Quote :

"The Iowa game was bad, but at least we were in the game, and against a good team who was ranked most of that year. Both teams played slow as fuck more than state just playing awful."

The Iowa game wasn't really all that slow (it was played faster than our season-average tempo), just inefficient as fuck.

The St. John's was a different kind of terrible because only we were playing like shit.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 6:06 PM. Reason : V]

3/6/2009 6:02:45 PM

for page 102:

Worst game ever was the St. Johns game in december of 04 I think. That shit was on like fox sports bumfuckegypt and I had it on digital cable so I got to watch. I got really excited that I'd get to see us play and I sat in the basement of my parents house with some friends and watched....


THAT was the worst game ever. Hodge may as well have not shown up. I think there were two inbounds plays that game that they threw off our backs and layed them in for a score. That play is something I don't miss. We basically got run by an bunch of And1 failures playing for a team who lost all their scholarship players from the year before.


The Iowa game was bad, but at least we were in the game, and against a good team who was ranked most of that year. Both teams played slow as fuck more than state just playing awful.

3/6/2009 6:04:36 PM

Quote :

"yea... but until year 6 with herb, it was please make the NIT for him too, you cant forget that..."

not true, at least 2, if not 3, of his first 5 years we were bubble teams

and besides, i know you all like to bring up that lowe started with a bare cupboard, but mccauley, fells, atsur, costner, grant, were all better than ANY player(s) sendek was left with except CC and maybe gainey.

personally, i get tired of comparing lowe to sendek, he should jsut be compared to other coaches in general, but when others bring something up i cant resist.



and to the other people, making the tourney is ALWAYS better than not making it. its like bowl season, sure some of the lower bowls are crappy but would you rather be considered not even good enough to make a crappy bowl? if you make the tourney as an at-large, it basically calls you one of the top 50 teams in the country.

3/6/2009 6:52:28 PM

Quote :

"not true, at least 2, if not 3, of his first 5 years we were bubble teams"

Nope

3/6/2009 7:09:36 PM

I've debated this briefly with Ernie before, but I have to agree with WolfAApack about the St. John's game being worse

It might not be a worse overall game, but it was a worse State performance

Quote :

"10 FIRST-HALF POINTS"

3/6/2009 7:34:30 PM

Yeah, I won't debate that we played worse in the St. John's game.

Quote :

"The St. John's was a different kind of terrible because only we were playing like shit."

Wasn't the game on New Year's Eve? I remember listening to most of the first half on the radio, drinking heavily, and being in utter disbelief when I heard the final score later that night.

3/6/2009 7:50:19 PM

we played with them during the 2nd half

but the 1st half was the worst half of wolfpack basketball that i can recall ever seeing

3/6/2009 7:52:43 PM

Quote :

"and besides, i know you all like to bring up that lowe started with a bare cupboard, but mccauley, fells, atsur, costner, grant, were all better than ANY player(s) sendek was left with except CC and maybe gainey."

Stop. Just stop. Don't bring this back up. I have ranted at length about this far too many times. Do not tempt me to do it again.

I'll offer a brief retort: damnit it was supposed to be brief... now look what you made me do!)

State had Atsur for only half the season. When they got him back State went on a nice run to end the year. The rest of the time Grant and Fells had to handle the ball. Yes, our offense was run by Grant... a junior SF that averaged a 1.1/1 TO to assist ratio, and Fells... a sophomore who was (and still is) a turnover machine with a pathetic 1/1.5 TO/assist ratio. Even Atsur only managed a 1.8 TO/assist ratio for the season.

Costner, despite being obviously talented, was a redshirt freshmen who only played 5 games the previous year and averaged 2.8 pts/game. McCauley was forced to play the 5, despite the fact that he was recruited to be perimeter-oriented SF/PF. It wasn't until the end of year 1 that Ben was asked to bulk up.

Then, there's everybody else which consisted of:

Dennis Horner - after 2 years of grooming he's finally become a solid bench player
Trevor Ferguson - even now I don't want him getting any minutes
Brian Niemen - ::shudder::

So, the team consisted of a decent junior SF (Grant) who ran PG for 1/2 the year, a talented yet TO prone sophomore (Fells), talented yet inexperienced "headcase in the making" whom was coming off injury (Costner), an undersized and inexperienced PF starting at center (McCauley), and a decent PG who missed half the year with an injury.

And FTR, Lowe recognized the deficiency at PG and secured 2 transfers during his 1st season. Given his late start and inexperience in recruiting (most HS junior committed before Lowe was even hired) he brought in Gonzalez for next years class, hoping one of them would pan out. Degand got injured, Gonzalez sucked, and Johnson was so bad that he transferred. Yes, he transferred b/c he couldn't get playing time over freshman Javi Gonzalez.


....


Alright, you fucks listen up. I do NOT want to go on this fucking rant for the 100th time. For the love of God and all that is holy STOP FUCKING BRING UP THIS STUPID ASS LAME ARGUMENT. Noe of you want to read it, and I sure as hell don't want to waste my time writing it.


I left once, I should left for good, so this time I will. Fuck all of you. I'm out.

3/6/2009 8:06:31 PM

Quote :

"BOOKS IN SPORTSTALK"

3/6/2009 8:20:59 PM

better than (not that you're doing this) a bunch of impatient state hate

3/6/2009 8:23:59 PM

Quote :

"Alright, you fucks listen up. I do NOT want to go on this fucking rant for the 100th time. For the love of God and all that is holy STOP FUCKING BRING UP THIS STUPID ASS LAME ARGUMENT. Noe of you want to read it, and I sure as hell don't want to waste my time writing it."

you gonna give us the same analysis for ishua benjamin, jeremy hyatt and...and who else? cc harrison and gainey were our best players sendek's first. in the acc finals, zwikker (i think, one of those big unc white guys) guarded gainey b/c they knew he couldnt shoot and wasnt quick enough to drive past him, we didnt have enough size to punish them for putting their pf on whatever scrub we had at center.

lowe had a mcd's AA and multiple top 100 players, can you say the same about sendek

so i havent seen your argument before, but when you actually start comparing the players side by side instead of just saying OMG LOWE HAD NOTHING w/out mentioning a single robinson-to-sendek transition i might actually start listening.

i'd help you out if i was at home with my nc state trading cards (damn right) to name players or if i could find that roster on the net, but i'm having no luck right now.

3/6/2009 8:48:18 PM

please stay away forever

3/6/2009 8:48:22 PM

excellent rebuttal!

3/6/2009 8:53:23 PM

what i've learned from this thread is a lot of my fellow state fans (for example rwoody, just because he posted the most recently i'll use his name) are too impatient in my opinion...cliche but its a marathon not a sprint...this time NEXT year critique is a lot more valid...i honestly think there is a huge difference in a coach's 3rd and 4th year in college...imo you HAVE to give a coach 3 years to establish their shit...THEN and only then do you start judging their style, their system, their results, with true criticism and analysis...i could list a ton of great coaches who struggled in their first 3 years...i'm willing to wait until the 5th to criticize, give him 4 years to set things up, but i think you have to give him 3 full years to establish things, regardless of how he took over the program

roy williams took over a program and won a national title in 3 years, but he also had 20 years of college recruiting ties, lowe had zero

3/6/2009 9:01:41 PM

Next year is when these conversations should be happening.

Not this year.

Just let it rest.

3/6/2009 9:07:37 PM

Quote :

"Worst game ever was the St. Johns game in december of 04 I think."

That 10 points is still an NCAA record

The lowest one-half point total in NCAA history since the introduction of the shot clock. Even worse was that St John's sucked baws that year

3/6/2009 9:29:20 PM

NCAA record? wow...just wow...shove that in the face of UNC and Duke fan State haters who are all like "DUR I BET YOU WISH YOU HAD SENDEK NOW"

F that

3/6/2009 9:31:49 PM

i agree completely with TreeTwista. I'm not happy where we are, but if we jump ship every 3-4 years, we will NEVER get there

3/6/2009 9:35:40 PM

^^I remember ESPN saying that after it happened (Or possibly even Tony Haynes saying that on the post game). I just distinctly remember that stat....

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 10:12 PM. Reason : ^^]

3/6/2009 10:11:57 PM

it was one of those halves where anyone on the wolf web could chuck up a 3 every possession and get lucky every once in a while and score at least 15 in a half. I couldn't believe that crap.

3/6/2009 10:15:00 PM

Quote :

"imo you HAVE to give a coach 3 years to establish their shit"

you speak in absolutes too often

it seems obvious that you would have a line where you would give a coach less than that

say, take an extreme, your teams wins oh i dont know 5 straight natl champ, the coach retires, the next guy goes 0-everything the next 3 years, do you bring him back for a 4th?

now obviously that is very, very extreme but my point is, it seems like you have to have a line, and mine and yours aren't the same, what is yours? and even to help your argument, it seems like their would have to be something else going on other than just the coach for the kind of turnaround i cited, but you have to think the coach is doing SOMETHING wrong, right?

so i guess my question to the lowe lovers, what would lowe have to have done to this season to make you understand if he got fired, not call for his head, just not be outraged if he was fired? i have already said what i thought was needed for his job to be absolutely safe this year, but i would like to know some other's opinions for what would have made his job UNsafe? lets assume no major injuries, etc, etc

edit: as for the "you shouldnt miss sendek b/c he lost game x badly" people, i think it is possible to be somewhat glad someone is gone, but not necessarily feel you are better off w/out them, say, iraqis with saddamn.


[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 10:20 PM. Reason : they were prob having hte same argument, have to give the US at LEAST 3 yrs before you throw shoes!!]

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 10:21 PM. Reason : a]

3/6/2009 10:18:13 PM

There is absolutely nothing that Lowe could have done this season, short of embarrassing our team and university on a grand scale, that would have made me okay with him being fired.

3/6/2009 10:21:18 PM

Quote :

"so i guess my question to the lowe lovers, what would lowe have to have done to this season to make you understand if he got fired, not call for his head, just not be outraged if he was fired? i have already said what i thought was needed for his job to be absolutely safe this year, but i would like to know some other's opinions for what would have made his job UNsafe? lets assume no major injuries, etc, etc"

Seriously regress

Like 0-16

There's no sense in firing any head coach after just three seasons unless he's gone out of his to prove that he can't handle the job.

If you think Lowe has done that, you're one loony dude.

Quote :

"as for the "you shouldnt miss sendek b/c he lost game x badly" people, i think it is possible to be somewhat glad someone is gone, but not necessarily feel you are better off w/out them, say, iraqis with saddamn."

What the holy fuck are you babbling about?

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 10:25 PM. Reason : ]

3/6/2009 10:24:39 PM

Let it be noted that the Herb/NC State situation was compared to the Saddam/Iraq situation on page 102 of the Sidney Lowe Credibility watch.

Can we lock this shit already?

3/6/2009 10:27:21 PM

I don't remember watching the St Johns game, I don't remember where I was. I remember I was out on Glenwood during the Iowa game, so I didn't see that, but I remember seeing the score and being like, WTF? It was like 47-43 or something? SO glad I didn't watch it, it must have been unbearable.

3/6/2009 10:33:01 PM

Nobody here is saying Herb sucked specifically because of game X....its just that those games were typical of nc state shit that happened under him.

Quote :

"roy williams took over a program and won a national title in 3 years, but he also had 20 years of college recruiting ties, lowe had zero "

He also took over a team with 3 lottery picks and added a 4th for the same draft. All 3 of them were number 1 at their positions, and top 10 recruits out of high school. Oh yeah and one of them was a point guard.

Quote :

"i agree completely with TreeTwista. I'm not happy where we are, but if we jump ship every 3-4 years, we will NEVER get there"

also, this isn't a situation for me where I'm just being patient with Lowe because I think he deserves time if nothing else, or that he deserves time because he's "one of us" or "won us a NC" (for the record...I fucking hate the lowe defenders that use that line). I actually like some of the things he's done on and off the court. He's a nice guy, he's as classy as they come, he has started to recruit well and he's going toe to toe with the best schools in the country for recruits, he wears some awesome suits, and all I hear from recruits is how much they like coach Lowe. On the floor, he has shown that he is an excellent game manager, when he gets good guard play we win games, and he has shown the willingness to adjust his style for individual games and for the team in general.

Honestly, besides the record and lack of point guard play, I can't find another flaw in him. Defense is lacking at times but we are tremendously improved, and I think its personell more than anything.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 11:37 PM. Reason : ]

3/6/2009 11:34:26 PM

^couldn't have said it better, totally agree

3/7/2009 12:05:17 AM

Quote :

"Wasn't the game on New Year's Eve? "

i don't think so

i'm not positive

but i don't think so

it was definitely late december though

[Edited on March 7, 2009 at 1:01 AM. Reason : t]

3/7/2009 1:01:11 AM

^december 30th.

3/7/2009 1:37:22 AM

i win

3/7/2009 1:38:55 AM

i compared sendek to a tyrannical dictator, people!

i should be getting mass applaus, should i not?

3/7/2009 1:50:56 AM

^it's been done before, try being original

3/7/2009 2:38:54 AM

this thread has been since page 1.

still credible

[Edited on March 7, 2009 at 8:44 AM. Reason : a]

3/7/2009 8:41:27 AM

Quote :

"also, this isn't a situation for me where I'm just being patient with Lowe because I think he deserves time if nothing else, or that he deserves time because he's "one of us" or "won us a NC" (for the record...I fucking hate the lowe defenders that use that line). I actually like some of the things he's done on and off the court. He's a nice guy, he's as classy as they come, he has started to recruit well and he's going toe to toe with the best schools in the country for recruits, he wears some awesome suits, and all I hear from recruits is how much they like coach Lowe. On the floor, he has shown that he is an excellent game manager, when he gets good guard play we win games, and he has shown the willingness to adjust his style for individual games and for the team in general. "

QFMFT. well said.

3/7/2009 9:16:40 AM

I'd love to know what Sid tells the team at half time. There is nothing that I've seen on the court that makes me believe they even discuss basketball.

3/7/2009 1:15:31 PM

a huge lowe supporter, i do acknowledge that we almost always come out flat at halftime.

3/7/2009 1:17:23 PM

I wish he would at least try to get in the ref's faces. I mean, ACC officials let Coach K put his arm around them and tell them he's rape and kill their mothers, so I don't see why Sid can't ask the refs to at least call a fair game.

3/7/2009 2:00:45 PM

12 minutes of questionable credibility.

3/7/2009 2:09:10 PM

hey guys!

Sid set a new personal best for ACC wins!

3/7/2009 2:09:51 PM

the only thing that really bothered me this game besides players underperforming for 12 minutes straight is the fact that Sidney never once went off on the refs when they made such deflating, blatantly bad calls

you have to understand psychology, bad calls do shake up and deflate our team and it gets in their heads and if Sidney got mad it would give them some anger and energy as well

3/7/2009 2:12:38 PM

I forgot to mention, that my one beef with sidney is his inability to control the refs. Its not about one call here or there when we're getting bwned, its shit like today where every time we throw an entery pass to the post, miami is hanging all over our backs. Thats a foul every fucking time. Its called on us, so why not call it when its committed against us? He gets totally disrespected by the officials and I can't figure out why. Maybe its because we suck. Maybe its because the acc has an agenda to keep the bad teams down, you know...give miami that extra win since they're a bubble team. I don't know what the answer is. I'd rather him be respectful than act like Greenberg, but its really frustrating to watch us get disrespected like that.

3/7/2009 2:15:36 PM

bottom 3

3 years straight

3/7/2009 4:44:13 PM

holy shit really?

this changes everything.

3/7/2009 8:38:44 PM

can we get an ***OFFICIAL NCSU vs IOWA ACC/BIG10 CHALLENGE THREAD***


12/2/09
8:30pm ET
Raleigh, NC



tough game. they return their top 4 scorers. they beat Kansas State, Penn State, Northwestern, Wisconsin and Michigan...and had some heartbreaking losses including a 2-pointer and a 3-pointer to Ohio State and a 4-pointer to Purdue

[Edited on March 7, 2009 at 9:14 PM. Reason : 3]

3/7/2009 9:09:27 PM

Bad loss. Hard to believe you can go that long without scoring. Uconn Pitt game had teams that could score effortlessly. Then again, no one on our team would start for their teams

3/7/2009 10:00:26 PM

Bad loss. Hard to believe you can go that long without scoring. Uconn Pitt game had teams that could score effortlessly. Then again, no one on our team would start for their teams

3/7/2009 10:00:26 PM

Why are the last two pages dwelling on Herb?

Sidney should not be compared to Herb but to other coaches now like someone said already.

3/8/2009 11:25:51 PM

The last two pages weren't about comparing Sid to Herb

They were about Herb's greatest hits

3/8/2009 11:28:22 PM

Teh last two pages aren't dwelling on Herb. The last all the pages are dwelling on Herb.

3/9/2009 9:38:36 AM

Quote :

" That 10 points is still an NCAA record The lowest one-half point total in NCAA history since the introduction of the shot clock. Even worse was that St John's sucked baws that year"

Naw. Last year Kansas State held someone to 4 points in the second half. Princeton had one in 2005 where they had 10 in one half and 11 in the other.

3/9/2009 10:32:41 AM