100

2/28/2011 12:37:18 AM

Quote :

"^^What make/model is that rifle? It looks like you're possibly getting some vertical stringing. I say "possibly" because that's a pretty damn good group and it may not actually be stringing. Is the barrel free floated? Another reason it could be stringing vertically is inconsistency in bullet tension. Are you trimming the brass? Do you clean case lube off the insides of the necks before loading? The shooting bags themselves could be causing the vertical stringing depending on how you hold the stock and rear bag. "

it's a savage 12 fvss. the bbl is free floated from the factory. i used a sinclair gauge to measure my chamber and haven't had any cases that were anywhere near needing trimming, although many of them are slightly over the book trim length. on my larger groups with other charge weights vertical stringing has been the culprit. these cases were FL sized and i ran them through an ultrasonic cleaner to get the lube off. would it be best for me to trim them all down to the same length? i also have some tempilaq and a propane torch so i could anneal them if it'd help. this brass is once fired R-P that i got in a trade online.

my groups seemed to get better when i held the forearm instead of just letting it rest on the bag like usual. i'm having to put the rear bag in front of the trigger gaurd or i can never get the thing on target. here's a pic of my setup. it looks all screwed up, but i keep the bags off the bbl and the butt stock off the table when i'm shooting.



i'll see what it does w/ the bipod.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 6:49 AM. Reason : asdf

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 6:58 AM. Reason : adfs]

2/28/2011 6:47:10 AM

You're doing fine in terms of safety, but yes, for maximum consistency you should be trimming them all to the exact same length. You may or may not see much improvement, but it definitely makes a difference.

2/28/2011 7:05:06 AM

ok i'll give it a try. is annealing them worth screwing with?

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 7:07 AM. Reason : also gonna move to the lee collet neck sizer die so i don't have to screw w/ lube]

2/28/2011 7:06:33 AM

Nah, annealing is only for prolonging the life of necks that get heavily or frequently resized. Good for brass that you want to last a long time, but doesn't really do jack for accuracy as far as I know.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 8:40 AM. Reason : Even less important if you're using a neck sizer]

2/28/2011 8:38:13 AM

sweet. thanks for the help man. i'll post results.

2/28/2011 8:48:38 AM

Quote :

"You're doing fine in terms of safety, but yes, for maximum consistency you should be trimming them all to the exact same length. You may or may not see much improvement, but it definitely makes a difference."

+1

Quote :

"Nah, annealing is only for prolonging the life of necks that get heavily or frequently resized. Good for brass that you want to last a long time, but doesn't really do jack for accuracy as far as I know."

+1

Some other things you might want to try if you're squeezing out the most accuracy are:
-Ditching the R-P for Winchester or Hornady (you'll have to rework the load)
-The Lee Collet neck sizer is a good idea. That die is notorious for not making enough neck tension though. The fix for that is buying undersized mandrels from Lee or chucking the mandrel up in a drill and using fine (400 + grit) sandpaper to thin it out and polish it with some flitz or other metal polish.
-Play with the seating depth after you find the best load.
-Try shooting with the rear bag under the butt. If you can't get on target then put something solid under the front or rear bag til you get close. You can make fine adjustments by squeezing the rear bag.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 10:42 AM. Reason : You could turn the necks too but that's way down the road to accuracy.]

2/28/2011 10:41:18 AM

^thanks for that post. all of those items were already on my list, but it's good to have some reassurance that i'm on the right path. i have 100 new winchester cases prepped and ready to go. i was screwing around with this RP and FC stuff b/c i got it cheap and really just wanted to break the bbl in. i plan to start over with my 100 winchester cases, varget, and the 55 gr noslers and 40 gr v-max. i've been using WLR primers so far. any need to switch to something else? would i need a BR primer for the kind of groups i'm looking? i'd read about polishing down the lee mandrel. how do i know if i have insufficient neck tension? just mic the ID of the case neck after resizing and compare to .224"? seating depth was also on my to-do list. i was getting annoyed by meplat variations on the polymer tips, so i have the hornady bullet comparators to measure off the ogive. like i said, i'm putting a bipod on it because this will mostly be a varmint rifle. would you suggest shooting off the bench w/ the bipod and a rear bag or sticking with the 2 bags and moving it under the butt like you suggest?

thanks again for all the help.

2/28/2011 11:08:08 AM

Quote :

"i've been using WLR primers so far. any need to switch to something else? would i need a BR primer for the kind of groups i'm looking?"

If you're looking for max accuracy then spend the extra $1-1.50 for match primers.
Primers aren't a huge deal but they are still a part of the equation and match primers are a tiny bit more consistent. Inconsistent primers can give you inconsistent velocities.
I'm a fan of the Federal Gold Medal primers but any of the major brands should be good. The CCIs are harder than other brands but that won't matter unless your firing pin spring is weak or your firing pin isn't fully cocked (this can happen with some rifles with aftermarket triggers).

Quote :

"how do i know if i have insufficient neck tension?"

You'll feel it when you seat the bullets. Also, IMO if I can push the bullet in fairly easily with my fingers then it's too loose. You can't really mic it and tell because a small variation in diameter makes for big differences in tension.

Quote :

"like i said, i'm putting a bipod on it because this will mostly be a varmint rifle. would you suggest shooting off the bench w/ the bipod and a rear bag or sticking with the 2 bags and moving it under the butt like you suggest?"

Play with all of those. It's different for different people. For the most part a bag under the forearm and one under the butt is going to be the best.
Bipods can work well, but you have to be cognizant of the surface the feet are resting on. You'll get the best groups with a bipod when both feet can slide with the same ease. I use a rear bag when using a bipod.

Also...have you thought of throwing Sierra Matchkings into the mix?
I don't have any experience with those in small calibers but they work great in my 308 and are sort of the standard in match bullets. They won't give you as big a puff of red as the V-max or Nosler BTs though.

I need to break out my 308 and do some more load development. I loaded a starting load of Varget with 168gr SMKs and the very first group I shot was 5 rounds into 0.70" at 100 yards off of a bipod with no rear rest. That's in a sporter weight Tikka T3 Lite.
After that I said screw load development. lol

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 11:43 AM. Reason : cant type good]

2/28/2011 11:40:48 AM

i have thought about trying the matchkings as well as the berger match varmints. i know a through and through vitals shot w/ a matchking would kill the varmint, but he might make it back to his hole or into a briar patch before he died and i like to take pics . i figured if i could get the more frangible hunting bullets to shoot well, i'd prefer them. i was thinking of the 55 gr nosler as more of a coyote load. a friend of mine has a lot of them out in caswell county.

from the reading i've done, it sounds like the bergers might be a good bet, but i'm gonna do a bunch of experimenting. that's just as much fun to me. although by the time i finalize some loads, i might have this bbl burned up.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 11:50 AM. Reason : sdf]

2/28/2011 11:49:50 AM

You're about as spot-on with the group sizes as I think you're gonna get. There's always room for improvements, but you're so close now any gains are going to be better than you could actually shoot anyway. I think you've got the right idea in experimenting with other projectiles now that you've got a solid recipe down for those.

I've used the 69gn MatchKings in 223 loads, and while they are nice, I never got any better results than with the V-Max 55's at 100yd.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2011 3:38:23 PM

i agree. i think i'm at my limit. it's not like i'm gonna throw it out just b/c i can't get it to do better than .334". i guess i should remember it is what it's supposed to be, a good still-hunting varmint rifle, and damn if it won't be perfect for that.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 3:46 PM. Reason : i'll trim the cases and see what happens.]

2/28/2011 3:46:39 PM

I always felt that I had an above average knowledge of firearms....you assholes have just shown me how little I know

2/28/2011 5:38:03 PM

haha

2/28/2011 5:39:30 PM

if you saw me sitting at my reloading bench toiling away trying to get a bullet exactly .005" off the rifling lands or trickling powder kernel by kernel while squinting trying to get a little white line to line up with a little black line, then overshooting and having to start all over...

you'd probably be happy with your current level of knowledge. one of those ignorance is bliss things. with that said, i'm fully addicted.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 6:07 PM. Reason : adsf]

2/28/2011 6:01:52 PM

I need some help spending money. I sold one of my collector .22 rifles (Winchester 52C) and I now have around $1300 in gun money to play with. I'm not putting the money in the bank, it will just get pissed away in gas and food.

Now, I am going to buy another gun to replace the void in my safe. Problem is, I dont *need* anything. I have the must haves. Lever gun, bolt gun, AR, 12ga, .22LR revolver and semi auto, 9mm fullsize, .380 compact, .22 mag, lever action .22, and more bolt and semi auto .22 rifles than you can shake a stick at.

The only pieces I am missing is a good 1911 and/or a centerfire revolver. I had a Super Blackhawk .44mag that I loved, but ammo was expensive and other than the badass factor I'm not really into centerfire revolvers.

So I'm thinking 1911. Maybe Colt Rail Gun or Springfield V12? Around $1000 if at all possible. Any suggestions for nice 1911's. Hell any suggestions for some other gun I should buy?

2/28/2011 10:12:02 PM

needs more centerfire rifle

what calibers are your lever and bolt guns?

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 10:25 PM. Reason : how bout a .410 or a 20 ga? i'd take deemarie's 20 ga over my 12 for dove hunting any day.]

but yeah everyone needs a 1911. i want one eventually, but no use right now really. would be nice to have one as a side arm when hunting.

[Edited on February 28, 2011 at 10:27 PM. Reason : adsf]

2/28/2011 10:22:18 PM

Got an FN PBR .308, Marlin 30/30, AR .223/5.56. Not a shotgun person, I have my 12ga and a single shot .410. I thought about a 45/70, but I seem to be more of a rimfire guy.

2/28/2011 10:30:15 PM

Do you have a .17hmr? I had a marlin with a stainless bbl for a while and that was a sweet gun. Like you, I really enjoy shooting rimfire, but there's a whole new level of giddy fun when you can stretch that range out an extra 100 yards or so. And for what it's worth, I think the wind drift is a little exaggerated. I never could tell any real difference between it and the 36gr federal .22lr I usually shoot.

2/28/2011 10:54:22 PM

^^Anschutz sporter ftw

^x7 there's a shitton to learn about guns. No ones even gotten into the subject of shooting cast bullet. Even farther into that is casting your own bullets. I feel like I know a lot but my boss makes me feel clueless if we start talking about cast stuff and single action revolvers. The man even shoots paper patched bullets that he casts himself out of his 458 winmag

^x8 what twist is your 223? Bullet length and twist might be bigger factors in your SMK vs v-max experience than the actual bullet design.

[Edited on March 1, 2011 at 2:33 AM. Reason : Z]

3/1/2011 2:32:44 AM

^ The 223 loads were both out of a 1/8 24" barrel. By not much different, I mean I managed to get them both dead-nuts accurate, so either would work just as well for me.

I can talk plenty about cast bullets if anyone's interested, I didn't think there was anyone else that was into that. I can't remember the last time I shot a commercial bullet, because just making them is fun all by itself.

^x3 A 17 HMR is fun, and scary accurate right off the shelf. It's like shooting 22 Mag as far as the wallet is concerned, but that round is like a laser beam.

If you're willing to get into casting, a 45/70 becomes very affordable. Frankly, it's just a badass cartridge, but I probably wouldn't own one if I didn't reload simply due to the cost of feeding it. Another incredibly fun and economical gun as a reloader is the .357Mag/.38Spl. Shooting lead and using a fluffy powder like trail boss makes feeding it practically free, and on top of that it's not like you can burn 17-18 rounds in a matter of seconds anyway. Nice lever guns can be found in .357 if that's more your speed, but I've had a blast with my GP100.

I've got a 1911, and while it's nice, I wouldn't make it a priority unless you want to do competition. There are much more entertaining guns out there.

3/1/2011 9:38:10 AM

I agree with the 38/357.
It's easy to load for and there's such a wide range of things you can load.
The only thing I'd suggest if you load 357 is to not shoot a lot of Lil'Gun. I'm not sure if Lil'Gun is responsible, but I've got some minor forcing cone erosion after maybe 2-300 full power Lil'Gun loads.

Unique is my go to powder now and I simply don't try to push for max velocities.

3/1/2011 3:21:42 PM

my brother-in-law's special forces unit had custom wilson cqb tactical .45s commissioned. absolutely badass gun. shoots like a dream

3/1/2011 11:34:18 PM

Anyone have an idea what this Springfield is? Its a 4" barrel, but it says "Compact" on the side. Its black slide and silver frame, but both look like a parkerized or matte finish and not shiney or blued. I dont think the double safety is original either. Value?

3/2/2011 11:07:25 AM

^^What Group is he in?

3/2/2011 5:39:08 PM

3rd special forces group

3/2/2011 7:58:28 PM

Love the new barrel. It won't chamber any rounds from my 30rnd mag, but will feed both 180gr Federal FMJ and 155gr Speer Hydroshocks without error using factory Glock 27 and 23 mags.

Boy do those Speer rounds kick. Quite a powerful round that speer is...


I need to pick up a .22 and practice a lot more. Given 50 rounds, I'm shooting ~10" groups (up to 5" off center) at 25 yards. It's an even circle, over half within a 6" group.

[Edited on March 2, 2011 at 8:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/2/2011 8:14:06 PM

^^^ I think it was the Springfield Lightweight Compact. Seems like they only made them for a few years. Last one that I looked at was only $600-650 it seems but I don't remember if there were any issues with it or not. I am pretty sure that it did have the ambi-safety on it though (almost seems like it was the same finish as the slide but I'm not 100% sure).

3/2/2011 8:16:41 PM

^it does look like it could be a lightweight model. The frame color looks like aluminum unless it's steel with a bake on or hard chrome over bead blast finish.
It's difficult to really tell 1911s apart from a pic.

^^that's not horrible for a baby glock at that distance.

3/2/2011 9:52:36 PM

Brandon1...

you said you are a rimfire guy and you said you are thinking about a 1911. I submit this..

http://www.aimsurplus.com/blog/introducing-german-sports-guns-gsg-1911-22lr-pistol

My father got one, and upon finding out how good of a shooter they are, he bought two more for my brother and I for christmas. The sights are "adjustable", meaning they come with three different height front sights and windage can be adjusted by tapping the rear sight back and forth (which can be a real hassle). But i've got mine shooting less than 2 inch groups at 25 yards over the bench.

It's a great gun with the feel of a 1911. Definitely much cheaper to shoot (and buy haha) than my kimber, and almost as accurate.

Just something to consider.

3/3/2011 2:45:20 AM

^ How is the reliability compared to the Chiappa/Puma 1911-22? I've seen/heard/read poor reviews on the gun's reliability (FTF and FTE are common with both CCI and bulk Federal). I've never heard of GSG before

There's the Sig Mosquito for ~$300



[Edited on March 3, 2011 at 3:32 AM. Reason : .]

3/3/2011 3:31:01 AM

^I've heard nothing but good things about the GSG 1911's. However, I'm buying a 1911 because of the 100 year history of it, and I need something in .45 (doesent everyone?). I did however consider going a little cheaper on the 1911 I get, and picking up a .22LR conversion for it so I can shoot it without breaking the bank.

^On the other side, I have heard nothing but horrible reports from the Mosquito. Several neighbors had one and hated them so badly they nearly gave them away. FTF's, FTE's, general FTW (failure to work).

3/3/2011 8:28:32 AM

the mosquito i had did pretty well with the right ammo. break-in is extremely important on them. so is having the correct spring in it. you're not gonna get it to eat the bulk junk.

3/3/2011 11:00:12 AM

GSG makes a bunch of 22LR replicas, most notably the GSG-5. Reviews have always said they make good stuff.

3/3/2011 12:19:44 PM

^^^ & ^^

Good to know... The only complaints I've heard and seen myself are the sights... Front sight is way too narrow imo and leaves a lot more room for error horizontally (compared to most other pistols)...

I've got my "sights" on 3 difference ruger variants ... hopefully will snag one when the price is right.

[Edited on March 3, 2011 at 1:56 PM. Reason : .a]

3/3/2011 1:55:36 PM

Which Rugers?
I've got a plain bull barrel 22/45 MKIII and I love it. They offer it with 1911 grip panels now and that should make for a kick ass 22.
I plan on doing the 1911 grip mod on mine sometime in the future.

3/3/2011 2:13:01 PM

Mk III with 6" tapered barrel (I love the Luger Look)



22/45 5.5" bull barrel, all blue


22/45 5.5" bull barrel with cocobolo 1911 style wood grips


[Edited on March 3, 2011 at 2:54 PM. Reason : .]

3/3/2011 2:54:33 PM

You should get the 22/45 with cocobolo grips

Have you handled those guns before? Lots of people like the regular MK frame but I don't like the grip angle. The balance is a lot different between the MK and 22/45 too due to the big difference in grip frame weight.

3/3/2011 8:26:56 PM

^ I have the 22/45 RP (sorry I never PM'd you back shmorri2). I had it up for sale, but fell in love with it and then decided to keep it. Imma put a red dot on it for super fun. It really is an amazing gun.

3/3/2011 8:30:50 PM

I have tried both actually. the MK III will take a little getting used to, but only in regards to initial sighting (because of the aggressive grip angle, I too tend to aim a little high). The 22/45 does feel more natural on initial sighting though so I will more than likely pick one up before I do the MK III. Tax refund is being deposited in the account tomorrow, but GOG does not have any of the 22/45 I like in stock. I've got a stock watch set up so hopefully I'll get an email with a sale price sometime soon

^No worries. I figured as much

I wish May would get here sooner so I can buy my reloading crap. I've got over 1000 casings deprimed and ready to go. Speaking of which... I picked up a handful of .45 brass (maybe 20 or so) when I went to the range last time... If anyone is reloading .45, lmk.


[Edited on March 3, 2011 at 8:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/3/2011 8:36:13 PM

^You are welcome to come by and shoot mine at any time. Its pretty fun and all, however I still prefer my Single Six for real plinking.

3/3/2011 8:39:48 PM

.410 shotgun suggestions?
for scaring away animals, shooting problematic vermin. 5-6 shot pump. nothing fancy. assuming an 18-20" barrel would be fine.

mossberg 500?

3/3/2011 9:42:08 PM

^Had one in .410 and have one in 12ga. I love the 500, not so much of a fan of the 870.

3/3/2011 9:54:40 PM

I had an 870 in .410 that was fun as hell to shoot. I also had an 870 in 12 gauge that I thought was garbage, but I'm left handed and was shooting a right handed gun. I'm a huge fan of the Browning pump for that reason.

3/3/2011 10:13:30 PM

Getting a bonus check within the next couple weeks... thinking about using some of it to buy a FAL parts kit/receiver and building one myself.

That might be fun.

3/4/2011 1:31:10 AM

wdprice3...

If you're going to buy a pump shotgun.. Even if you are only using it to scare something off, I would recommend getting a 20 ga. over the .410 for two reasons: 1. believe it or not, the 20ga ammo is cheaper and more readily available... and 2. If down the road, you want a shotgun for more than scaring things off... the 20ga has a much broader range of uses than the .410.

And when it comes to mossberg 500 or remington 870.. I'm an 870 fan. I've never had a single problem with feeding, ejecting or firing of my 870. I did however, have a mossberg blow a round inside the chamber while I was leading a clay. I'm pretty sure it was a freak accident, but i'll never shoot a mossberg again.

3/4/2011 3:25:51 AM

not for me; for my dad. he won't need much ammo, cares more about the gun price being lower than about brand. and he's dead set on a .410.... because he's a wimp and he wants my mother to be able to shoot it... I know the 20 gauge is a better choice and easy for anyone to shoot, but convincing a gun idiot of that isn't worth my time (all I hear is, "that is way too much power" blah blah blah blah).

3/4/2011 7:01:12 AM

In all honesty, even if he can handle a 20 (or a 12), if he isn't comfortable with it, he has no business with it. I feel like my fiancee can handle my 38sp airweight (as a matter of fact, I know she can, I've seen her fire it), she isn't comfortable with it, and for that reason I don't want her using it ever, except at the range to get more comfortable with it.

3/4/2011 9:39:14 AM

If you're not opposed to a break-barrel 410, you can get those little one shot deals for around $100. I've got one that I think I paid $85 for, and it's taken several squirrels.

3/4/2011 2:54:08 PM

So I'm taking two classes coming up in the next couple of weeks.

May 12-13- Carthage
Defensive Concepts NC
2-day Defensive Carbine
1k of .223 and 400 handgun

May 19-20- Fayetteville
Osage Combatives
2-day Handgun Combatives
600 rounds of hangun (includes low light/night shooting)

Should be a whole lot of fun.

3/4/2011 3:03:17 PM