Quote :

"and through discussion with other saints."

so you pray to saints? but I thought that was idolatry?

Quote :

"Did a talking snake convince the first woman to disobey god by eating a magic fruit or not? That's what I want to know. If you buy into evolution then you know there was no "first woman", no garden of eden, no ribs being plucked from a man, no talking snake, no magic fruit. So if it didn't happen as written, how did original sin happen at all? The NT clearly states that before Adam's transgression we were sinless, but after we were sinful, but if you don't think there actually was an Adam eating fruit then what do you believe?"

There was a fall of man at some point early in mankind but its much more complicated to explain which is why we have the story to explain it in an understandable way. The adam eve story holds the same value of what really happened but even to this day, its too complicated for us to understand.

Quote :

"I don't think "sin" exists as some objective thing, so no I don't think humans are inclined to sin. Also, "naturally mischievous?" What in the fuck does that even mean?"

Sin means doing something wrong and due to orginial sin, people are naturally inclined to do selfish, hateful things. Even good peope, have horrible thoughts come into thier mind. Haven't you ever just wanted to kill somebody or commit a horrible crime but decided not? That is the ever going battle between sin and the holy spirit in your brain.

7/27/2011 9:13:21 AM

Quote :

"There was a fall of man at some point early in mankind but its much more complicated to explain which is why we have the story to explain it in an understandable way. The adam eve story holds the same value of what really happened but even to this day, its too complicated for us to understand. "

So you believe that the Adam story is just a proxy for something more mysterious and that every Christian in the New Testament is wrong to think that there really was a "one man" that sinned and caused sin to enter humanity? This reads to me as "I want to believe it despite it not making a lick of sense."

Quote :

"Sin means doing something wrong and due to orginial sin, people are naturally inclined to do selfish, hateful things. Even good peope, have horrible thoughts come into thier mind. Haven't you ever just wanted to kill somebody or commit a horrible crime but decided not? That is the ever going battle between sin and the holy spirit in your brain."

Still haven't explained what you mean by "original sin". We know it wasn't a talking snake. How can you claim that something ("people are naturally inclined...") is caused by something you cannot explain?

You don't actually believe evolution. If you did, you'd understand that people are inclined to do things because a combination of our evolutionary roots and cultural standards. We're selfish because being selfish kept our species going. All animals have selfish tendencies when it comes to eating and procreating. Was there an original sin for hyenas too?

Quote :

" Haven't you ever just wanted to kill somebody or commit a horrible crime but decided not? That is the ever going battle between sin and the holy spirit in your brain."

I'm not sure why you'd assume there is an undetectable holy spirit in my brain making moral decisions for me. I decide what actions I do and do not take (nominally, no one really makes decisions but that's neither here nor there) and how I will react to desires.

Every single action you take is a judgement based on your desires and the perceived consequences of the action. From getting out of bed in the morning to killing your neighbor the only battle going on is you deciding if you want to do it enough to outweigh the perceived consequences of doing it.

7/27/2011 9:31:58 AM

Quote :

"so you pray to saints? but I thought that was idolatry? "

He doesn’t mean “saint” in the Catholic sense, that was made clear like on page 1...

7/27/2011 9:47:41 AM

Quote :

"So you believe that the Adam story is just a proxy for something more mysterious and that every Christian in the New Testament is wrong to think that there really was a "one man" that sinned and caused sin to enter humanity? This reads to me as "I want to believe it despite it not making a lick of sense.""

Well it had to be one man do it first so thats logical. We just don't understand the soul yet to be able to make a more realistic story. We understand a lot more about creation and can go ahead and put together a more accurate story for that though.

Quote :

"Still haven't explained what you mean by "original sin". We know it wasn't a talking snake. How can you claim that something ("people are naturally inclined...") is caused by something you cannot explain?"

Well we know God does not create evil and God created our souls in his image. Even with free will, there has to be a reason that we often choose bad over good and this is passed down to every human. At some point someone let evil into their soul and this evil has spread. Before we understand the soul, we won't be able to explain how it happened.

Its almost like a hypothetical alice and bob science thought study. There had to be an "adam and eve" as the first tarnished souls.

Quote :

"You don't actually believe evolution. If you did, you'd understand that people are inclined to do things because a combination of our evolutionary roots and cultural standards. We're selfish because being selfish kept our species going. All animals have selfish tendencies when it comes to eating and procreating. Was there an original sin for hyenas too?"

Some of the things we do have nothing to do with self preservation, they are just evil. Animals don't have souls. God created the soul unique for humans. I doubt homo erectus even had a soul. We know souls are an actual thing we just don't have the science to understand them yet.

Quote :

"I'm not sure why you'd assume there is an undetectable holy spirit in my brain making moral decisions for me."

They are not making decisions from you but you are being guided with insight from both a light and a darkness inside of your soul. The light is the holy spirit and the darkness is a result of original sin.

7/27/2011 11:59:03 AM

I don't read the English version of the Bible literally. Actually, it is pretty much impossible to do that. I refer to a biblical dictionary type thing (concordance) with the Hebrew to English translations (and the other original biblical languages like Greek) of the original individual words and go from there. This gives the actual definition of the word that was used by the original writer including both the literal and figurative definition. For example in the book of Mark ch 16, Jesus tells the disciples to go out and handle snakes. If you look up the definition for the actual word that was used for snake in that passage, there is a figurative and literal definition of that word. The literal definition is obvious, the figurative definition is a type of sly cunning an artful malicious person--like Satan. It is just a literary aspect to his writing, but it can still be taken literally by understanding that figure of speech. However, there are still people that think they were called to go out and handle snakes because of this English translation--even poisonous ones! If you look up the word for snake that was used in Geneses, there is no figurative definition of that word. Therefore, yes I believe that an all powerful god created a really awesome place called the Garden of Eden where everything was provided for mankind, and animals could talk. For areas that seem unclear, I use this approach. However, since God gave freewill, he did not stop the snake from convincing Eve to sin (even though she did not know sin, she still was able to be persuaded. The devil who had already chose not to follow God, had taken the form of a snake and thus was able to convince her), nor did he step in to Eve’s decision making process, even though he knew it would mess everything up. Since she did sin, that trait has been passed down to all mankind. So yes, we are all screwed from her action, but we are also all screwed from our own actions—naturally no one is perfect. If it weren’t for Jesus, we would all be tortured. The only one that could stop us from all being tortured, volunteered to take our place. So yes, it is a just system. Everyone is guilty of sin. There are consequences to sin. No one made Jesus come to Earth and be tortured, he volunteered to do it because he could handle it (we humans could not) and he cared about mankind. Therefore, the penalty of sin was still carried out, and since humans cannot help but sin, God made sure we could be justified by making a plan where we wouldn’t have to be penalized for it. Also, you cannot compare humans to animals. Yes, we were all made by the same creator who used the same materials but for different creatures. That does not mean we can compare our standards to that of animals. And no, you do not have the Holy Spirit (who can help you discern God’s standards) making moral decisions in your brain unless you decided to accept it by accepting God’s plan to get us out of trouble. There is nothing in the Bible about “lightness and darkness” in your soul beforehand. Your soul is completely “darkness” until you have the holy spirit by accepting God’s plan for salvation. Everyone makes their own moral decisions before they have the Holy Spirit; however, your own moral decisions probably differ from God’s standards so you still need a savior.

7/27/2011 12:55:14 PM

My moral standards are actually much, much better than the God of Christianity. The God that's described in the bible should not be worshiped - he should be cursed and hated by humanity. He created humans with abundant flaws, created the earth with scarce resources, and he created Hell that everyone, by default, would go to. If God exists, he's pure evil.

7/27/2011 1:25:11 PM

^ nope. Originally everything was opposite of what you say. Mankind did this.

7/27/2011 1:29:34 PM

^^Not my God. That is Leonispro's evangelical interpretation of God. This God was written about to align with the times and morality standards of a barbaric era. Evangelicals don't translate this into todays moral standards because they take everything literal.

My God is all loving.

7/27/2011 1:39:13 PM

Quote :

"Well it had to be one man do it first so thats logical. We just don't understand the soul yet to be able to make a more realistic story. We understand a lot more about creation and can go ahead and put together a more accurate story for that though."

There's no evidence that a soul actually exists. You're still explaining nonsense with more nonsense.

Quote :

"Well we know God does not create evil and God created our souls in his image."

God commanded his army to slaughter women and children. God creates and maintains the rules by which people are damned to hell. Your God definitely creates evil.

Quote :

"Even with free will, there has to be a reason that we often choose bad over good and this is passed down to every human."

Bad and good are relative terms. We often make choices that benefit ourselves because such choices allowed our ancestors to procreate more successfully. This isn't difficult, and if you actually believe evolution you wouldn't need to wonder why any animal has selfish tendencies.

Quote :

"Some of the things we do have nothing to do with self preservation, they are just evil. Animals don't have souls. God created the soul unique for humans. I doubt homo erectus even had a soul. We know souls are an actual thing we just don't have the science to understand them yet. "

This is gibberish. How do you know a soul is an actual thing? Can you demonstrate the existence of a soul? This is an extremely important question. How do you differentiate between things that do and do not exist?

Quote :

"I don't read the English version of the Bible literally. Actually, it is pretty much impossible to do that."

You know what's impossible to read? Your wall of text.

Quote :

"^^Not my God. That is Leonispro's evangelical interpretation of God. This God was written about to align with the times and morality standards of a barbaric era. Evangelicals don't translate this into todays moral standards because they take everything literal. My God is all loving."

The very concepts of Hell and vicarious redemption are about the most evil things I can think of.

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 1:49 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2011 1:46:10 PM

Quote :

"he volunteered to do it because he could handle it (we humans could not)"

other than thousands of humans who were also crucified

Quote :

"I never claimed that everyone else was against scripture, and it's not my interpretation, it's the Ten Commandments"

Sure. Please point to where the ten commandments say you cannot honor someone. Oh wait, there is actually a commandment specifically telling you to honor someone other than God. Woops!

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 1:56 PM. Reason : G-d]

7/27/2011 1:55:36 PM

Quote :

"^ nope. Originally everything was opposite of what you say. Mankind did this."

Who created mankind?

7/27/2011 1:55:37 PM

E Man: Mine is too.
So you’re saying that since we are no longer barbaric, God’s stance on sin has changed—so it is now ok to be sinful as long as we are not barbaric? So in that case, why would you use the Bible at all? That is a major contradiction. It isn’t like the Bible is a complex rule-book with all these things that you must do differently as society changes. It addresses a fundamental problem pertaining to humanity. Sin has and will always be a problem with humans. There is a simple remedy for it. It doesn’t change.

Stu: I’m sorry.

EuroTitToss: Yes, thousands of people were crucified. Only one person (Jesus) was crucified, forsaken, and punished by God at the same time.

Destroyer: God created mankind with freewill. Eve had all the reasoning ability and knowledge to do the right thing, but she didn’t. It is her flaw, not God’s.

7/27/2011 2:10:50 PM

Quote :

"God created mankind with freewill. Eve had all the reasoning ability and knowledge to do the right thing, but she didn’t. It is her flaw, not God’s."

Who created Hell? Who decided to sacrifice one person for everyone else? How are these things not evil? The system is evil and God created the system. God is evil.

Telling children that they are evil and need to be cleansed with blood is really fucking wrong.

7/27/2011 2:13:58 PM

Mankind created hell when Eve decided to sin. Sin cannot be in the same presence as God. Hell=absence of God.

Who decided to make a plan so that everyone can stay in the presence of God? God. God is good.

Children are humans. They are sinners too. They are not told they need to go find some blood and be cleansed in it. That is false. This is referring to how Jesus decided to take care of everyone’s sins on the cross. Christian children are told that they are sinners like everyone else, and that God has made a way to fix the problem of sin.

However, from the Bible we know that if a child dies before they have the ability to understand the concept of salvation, they are immediately placed in Heaven because Jesus died for their sins too. They are not developed enough to have freewill to accept or reject God’s gift of salvation.

7/27/2011 2:35:31 PM

Quote :

"Sure. Please point to where the ten commandments say you cannot honor someone. Oh wait, there is actually a commandment specifically telling you to honor someone other than God. Woops!/quote] When you honor your mother and father do you say "Hail mother and father, full of grace?" Do you pray to your mother and father to intercede on your behalf? You can dance around it all you want by calling it different things, but the worship (veneration/honoring/highfiving) of Mary is still going against the second Commandment and no amount of made up moral grey area is ever going to be able to justify it. [quote]Not my God. That is Leonispro's evangelical interpretation of God. This God was written about to align with the times and morality standards of a barbaric era. Evangelicals don't translate this into todays moral standards because they take everything literal."

So your claim is that the God of the OT was unwilling to align to the times of a Barbaric era? And what exactly made that era so Barbaric, was it the violence and the slaughter?


"35And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his neighbor in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray you. And the man refused to smite him. 36Then said he to him, Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as you are departed from me, a lion shall slay you. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him."

1 King 20. Does this fit your moral view E Man?

"50And the LORD spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 51Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, When you are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52Then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: 53And you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. 54And you shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more you shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer you shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falls; according to the tribes of your fathers you shall inherit. 55But if you will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which you let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein you dwell. 56Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do to you, as I thought to do to them."

Numb 33

How about this? Just a couple examples, and if the second example is "figurative language" then the Ten Commandments are figurative language as well, in less you know of some manner to decipher what is figurative and what is not?

You can't just go around conforming God to your world view, saying, God is all loving, this must mean that he loves everyone and does things that I perceive as nice. If something that occurs in the world appears to be bad, there is no way God could be doing that because God does only things that appear good in my world view, this way when I speak about him with others they will say, OH WELL I GUESS HE ISN'T SO BAD.

The fact of the matter is that though God often does things that we deem as bad by our standards, they are just and good by God's.

7/27/2011 2:47:14 PM

Quote :

"Mankind created hell when Eve decided to sin. Sin cannot be in the same presence as God. Hell=absence of God. "

So essentially what you're saying is that God created a Rube-Goldberg machine wherein if Eve ate the apple then Hell would be created. How is he still not evil?

Quote :

"Who decided to make a plan so that everyone can stay in the presence of God? God. God is good. "

God's plan to make it so that everyone could stay in his presence was to set up a system wherein souls are damned to Hell? How is this not evil?

Quote :

"Children are humans. They are sinners too. They are not told they need to go find some blood and be cleansed in it. That is false. This is referring to how Jesus decided to take care of everyone’s sins on the cross. Christian children are told that they are sinners like everyone else, and that God has made a way to fix the problem of sin. "

I wasn't suggesting that when people tell their children to be cleansed in blood that I think that they're speaking literally. It's still sick.

Telling children that they're sinners is wrong.

Quote :

"However, from the Bible we know that if a child dies before they have the ability to understand the concept of salvation, they are immediately placed in Heaven because Jesus died for their sins too. They are not developed enough to have freewill to accept or reject God’s gift of salvation."

That people like this have children makes me sad. No child can possibly understand the gravity of religious belief, especially when it's coming from their parents and community elders. I think childhood indoctrination is wrong. There is no such thing as a Christian child.

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 2:56 PM. Reason : subject-verb agreement.]

7/27/2011 2:50:57 PM

Quote :

"The fact of the matter is that though God often does things that we deem as bad by our standards, they are just and good by God's. "

This is the rationalization you have to take when your God likes to slaughter innocent people and torture hundreds of billions of people for all eternity. If anyone else in the entire Universe committed the acts claimed by your god you'd call them the most atrocious being in the history of existence. Why not your god?

7/27/2011 2:56:16 PM

Quote :

"I think childhood indoctrination is wrong. There is no such thing as a Christian child."

What are you talking about Stu, the point was that according to scripture, children who can not adequately make a conscious choice one way or the other are not condemned.

I hope you realize that when you speak all I hear is moral relativism. Just because some people think that telling children about Christ is indoctrination does not mean that's what is always happening. Indoctrination occurs, when they are forced to believe a certain thing without any decision on their own part or any evidence presented. And if that is the case then where is their faith, this is often why "indoctrination" as you define it backfires, because those who were forced to believe something later refuse it, as they were given neither evidence or time to make their own decision.

Quote :

"God's plan to make it so that everyone could stay in his presence was to set up a system wherein souls are damned to Hell? How is this not evil?"

It isn't evil it is just. Did Hitler reap the due recompense for his works, did Stalin? Did all those who work evil in secret, killing multitudes?

"2Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproves God, let him answer it.

3Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer you? I will lay my hand on my mouth.

5Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yes, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6Then answered the LORD to Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7Gird up your loins now like a man: I will demand of you, and declare you to me.

8Will you also cancel my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

9Have you an arm like God? or can you thunder with a voice like him?

10Deck yourself now with majesty and excellency; and array yourself with glory and beauty.

11Cast abroad the rage of your wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14Then will I also confess to you that your own right hand can save you."

Job 40

Just because it offends your sense of morality that hell is in existence does not mean it's existence is an abomination.

7/27/2011 3:06:01 PM

Quote :

"This is the rationalization you have to take when your God likes to slaughter innocent people and torture hundreds of billions of people for all eternity. If anyone else in the entire Universe committed the acts claimed by your god you'd call them the most atrocious being in the history of existence. Why not your god?"

God judged them as being worth of death, they had set their face against him and he deemed them an abomination, they had gone against the law and transgressed the commandment of God. According to prophecy God will bring a full end to the Earth, and everyone upon it will die. Does this make God evil? Because he exercises his will over his creation, giving his creation plenty of time to repent.

7/27/2011 3:09:09 PM

^^^How is it a machine? By definition, God cannot be in the presence of sin. He made creation for his own happiness. The fruit (whether it was an apple or not, no one knows) was not meant for humans. It was meant for God. Eve knew this. Therefore, since Eve decided to eat it, she sinned. God had to leave, and force man out of Eden. However, knowing that mankind would be dammed without God, he made a plan to fix it. How is that evil?

Originally, no one was dammed to hell. Hell is the result of sin. How is it wrong telling a child that no one is perfect and everyone sins? It is right. You've not lived up to perfection. No one has. How can you say God likes to slaughter innocent people and torture people for eternity, when Jesus died for sin so no one would have to?

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 3:16 PM. Reason : left out a word.]

7/27/2011 3:12:43 PM

Tell me, if God has a different set of moral values than us how is that not itself moral relativism?

Only a moral system that applies to all conscious beings, gods or not could possibly be absolute.

Quote :

"Indoctrination occurs, when they are forced to believe a certain thing without any decision on their own part or any evidence presented. "

And that's not what Christian parents do to their children when they provide them with no evidence but authority and fear? The Bible isn't evidence. We've been through this.

Quote :

"It isn't evil it is just. Did Hitler reap the due recompense for his works, did Stalin? Did all those who work evil in secret, killing multitudes? "

Do I deserve the same punishment that Hilter does? If I die right now, denouncing God, but otherwise leading a peaceful and altruistic life, do I deserve the same punishment that Hitler does? Does anyone who's only sin is using their brain deserve this punishment? That's not justice. Everyone knows that it's not justice, which is why people invent moral concessions like "Hell isn't really Hell, it's just detachment from God." or "purgatory."

Quote :

"Just because it offends your sense of morality that hell is in existence does not mean it's existence is an abomination."

It's an abomination by everyone's sense of morality except for those that concede it only for their god. If I were to take 150 Billion people and burn them for all eternity for any reason whatsoever, you'd call me the worst psychopath in the history of existence.

7/27/2011 3:16:35 PM

Quote :

"How can you say God likes to slaughter innocent people and torture people for eternity, when Jesus died for sin so no one would have to?"

Because it is written in the Bible that God slaughters and orders the slaughter of innocent people. I'm not the one defining the Christian god.

I didn't ask for Jesus to die for me. It's blood sacrifice and it's barbaric.

Let's say I do something wrong. Is it moral for the authorities to execute you to pay for my wrongdoing, even if you volunteer for it? It isn't. Vicarious redemption is evil.

7/27/2011 3:20:31 PM

Quote :

"Do I deserve the same punishment that Hilter does?"

You aren't going to reap the same punishment as Hitler, hell is the detachment from God, but other than that we know very little about it. But consider this, if you are currently under the protection of God on Earth, when you die not accepting him, why should he continue to protect you?

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 3:22 PM. Reason : ]

7/27/2011 3:22:05 PM

Quote :

"You aren't going to reap the same punishment as Hitler, hell is the detachment from God, but other than that we know very little about it. But consider this, if you are currently under the protection of God on Earth, when you die not accepting him, why should he continue to protect you?"

So I'm only going to be partially detached from God instead of all the way detached? The first two clauses of your response are mutually exclusive. Detachment is binary. You either are or are not attached.

There is no evidence to suggest that I am "under the protection of God on Earth." In fact, there is every indication that there is no such being protecting us, given the immense, unfathomable amount of aggregate unnecessary suffering by conscious creatures in the history of this world.

7/27/2011 3:25:29 PM

Quote :

"So I'm only going to be partially detached from God instead of all the way detached? The first two clauses of your response are mutually exclusive. Detachment is binary. You either are or are not attached."

My meaning was in Hell, all are detached from God, punishment is based on the idea that all your works will be brought into judgement.

7/27/2011 3:27:05 PM

Quote :

"The bible is not evidence"

I apologize in advance for the long text, but refer to page 9.

God will still ultimately judge everyone according to their sins. I do believe that from a human perspective you are probably a good person, and there are many good things about other religions. However, sin is sin. Whether you are Hitler and kill millions of people, or you tell a small lie you have sinned. By definition, you can not be with God because of sin.

7/27/2011 3:29:18 PM

Quote :

"My meaning was in Hell, all are detached from God, punishment is based on the idea that all your works will be brought into judgement. "

So, "detached" and then punished according to our works? Is being "attached" "good"? So applying "not-good" to me for all eternity for the simple crime of using the brain that he gave me is moral?

Quote :

"God will still ultimately judge everyone according to their sins. I do believe that from a human perspective you are probably a good person, and there are many good things about other religions. However, sin is sin. Whether you are Hitler and kill millions of people, or you tell a small lie you have sinned. By definition, you can not be with God because of sin."

And that is not just. Justice = punishment fitting the crime. God has created a world wherein his existence defies logic and requires blind faith. Not believing in him is the only reasonable conclusion. To punish people at all for this is immoral. Let alone punish them for eternity.

Not only that, but he went ahead and created competing religions, each with just as much coercive power as Christianity, and if you happened to be born in that country then you're going to be punished for that as well. Not justice. Would you find it just if you end up in Hades because you didn't worship Zeus?

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 3:42 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2011 3:39:10 PM

God created and maintains all matter in the universe, doesn't he? If so, separation from god means literally not existing as a person ("soul"). In that case, "Hell" actually means "death."

That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. You're scared to think about a universe that doesn't include you, hence the need for religion. The idea that you can continue existing after your physical body is dead is very comforting. This is not anything new. Primitive men came up with the concept of afterlife long before Christ was even conceived of. Humans have a very powerful survival instinct.

I mean, I get it. I'm not going to reverse a lifetime of indoctrination on a college message board. It took me years of introspection to realize that I had been fed copious amounts of bullshit growing up. Don't admit it to me, but at least admit it to yourself: you're scared, self-centered little children that hate the idea of the universe going on without you. No amount of scripture can save you from that reality. Internalize it, hate it, fight against it, but eventually, accept it, and live your life.

7/27/2011 3:42:04 PM

Everyone can be justified by faith through Jesus (which is not blind refer to page 9).

7/27/2011 3:42:24 PM

It is also comforting for you to know that you do not have to live up to any standard by rejecting it.

7/27/2011 3:43:46 PM

Quote :

"God created and maintains all matter in the universe, doesn't he? If so, separation from god means literally not existing as a person ("soul"). "

It's not quite that simple, unless you could possibly explain to me the physical manifestation of Heaven, which is what you are implying. And the fact that in the Bible there is an account of someone calling out from Hell.

7/27/2011 3:44:41 PM

Quote :

"It is also comforting for you to know that you do not have to live up to any standard by rejecting it."

Secular moral standards are superior to dogma. Your standard is a joke. If we kept to the Biblical standard we'd still have slaves and women would be second class citizens (moreso than they currently are thanks to thousands of years of dogma).

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 3:46 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2011 3:46:07 PM

Quote :

"It is also comforting for you to know that you do not have to live up to any standard by rejecting it."

Is it comforting for you that you don't have live up to Islam's moral standards? No? Didn't think so. That's because you can easily recognize that those standards are artificial and erroneous. The same is true of your beliefs.

My moral standards are far superior to those espoused by the bible.

7/27/2011 3:52:08 PM

The standard of salvation? I have doubted it and reasoned though it myself.

Also, how are you backing this up through the Bible? (It seems you have been mislead)

Quote :

"If we kept to the Biblical standard we'd still have slaves and women would be second class citizens."

7/27/2011 3:52:38 PM

And yes, it is comforting to know that I do not have to live up to Islam's moral standards. I don't have to save myself. That is an absolutely ludicrous idea. If you passed someone in a burning building that needed help would you tell them to save their self?

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 3:58 PM. Reason : ]

7/27/2011 3:55:25 PM

The OT and the NT are flush with references on how slaves and slave-owners should act. No where in the entire book does God, or Jesus or anyone condemn slavery. Why not?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/slavery.html

And 1 Corinthians and Ephesians have lovely passages such as these:

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"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Which are commonly cited in modern times as an excuse for men to subjugate their wives.

And since you missed it before:

Would you find it just if you end up in Hades because you didn't worship Zeus?

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2011 3:59:15 PM

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"The OT and the NT are flush with references on how slaves and slave-owners should act. No where in the entire book does God, or Jesus or anyone condemn slavery. Why not?"

The NT speaks as a commentary of people at that time, meaning slavery was a state institution, Christians were not supposed to rebel against the state institution, if you actually read the references nowhere does it say, take slaves and be nice to them it is merely speaking on how to act in the slave situation. Not to mention you are construing slavery at that time with contemporary slavery, Christians were called to honor all people.

I already discussed the subjugation thing. I see you did take the passage out of context this time.

7/27/2011 4:04:59 PM

So if the state tells you to, I don't know, assist in genocide, you have to? Isn't God supposed to be superior to any kind of government? It makes no sense that you would commit a sinful act just because the government told you to.

7/27/2011 4:13:10 PM

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"It makes no sense that you would commit a sinful act just because the government told you to."

Most of the scripture applies to servants, the one example they use within the NT is that servant masters should be righteous and not mistreat their servants.

7/27/2011 4:16:15 PM

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"I already discussed the subjugation thing. I see you did take the passage out of context this time."

Just because the next line is "love your wife" doesn't make Christ : Man, Man : Woman any less misogynistic.

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"Most of the scripture applies to servants, the one example they use within the NT is that servant masters should be righteous and not mistreat their servants."

And you don't see how existing slave-holders could use this as justification for owning slaves? See, slaves, it says you shouldn't talk back to me.

Is slavery wrong?

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 4:42 PM. Reason : .]

7/27/2011 4:33:32 PM

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"5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; "

This is more than just some superficial definition of love, we are supposed to love our wives as God loved us.

7/27/2011 4:38:08 PM

And yet still be submitted to by our wives. I'm not sure how you can't see this.

Man -> Love your wife (ok, love her A LOT)
Woman -> Submit to your husband

Notice also that the submission is likened to man's submission to God. So this isn't some superficial definition of submission, they are supposed to submit to us as they submit to the Lord.

7/27/2011 4:41:37 PM

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"Love your wife (ok, love her A LOT)"

Well it's more than just that it also entails forgiveness. Well we can consider our relation to Christ, to see this relationship. Though we are to submit to Christ we still have free will, and if a husband says something that is not inline with scripture a woman should not need to submit to it. Thus a woman's duty is always to her God, the husband cannot change that.

7/27/2011 5:13:31 PM

That doesn't even begin to address the misogyny. All that's saying is men need to submit to God and women need to submit to God and men.

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"if a husband says something that is not inline with scripture a woman should not need to submit to it. Thus a woman's duty is always to her God, the husband cannot change that."

What if a husband commands her to something which is not against scripture? Need she submit to it?

7/27/2011 6:17:25 PM

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"There's no evidence that a soul actually exists. You're still explaining nonsense with more nonsense."

There was actually a great new episode of through the wormhole where they dabbled in scientific research that is being used to explain the soul. They went over a lot of different evidence for a human soul. We know its here too. Believing in a religion doesn't really help our survival odds. If anything, it decreases them but humanity ALWAYS has religion. ALWAYS. because we have soul and we are concerned about taking care of it, where it came from and where it is going.

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"God commanded his army to slaughter women and children. God creates and maintains the rules by which people are damned to hell. Your God definitely creates evil."

nah jesus refuted that God. Some pseudo gnostics actually believe in multiple Gods. An old testament God and a rival God who sent Jesus. Theres a lot of gospels that were thrown out that provide evidence for thier claims but I believe humans have simply portrayed God in a way that was relevant to the culture of the time.

God created man ready for heaven but man can choose to sin and sin is not allowed in heaven. God didn't create sin. Sin is the absence of God. God IS love.

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"Bad and good are relative terms. We often make choices that benefit ourselves because such choices allowed our ancestors to procreate more successfully. This isn't difficult, and if you actually believe evolution you wouldn't need to wonder why any animal has selfish tendencies."

Basic right and wrong is universal and being an asshole is not inherited. Its learned/developed. Personalities are almost exclusively developed as opposed to being handed down generation to generation. Evolution only involves genes while personality is developed from experiences. Animals are not evil.

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" The very concepts of Hell and vicarious redemption are about the most evil things I can think of."

God didn't create hell

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"Who created mankind?"

God created mankind in his image. But instead of pointlessly creating robots, he gave us free will out of love. We have the freedom to do whatever we want to do even if it means rejecting God. The fallen angel rejected God and had to be banished from heaven. This is the story of how hell was created.

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"So you’re saying that since we are no longer barbaric, God’s stance on sin has changed"

Gods stance on sin has not changed but our interpretation on what sin is has certainly changed in modern times. If the bible was written today, it would be totally different. Do you really think God would play a sick game like asking a man to slaughter his child then saying "lol, jk" at the last second? I don't but the point of that story was to show devotion to God, it just so happened that man portrayed it in the sick twisted way that they could relate to at the time.

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" So in that case, why would you use the Bible at all? "

To get the lessons. Not to dwell on the literal context of any of the stories.

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"Who created Hell? Who decided to sacrifice one person for everyone else? How are these things not evil? The system is evil and God created the system. God is evil."

God didn't create the system though. The fallen angel created hell by turning away from God. Jesus decided to sacrifice himself. It wasn't evil because if Jesus didn't die and raise from the dead, then his life would've been quickly forgotten and people would've never believed he was divine. Since he died, he has been confirmed as the most rightous person and a model for how we should live. Without him allowing himself to be killed, he'd just have been some con artist magician.

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"oes this fit your moral view E Man?"

Theres a lot of wild stuff in the old testament that doesn't make any sense in the context of the world today. The world has changed a lot over thousands of years and people as a whole are a lot more civilized (or at least pretend to be due to laws). Its obvious that violent, uncivlized society that didn't value life a lot would portray God as such. Its inaccurate though so if you are reading the OT, you should only focus on the moral of stories because its not to be taken literal. None of it.

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"How about this? Just a couple examples, and if the second example is "figurative language" then the Ten Commandments are figurative language as well, in less you know of some manner to decipher what is figurative and what is not?"

To some degree they are. Its not like the only sins are ten commandments. There are lots of things that aren't on there. The jist is "dont do bad things" and Jesus cleared that up pretty well with the golden rule.

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"perceive as nice. If something that occurs in the world appears to be bad, there is no way God could be doing that because God does only things that appear good in my world view, this way when I speak about him with others they will say, OH WELL I GUESS HE ISN'T SO BAD. "

Good and bad are not as much about perception as you think.

Doing a bad thing to bring about a good result is a bad thing.
Doing a bad thing to a bad person is a bad thing.
Knowlingly failing to do a good thing that was needed of you is a bad thing. (omission)

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"The fact of the matter is that though God often does things that we deem as bad by our standards, they are just and good by God's. "

No. We know right from wrong. Thats why God put the holy spirit inside of us all to let us know right from wrong.

7/27/2011 6:24:00 PM

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"There was actually a great new episode of through the wormhole where they dabbled in scientific research that is being used to explain the soul. They went over a lot of different evidence for a human soul. We know its here too. Believing in a religion doesn't really help our survival odds. If anything, it decreases them but humanity ALWAYS has religion. ALWAYS. because we have soul and we are concerned about taking care of it, where it came from and where it is going. "

Your evidence that we have a soul is you saw a show on TV?

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"nah jesus refuted that God. Some pseudo gnostics actually believe in multiple Gods. An old testament God and a rival God who sent Jesus. Theres a lot of gospels that were thrown out that provide evidence for thier claims but I believe humans have simply portrayed God in a way that was relevant to the culture of the time. God created man ready for heaven but man can choose to sin and sin is not allowed in heaven. God didn't create sin. Sin is the absence of God. God IS love. "

Jesus proved that the God of the OT wasn't the God of the NT? Your Biblical support for this is....?

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"Basic right and wrong is universal and being an asshole is not inherited. Its learned/developed. Personalities are almost exclusively developed as opposed to being handed down generation to generation. Evolution only involves genes while personality is developed from experiences. Animals are not evil."

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Mental traits are as inheritable as physical traits. You don't inherit "asshole", you inherit the tendency to be an asshole. Whether you actually be one does depend on experience, just like every trait.

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"God didn't create hell"

Yes he did.

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"God didn't create the system though. The fallen angel created hell by turning away from God. Jesus decided to sacrifice himself. It wasn't evil because if Jesus didn't die and raise from the dead, then his life would've been quickly forgotten and people would've never believed he was divine. Since he died, he has been confirmed as the most rightous person and a model for how we should live. Without him allowing himself to be killed, he'd just have been some con artist magician. "

Who created the fallen angel? Even if God didn't create Hell (which I'm not conceding by the way), does he have the power to abolish it?

7/27/2011 7:03:46 PM

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"Good and bad are not as much about perception as you think. Doing a bad thing to bring about a good result is a bad thing. Doing a bad thing to a bad person is a bad thing. Knowlingly failing to do a good thing that was needed of you is a bad thing. (omission)"

I don't need the Bible to shoot holes all through this argument.


-Death penalty for murders?
-Self Defense?


I can make up this list for hours, as I'm sure Stu can as well. You are creating something that is not an absolute standard and is relative.


Also:

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"Jesus proved that the God of the OT wasn't the God of the NT? Your Biblical support for this is....?"

This...

Srsly E Man don't you ever get tired of making things up then claiming that they are supported by Christianity? I mean I can only bear so much nonsense.

[Edited on July 27, 2011 at 7:07 PM. Reason : ]

7/27/2011 7:05:37 PM

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"Jesus proved that the God of the OT wasn't the God of the NT? Your Biblical support for this is....?"

There are tons of gospels out there with accounts of Jesus saying tons of things that we would consider strange. Look up the gospel of thomas, mary and there are others I can't name. The catholic church (for you leonispro) removed any gospel that didn't increase their power.

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"I'm sorry but you're wrong. Mental traits are as inheritable as physical traits. You don't inherit "asshole", you inherit the tendency to be an asshole. Whether you actually be one does depend on experience, just like every trait."

You're saying the same thing as me. You're just saying it in a more accurate way. You inherit the tendancy to have every sort of personality and it develops according to your experiences. Same thing.

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"Yes he did."

Well you can believe that but most christians believe the fallen angel being removed from heaven is what created hell.

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"Who created the fallen angel? Even if God didn't create Hell (which I'm not conceding by the way), does he have the power to abolish it?"

God gave all the humans and angels free will. If this angel decided to not be part of heaven anymore then God allows it out of love. Free will is God's greatest gift of love to us because it makes us more than just zombies.

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"-Death penalty for murders?"

Just because society does things doesn't make them right. Governments often find themselves in a situation where they have to do bad things for the better of the society. That still doesn't make them right. Example; nuking Japan was wrong but it was good for the country.

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"-Self Defense?"

Self defense is not a bad thing. A lot of people take self defense too far at which point it becomes a bad thing. Examplel; if you can run away its not self defense.

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" You are creating something that is not an absolute standard and is relative."

There is some gray area but those situations are the minority and thats where we have to pray for guidance in making the right decisions. Soemtimes we do think we are doing the right thing and later realize we did the wrong thing. Thats why its a good thing we can repent.

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"Srsly E Man don't you ever get tired of making things up then claiming that they are supported by Christianity? I mean I can only bear so much nonsense."

That quote takes me out of context because I said some people believe that based on gospels that were thrown out. I didn't say I believe that. There are several gnostic christians though.

7/27/2011 8:37:00 PM

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"There was actually a great new episode of through the wormhole where they dabbled in scientific research that is being used to explain the soul."

they've also highlighted research that claimed to have found the area of the brain responsible for the "god" experience. they were able to recreate the experience at will by stimulating the brain.

7/27/2011 8:39:19 PM

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"jesus refuted that God."

I don't see how this is taking you out of context, you are stating that the God of the OT is not the God of Christ.

7/27/2011 8:42:43 PM