China?

1/30/2009 8:59:46 AM

Quote :

"What does this have to do with the price of Tea in China?"

believe it or not, everything is "relative"!

1/30/2009 9:04:48 AM

I think the sand and heat of Egypt has warped your brain.

1/30/2009 9:08:15 AM

Quote :

"Arab league to mandate that all of trades and cooperation with Israel to happen through Palestinians territories and borders"

They could absolutely do this and it wouldnt surprise me one bit if they attempted to implement this idea. In theory, it would help a young Palestinian state grow economically which could mean good things for the region as a whole. However, the Arab League can't seem to implement anything meaningful among the countries that enjoy relative peace now. At their most recent meeting, their entire agenda was thrown by the wayside in lieu of bickering about the Israeli offensive in Gaza. Forgive me if I don't hold out a lot of hope that the Arab league will step up to the plate with anything meaningful to help the Palestinians.

Quote :

"Israel cannot discriminate between flow of individuals, goods, or natural resources coming from Palestine or other countries that is going through its land, and should be fined for this or for blocking such flow."

Yeah, that suggestion is bound to go over about as well as a fart in a space suit. No country on this planet would agree to such terms and no one should. You said it yourself, its their land, why shouldnt they be able to dictate what passes through its borders? Forgoing sovereignty for the sake of peace could only end badly.

The idea of having geographically divided states is not unheard of at all (see: Azerbaijan, Russia (Kaliningrad)). Particularly with Azerbaijan being divided by a rather unfriendly Armenia, they seem to make it work. It may not be easy and certainly not preferable, but it is possible to get by as a divided nation with a foe in between.

Quote :

"Let me give you an example from the last conflict,"

The problem with the example that you give is that you fail to take into account that the catalyst for the public outcry in Egypt that you cite would no longer be there once a Palestinian state is successfully created. This renders your solution irrelevant. At that point, Egyptian outcry should cease and normal fuel trade could resume without going through Palestine.

Quote :

"This will pressure Israel and Palestine to have a normal relation that is based upon respect and mutual interest, rather than a volatile relation that will end if you don't like the guy setting on the table."

Ask the Ukrainians and Russians how that whole oil/natural gas thing is working out. Sure, having mutual interests should foster the idea of at least putting up with one another, in practice it can quickly become the spark that initiates conflict.

1/30/2009 11:06:15 AM

^ I agree with you, but let me comment on parts of it;

Quote :

"having mutual interests should foster the idea of at least putting up with one another, in practice it can quickly become the spark that initiates conflict."

I totally agree, especially in case of Israel, as previous wars (1956 and 1967) were partially a result of similar situations. The same reason that makes Arab countries not willing to have a relation with Israel. That is why this should be established as a commercial relation and not as a political commitment for Israel, Palestine, and Arabs. Moreover, I urge that Israel, US, Europe and International community commit to handle any conflict on a legal, fair and diplomatic way, similar to what is happening between Russia and Ukraine.

Quote :

"the catalyst for the public outcry in Egypt that you cite would no longer be there once a Palestinian state is successfully created."

This public objection goes before the current conflict, and I guess it will go after several years of creating a Palestinian state. Egyptian government, and other nearby governments, will probably wait till a real profit come out of the Palestinians and Israelis commercial relation before establishing direct routes with Israel. I think this will take 20 years or more, which give time for the Palestinians to get the benefit, and to make these routes well-established.

Quote :

"No country on this planet would agree to such terms and no one should. You said it yourself, its their land, why shouldn’t they be able to dictate what passes through its borders? "

The other way around is to treat Israel on the same way, i.e. if Israel doesn’t allow Palestinians to go through Israel, Palestine could stop Israeli from using these routes to connect with other countries. This would slow down these routes, and make it less efficient, remember that the real advantage of these routes not only to connect Israel with Arab world, but to connect the region, North Africa, Turkey, and Europe.

[Edited on January 30, 2009 at 4:41 PM. Reason : ]

1/30/2009 4:37:40 PM

Quote :

"bdmazur, British had two wars with China called Opium Wars, occupied many countries for more than 100 years, wanted to control the "new world", created apartheid system in South Africa, and even Newton's laws of motion is not absolutely correct. British planted landmines on a large part of the north west coast of Egypt, same in Sinai by Israel, do you think we should leave those mines fields because the British and Israelis did it!?"

Wow... Brilliant post. Really. Would read again.

Israeli's suck. Palestinian's suck. Let them kill each other if they want to. If they want peace, then let them have peace, but it's something they both have to want and enforce themselves. We should stay out of it altogether. (no more money for Israel, Palestinians, Egypt, Jordan, etc.)

1/30/2009 4:47:54 PM

Quote :

"That is why this should be established as a commercial relation and not as a political commitment for Israel, Palestine, and Arabs."

You touch on a very crucial distinction that I havent seen you make in your previous comments regarding routing commerce to Israel through Palestine. If the Arab league forces its members to route their trade through Palestine, then by definition this is a political commitment. This will likely breed a substantial amount of resentment among the Israelis which defeats any positives that go along with sharing mutual interests. Routing trade through Palestine does automatically create mutual interests. Now if they were truly commercial interests in play, I believe your idea of mutual interests fostering peace could have a chance.

Quote :

"I urge that Israel, US, Europe and International community commit to handle any conflict on a legal, fair and diplomatic way, similar to what is happening between Russia and Ukraine"

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here, sure this way of handling things would be great. This is far from how things are going down in the Russia - Ukraine row. The only reason why Europe is playing nice is because Russia has them by the balls and the government in Ukraine is too in shambles to back.

Quote :

"This public objection goes before the current conflict"

this may be the case but the crux of your initial scenario was that the public outcry that has led to a halt in trade with Israel is directly linked to the violence perpetrated against the Palestinians. Presumably, this would cease if both Israel and the Palestinians come to an agreement to create a Palestinian state.

Quote :

"Egyptian government, and other nearby governments, will probably wait till a real profit come out of the Palestinians and Israelis commercial relation before establishing direct routes with Israel."

Your opinion on the altruism of governments obviously differs from mine. I would hope that you are correct in this regard. However, I cannot see why anyone interested in trading with Israel would opt to go through a third nation when a direct route is available. The obvious exception to this would be to indirectly aid the economy of Palestine to avoid having a failed state on their borders.

Quote :

"the real advantage of these routes not only to connect Israel with Arab world, but to connect the region, North Africa, Turkey, and Europe."

The problem with this 'advantage' lies in the fact that Israel is not a landlocked country. Each of the three regions that you mention can be easily accessed by water from Israeli ports. I just can't foresee the Israelis opting for higher overland trade routes in this situation.

1/30/2009 5:35:18 PM

Why do I go to protests? For the nuanced debate, of course.
"But we need more planes for Israel," said a passerby, reading my sign.
"F-16s kill kids," I replied.
"Yeah, fuck them. We need to blow the Muslims up."
What more can you say?

1/31/2009 4:35:20 PM

^What does that one idiot have to do with this discussion?

1/31/2009 11:30:47 PM

Remember when I kept saying Hamas hurts their own people? Here's some proof.

From CNN:

Quote :

" The U.N. agency that provides humanitarian aid to Middle East refugees has suspended relief to Gaza after two incidents this week in which the ruling Hamas government seized the supplies, the U.N. group said Friday. The U.N. Relief and Works Agency won't resume deliveries until the stolen supplies are returned, and the agency is "given credible assurances from the Hamas government in Gaza that there will be no repeat of these thefts," the agency said in a written statement."

In a different story, also from CNN:

Quote :

"Amnesty International has accused Hamas militants in Gaza of kidnapping, killing and torturing fellow Palestinians they accuse of spying for Israel, the organization announced Tuesday. Hamas supporters stand on the rubble of a building hit by an Israeli strike that killed Hamas' interior minister. According to Amnesty International, at least 24 Palestinian men -- most of them civilians -- were shot and killed by Hamas gunmen during the recent Israeli offensive aimed at crippling the Hamas leadership in Gaza."

2/11/2009 11:13:42 PM