And I say this only half-way joking...

If teams start zoning the shit out of us because we can't shoot, do we ever turn to our secret assassin?

1/16/2014 9:30:41 AM

Quote :

"Good Lord people. Gottfried isn't going anywhere. We're coming off two straight tourney appearances and had to replace an entire starting lineup (hold TJ). Everybody knew this year would be rough. That said, he really needs to bring in an assistant that knows how to coach defense. I know we're the youngest team in the country, but we shouldn't be horrid defensively year after year."

+1

1/16/2014 9:31:00 AM

It seems like we only score when everything is perfectly executed and the UCLA offense comes together. We always rely on executing the perfect play to score. We need players to step up when the play breaks down(i.e on every zone defense). That only happens if we recruit better shooters.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 10:17 AM. Reason : ]

1/16/2014 10:16:15 AM

It doesn't matter what you do if you can't retain talent. We will always be rebuilding. The "tournament appearance" you speak of was with final four talent. Nice accomplishment.

1/16/2014 10:21:32 AM

^^hopefully the twins and lacey will help with that

^i know, i'm still pissed that he wasn't able to keep wood and howell around

1/16/2014 10:25:54 AM

Quote :

"Everybody knew this year would be rough."

How many McD's AAs do Missouri, Pitt, NC Central, UVA, and Wake have in comparison to us?

We have a top 20 class almost every year and yet we are currently about the 80th best team.

I like Gott too but this is getting out of hand. Getting out coached by Haith and Buzz is terrible.

1/16/2014 10:46:53 AM

Quote :

"We have a top 20 class almost every year and yet we are currently about the 80th best team"

In terms of who is on our roster right now, we've had 2 top 20 classes and they're all freshmen and sophomores. And without Purvis, I'm not even sure if that class would have been top 20. Gott is recruiting well so he has at least 2 more years, and if we've had 4 top 20 classes in a row and are still 80th then he should be gone.

1/16/2014 10:52:45 AM

ffs the last 2 seasons werent that bad (16/dance).this season is far from over and were not out yet. if gott can stop slinging his D at everyone in the first three rows of PNC hell be around for a while. the negativity in here drives me fucking nuts sometimes.

^^ ITS ONE FUCKNG SEASON. GROW UP.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:05 AM. Reason : .]

1/16/2014 11:04:24 AM

Quote :

"The "tournament appearance" you speak of was with final four talent."

We had exactly one player get drafted from this "final four talent" team. And he wasn't picked til late in the 2nd round (zo).

I know CJL was a special head case, but saying we had more talent than pretty much anyone else in the country is just dumb.

This isn't Carolina where you have 4 guys going in the top of the first round.

1/16/2014 11:04:53 AM

Quote :

"but either way it's ridiculous to watch the team clank contested long range jumper after contested long range jumper less than 10 seconds into the shot clock"

I'm 100% sure that's what they're being coached to do in practice

1/16/2014 11:09:59 AM

I like Gott as well. And when his offensive system is run even half effectively, it is just awesome to watch. This team is super young, and based on his results from the last two years, he is far removed from the hot seat.

But then again, he lost to Buzz. No way to recover from that. Fire him now!

1/16/2014 11:10:44 AM

i mean think about it. look up the stats of the BEST player we have sent to the NBA in the last 5 years. look up duke/carolina and compare. almost every talented kid who graduates at least considers either or both schools at some point. we have 1 player on a roster, jj hickson, who was 1 and done. duke and unc have 30 combined, playing in the NBA right now. people really need to quit being so delusional. any season we have that takes us to or beyond a sweet 16 should be looked at as an absolutely incredible coaching job.

1/16/2014 11:14:06 AM

Quote :

"^^ ITS ONE FUCKNG SEASON. GROW UP."

Not really. We underachieved badly last year. Preseason conference pick. #6 in nation. We had the talent.

Quote :

"This team is super young"

We start a senior, a junior, a sophomore, and two freshmen. That's fairly typical these days.

By contrast Wake has one senior and no juniors in their rotation.

1/16/2014 11:24:29 AM

We're 331 of 351 teams in weighted experience

http://kenpom.com/height.php?s=ExpRank

1/16/2014 11:28:34 AM

Not that it matters, but...

We start a redshirt senior who hasn't averaged over 10 mpg before this season, a junior who's playing his first season of Division 1 basketball, and two freshmen (one freshman replaced another freshman in the starting lineup).

And Wake has two seniors in their rotation (one is a grad student). They don't have a freshman in their rotation.

1/16/2014 11:31:51 AM

http://statsheet.com/bhsb/mcplayers_by_college

Here's a sad stat. Since 2000 we are tied for 9th for most McDonald's All-Americans.

Who brought up Duke/UNC JayMCnasty? I'm saying we clearly have more talent year by year than the UVAs, the Wakes, the Clemsons, and yet we are still there in the middle with them.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:34 AM. Reason : Jesus are you really trying to justify a loss to Wake?]

1/16/2014 11:32:18 AM

Quote :

"Jesus are you really trying to justify a loss to Wake?"

Nope, just using facts to point-out that you're wrong.


[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:39 AM. Reason : ]

1/16/2014 11:38:35 AM

gott deserves 10 years. last year we had a good bit of talent but there was a cancer behind the scenes plaguing us, and we still made the dance. i dont care about some stat dating back to two coaches ago.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:40 AM. Reason : .]

1/16/2014 11:40:08 AM

don't bring this shit up again.. nobody is comparing us to duke and uncs great teams. last year we clearly had at least even talent to duke and superior talent to everyone else in the acc. lets not pretend last season was successful at all. those guys didn't get drafted because

A. gott let them leave too ealry and
B. our embarrassing season made them risky picks

lets not act like brown and leslie suddenly became talented under Gott. They were elite recruits out of high school. They should be on this years team plain and simple. We would be mediocre still but Gott can't use inexperience as an excuse when retaining players is part of his responsibility.

of course all of this is the players' fault. coaches don't play in the games but don't forget that everything the players do is the coaches responsibility.

1/16/2014 11:48:12 AM

you mean, like being recruited and coached during their growing years by a guy who cant even keep his own son out of jail?

1/16/2014 11:50:49 AM

last year we clearly had superior talent to miami's team

you heard it here first, folks

1/16/2014 11:51:13 AM

The most frustrating aspect of Gottfried's coaching is probably the biggest reason he recruits so well.

He has this unwavering, completely unjustified confidence in what he is doing. He doesn't recognize his weaknesses at all. He laughs off the defensive criticisms like it's a minor blemish on a super model.

When you contrast this with Doeren, it's interesting. When I hear and read Doeren talk about football, it sounds like he fully understands what is going on. He just couldn't do anything about it with regards to this year's team. Which almost scares me more. It concerned me in some ways because it sounded like he had the perspective of a knowledgeable fan - though in other ways I appreciated that perspective.

Gott meanwhile has the old fashioned arrogance of a coach who knows he's the man and he's smarter than all the critics. I'm not sure which is honestly better. I guess I'd rather have a guy with that arrogance who is actually justified in thinking like that. Most of the best coaches in sports are total assholes.

1/16/2014 12:00:08 PM

Quote :

"He laughs off the defensive criticisms like it's a minor blemish on a super model. "

Quote :

" Gott meanwhile has the old fashioned arrogance of a coach who knows he's the man and he's smarter than all the critics."

Just wondering, what do you base this on? His interviews? Or do you have some behind the scenes contact with him?

1/16/2014 12:02:06 PM

All the behind the scenes looks into practices and meetings between coaches that they show on tv sometimes show them coaching and talking about defense and defensive strategies

execution is clearly an issue, and 40 minutes of effort on defense, but some people want to act like he doesnt even try to coach defense

1/16/2014 12:11:11 PM

I didn't know there was a twitter for Drunk Mark Gottfried. He's an okay guy.

1/16/2014 1:26:57 PM

Other than the obvious defensive issues under Gott, up to this point we've seen what his teams can do offensively when the talent/experience is there. Hopefully with guys like Anya and Barber having the physical tools to be great defenders, we see some improvements as early as next season in our overall defensive play.

The one thing I'd like to see him do is recruit more guys that can shoot the ball. We've had only one real 3 point threat each of the last 3 seasons (and even then the only thing Wood/Turner do well is shoot so it makes them easier to guard as well). Lee has been way up and down, Cat/Lewis have been really poor recently, and it seems like when Turner isn't just catching/shooting he's turning it over. As easy as it is to say "why aren't we being coached to play against a zone" its tough when we're bricking the hell out of ever jumper. Hopefully adding Lacey and the Martin twins next year helps in this regard.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 1:59 PM. Reason : TBDV]

1/16/2014 1:54:45 PM

these threads should be titled "[name] cred thread" because it sounds better imo

1/16/2014 2:12:49 PM

Quote :

"Nope, just using facts to point-out that you're wrong."

Wake Forest is the 36th least experienced team to our 19th. Our talent is still easily better than theirs.

Our current team has 6 top 100 recruits, with a 7th sitting out and 2/3 more signed (both Martins would be if not for injury).
Barber (McD)
Lewis (McD)
Warren (McD)
Turner
Washington
Anya

Not chopped liver. Some of you are starting to sound like IC saying they don't have talent. Next year's team will almost literally be a team full of top 100 recruits combined with Freeman and Lee.

I dare someone to rank our team by recruiting ranks with the likes of Virginia and see how badly we outweigh them.

Our recruiting classes should not be getting us first round losses to Temple and now likely a NIT appearance this year. At some point you have to realize that its Xs and Os. Gott is the opposite of TOB.

1/16/2014 2:21:45 PM

i'm not arguing any of that

you said

Quote :

"We start a senior, a junior, a sophomore, and two freshmen. That's fairly typical these days."

our experience isn't typical, hence us being #331 of 351 in experience.

you said

Quote :

"By contrast Wake has one senior"

they have two

1/16/2014 2:25:29 PM

It is also about having some depth not just having 4-5 top 100 players, especially with how fouls are now called and how it seems like fouls are always called on our team in the past.

You need guys in the program willing to rebound and play defense, 4 year guys that fill a role. Right now we are stuck in that middle spot, we have some good young talent but lack some quality junior or senior role players that can lead, know how to win close games, and occasionally go off for a big night. Our freshman although talented are still very raw.

Gott is still trying to backload from years of terrible recruiting. I don't care that we have Brown and CJL there were years around those players where complete classes were worthless. It is hard to be successful with complete classes having zero or one player stay for four years. Even last year as much talent as the team had the total lack of depth was a huge issue.

Hopefully Gott's recruiting, even if a player transfers here and there will be more consistent and get the program back to some stability where we have some 1-2 year players, with some 4 year players, but all want to be here and we aren't stuck with years like this year with 1 senior, 2 junior transfers, and then a ton of young raw players.

And we need to work on our offense vs. the zone and defense in general too.

1/16/2014 2:35:13 PM

Quote :

"Hopefully with guys like Anya and Barber having the physical tools to be great defenders, we see some improvements as early as next season in our overall defensive play. "

barber is a shitastic defender.

1/16/2014 2:43:07 PM

Let's not talk about how many freshmen, sophomores, etc etc we start. Our team is anchored by Warren, one year of experience, successfully making the leap from 4th option to go-to guy. Otherwise, we have 5 players with no D-1 experience playing big time minutes. One player who's never shown the ability to play D-1 basketball before this year getting big time minutes. A transfer who's more of a complementary piece than a star. And Tyler Lewis in his second year year as a backup getting fewer and fewer minutes.

This team has talent and they'll win a game or two they aren't supposed to win. But no one realistically expected this team to seriously compete this year. The NCAAs were always a long shot.

We want to get through this year with our young guys showing growth and getting experience, no one defecting and hopefully Warren sticking with college ball for one more year. Bring everyone but Vandy back, add in Abu, the Martins and Trevor Lacey and we should be a force next year.

If that happens and next year's a bust, Gott's not going to work out. It's that simple.

1/16/2014 2:46:30 PM

Quote :

"barber is a shitastic defender."

what? most of the time he's been one of our better defenders

1/16/2014 2:50:02 PM

not the games i've seen. well he is a decent half-court defender, but he is the worst on the team at transition defense.

constantly loses his man in transition, leading to wide open threes or uncontested drives to the basket. (killed us in the Pitt game)

also, last night not fouling his man near the end of a close game and ducking out of the way to give him an easy layup, despite being in no foul trouble. I yelled at my TV for that bullshit.

1/16/2014 3:05:43 PM

Barber is regarded as one of the best man-to-man perimeter defenders in the conference

1/16/2014 3:39:51 PM

Quote :

"We start a senior, a junior, a sophomore, and two freshmen. That's fairly typical these days."

not that young, definitely inexperienced

1/16/2014 3:49:46 PM

the only player on our team with a worse defensive rating than cat is lewis, although I think that's our defensive gameplan - let the PG drive to rim and have our bigs block their shot. except, you know, when the refs call it a foul

1/16/2014 5:01:10 PM

Quote :

"Just wondering, what do you base this on? His interviews? Or do you have some behind the scenes contact with him?"

they gotta guard us too, pal

and the way he talks about not leading the ACC in FG% defense. Like it's 1980 and that's what people think actually qualifies as the sole factor of defense

the arrogance is a mix of that and the behind the scenes talk of his relationship with players, which granted, is all hearsay. but he certainly comes across publicly as more of an authority figure than "one of the guys"

again, this is not necessarily a bad thing. and you may be reading too much into the word. I'm not saying he's a major asshole or anything. Just that he's in charge and is stuck in his ways.

1/16/2014 5:15:52 PM

If he is manned up on someone, he is good. But, that's a big if.

1/16/2014 5:42:38 PM

So it turns out Mizzou actually sucks..

1/16/2014 8:58:56 PM

Quote :

"Hopefully Gott's recruiting, even if a player transfers here and there will be more consistent and get the program back to some stability where we have some 1-2 year players, with some 4 year players, but all want to be here and we aren't stuck with years like this year with 1 senior, 2 junior transfers, and then a ton of young raw players. "

i dont see how you can "hope" for this. Its more like a wish based on what we've seen. He brought in lewis, purvis and warren as his first real class right?

3 good players in that class.

1 transferred right away
1 is going to transfer
1 is going to prematurely enter the nba draft

Not only is that enough evidence to not be hopeful for stability, but it is a clear indicator that we have the least stability of any program in the conference. Right now, he's relying on finding transfers (junk players) as the only form of experience on our team.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 9:25 PM. Reason : these are just HIS guys. if we count the guys that aren't his its worse.]

1/16/2014 9:22:49 PM

^ did I use the word hope incorrectly? Looks like we said the exact same thing.

Also Lewis isn't gone yet and not holding a player going to the draft against him. Plus the current freshman, all 4, look like they are a solid stable class. You are such a troll why did I even respond?

1/16/2014 9:32:50 PM

Quote :

"1 is going to prematurely enter the nba draft"

oh noes! i'd hate for us to acquire the type of talented players that can go pro early from playing so well in college, especially in the one-and-done era of college basketball. that's why the kentucky team that won it all a couple years ago had a bunch of 5th year seniors. because that's how you hang banners nowadays.

1/16/2014 9:44:02 PM

You people think having an average player enter his name into the draft is some sort of acccomplishment?

Quote :

"oh noes! i'd hate for us to acquire the type of talented players that can go pro early from playing so well in college, especially in the one-and-done era of college basketball. that's why the kentucky team that won it all a couple years ago had a bunch of 5th year seniors. because that's how you hang banners nowadays."

Theres a difference between leaving school to enter the draft and being drafted. You really need to learn that difference. The difference between guys like Anthony Davis and guys like CJ Leslie.

I could put my name in the draft this year. That doesn't mean I would have been a good get for an ACC team. Anybody can enter the draft but not many guys can get drafted and THEN have a prolonged career in the NBA. Thats what it means to be ready. Hickson is the only player we ever had that was ready early.

Quote :

"not holding a player going to the draft against him."

leaving this year would ruin his whole career. he is nowhere near ready.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:34 PM. Reason : wow]

1/16/2014 11:33:07 PM

who says an extra year for CJL would've given him a long NBA career? why do you whine so much?

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:36 PM. Reason : i, too, hate on 21 year olds for making 6 figures a year]

1/16/2014 11:35:49 PM

It may or may not have considering our coaching skills are pretty suspect which is probably why he left anyway. All of the evidence shows that Gott has zero influence or power over any of his players.

Most other big conference teams have 1 or 2 guys that good who return every year. The good ones have several.

1/16/2014 11:39:26 PM

So just ignoring that Gott got them to stay around an extra year in the first place?

1/16/2014 11:47:16 PM

The NCAA typically grants 4 years of eligibility.

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:57 PM. Reason : he doesn't get credit for getting average pro prospects to come back as juniors]

1/16/2014 11:52:12 PM

WTF are you talking about? This is pretty weak even for you.

1/16/2014 11:54:03 PM

Does Roy get credit for convincing McAdoo to cost himself millions of dollars? Is it about being ready for the NBA, or having enough money to live comfortably for the next 70 years?

[Edited on January 16, 2014 at 11:59 PM. Reason : E Man is just hating on teenagers, as usual]

[Edited on January 17, 2014 at 12:00 AM. Reason : he can't get a job as a coach or pro scout, so he hates on 19 year olds to feel better]

1/16/2014 11:59:27 PM