Quote :

"i dont know what team you have been watching this year but our deep BENCH is the reason we have pretty much won every game in the last month or two."

Who was contributing off the bench? Horner? Horner won games for us?

3/16/2009 11:03:47 AM

If ESPN ever revives that TILT show

Horner could step in for Michael Madsen if he chose not to reprise his role as 'The Matador' without missing a beat

3/16/2009 11:07:57 AM

michael madsen has sprung up a lot this weekend

3/16/2009 11:11:52 AM

Horner helped along with CJ Williams
even with Julius Mays coming off the bench to be our leading scorer in our loss to Maryland the other night.

the bench has been right there with the starters (esp. for the second half of the year)

if we had to depend on our big three all year then we would have finished dead last in the conference again

3/16/2009 11:14:14 AM

I just would like to know who would come coach here now if we fired Sid. It's been asked before, but all the people that want Lowe out just avoid the question.

It's been said before Sid wasn't our first, second, third, or even fourth choice as head coach (after being a tournament team from the ACC year after year). WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WE'D GET NOW? I don't think you could coax an up-and-coming coach from the mid-majors to our school now given our place in the ACC and the ludicrous expectations of our fanbase. Firing Lowe would just set us back again. It wouldn't help, but I guess it would give you asshats something new to cry about.

3/16/2009 11:21:21 AM

Is it true that Mays only played because Degand was being disciplined? Didn't Lowe say that? Man, I'd just keep my mouth closed if I were him about that!

Quote :

"I just would like to know who would come coach here now if we fired Sid."

A lot of us said the same about letting go of Herb. People swore up and down we'd be able to find a big time name... it didn't happen. Looking back at it, I agree with the people who say if you don't think you have the long-term solution it doesn't matter... you have to TRY and make a change. You can't make progress without taking risks...

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 11:22 AM. Reason : x]

3/16/2009 11:21:29 AM

3/16/2009 11:23:36 AM

Quote :

"You can't make progress without taking risks..."

I guess I can agree with that. I just think the appropriate risk right now is waiting it out on Sid and not going on another bunked up coaching search.

3/16/2009 11:24:43 AM

I don't disagree with you.

I don't think it's clear whether or not Lowe can eventually succeed here, so I'm willing to give him a shot.

But if someone does think that, I have no problem with them wanting to take a risk and make a change...

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 11:30 AM. Reason : x]

3/16/2009 11:30:17 AM

Fair enough. I don't mind people thinking differently than me, it just seems here that there's a lot of shit talking, but no one's offering up any solutions. (except joie )

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason : jo-jo]

3/16/2009 11:32:00 AM

just think though...if we had made like 5 or so more free throws this year in certain games...our record would have been 19-11

3/16/2009 11:33:26 AM

Off the top of my head...we win Marquette and VT if we make a few more free throws down the stretch. Who else?

3/16/2009 11:36:06 AM

I guess we were behind at the end in the FL game, but if we'd made a few earlier we'd have been in a different position.

3/16/2009 11:39:45 AM

lol, season of inches.

3/16/2009 11:40:21 AM

Quote :

"But I think firing him now will just lead to many more unhappy years."

See I just really don't agree with this. We are at the bottom. Bringing in a new coach is a risk like NyM410 is saying, but at this point, up is about the only way to go. Correct me if I am wrong, but are we not the only team to not make the NCAA tournament during Lowe's tenure out of the ACC?

Quote :

"just think though...if we had made like 5 or so more free throws this year in certain games...our record would have been 19-11"

That can go the other way too. If Georgia Tech doesn't hand us the game on a silver platter and Mays doesn't hit a prayer buzzer beater we lose two more ACC games.

3/16/2009 11:46:44 AM

lol, season of inches.

3/16/2009 11:56:31 AM

Quote :

"Julius Mays is developing nicely"

Developing nicely? Are you kidding me? He had one good game after riding the pine for 6 games and having the coach say the only reason he played was because Degand was being disciplined.

3/16/2009 12:37:34 PM

It's amusing to me to read here and state fans and see the difference in comments. The people here are all about Sid staying and how we have to give him 5 or 6 years to make something happen or recalling fondly the tenure of Sendek. And yet over at State Fans, the consensus seems far more anti-Sid and more about making the change now. Certainly more anger about the state of the program.

The only difference I can see is age. Seems like more of the posters at State Fans are older and actually remember when State was a national power and competed year after year, whereas most of the people here are younger and only know the Robinson/Sendek/Lowe years.

I think those of you saying that getting rid of Sid now would "ruin" our reputation amongst other coaches are wrong. Those other coaches can look at Lowe and realize he is in over his head just as much. Hell, I would LOVE to get a coach that is looking at our situation and saying that he could do better and willing to take on the challenge. I don't buy the recruiting argument either. It's hard to recruit to a shitty program and when you lose all the time, recruits aren't going to want to come.

The simple fact is that it is a different world today and with the millions of dollars spent on Div I athletics, you can't afford to let someone stay in a position when they are completely unqualified. Sadly, State has 2 people that fit that description: Lowe and Fowler. Get rid of both of them.

3/16/2009 12:40:39 PM

Quote :

"Developing nicely? Are you kidding me?"

I'm not sure why Mays didn't play for those 6 games down the stretch, but if you compare his play from the exhibition games to the time he was in towards the 2nd half of the season, it was night and day. He's definitely developing. I kid you not.

3/16/2009 12:44:07 PM

its not going to happen so ....
Sidney will be here for 5 years

wish and talk all you want but its pointless other than conversation

julius mays has had a better season than Degand ... you say hes only had one nice game all year / ill politely disagree

didnt he win the Miami game for us...just sayn
Mays was the only guy on the floor last thursday night that kept looking for his shot and was creating his own shot.

lol

3/16/2009 12:46:19 PM

I'll be perfectly frank. I think Mays had a terrible game as a PG at facilitating offense. The vast majority of his shots came as the shot clock was running down. He made them, which was nice... but he didn't even attempt to get the team in to any sort of an offensive flow.

We dribbled and passed around the perimeter for :25-:30 and then settled for a jump shot. When they are falling that's nice, but that isn't going to happen all the time.

I said it before, he reminds of Craig Austrie at UConn as a PG. It's nice that he didn't turn the ball over, but that's because he just doesn't attempt to do anything with it. He just makes safe 5 foot passes on the perimeter and dribbles it around without attempting to get the the hoop.

3/16/2009 12:58:23 PM

maybe b/c he hadnt played in 8 games? i dont fault the kid for that.

but in reality, he had 18 points...how many did Costner and Fells have?

3/16/2009 1:06:18 PM

^, ^^ Both points are valid. Mays didn't turn it over but he wasn't doing much with it. But that may have been because his wings weren't doing anything with the ball when he passed it to them. He was trying to be a distributor.

But then again, our genious coach benched him for what, 8 games and then randomly brings him in for a fucking ACC tournament game? And then he finishes with 18 points?

3/16/2009 1:23:07 PM

This is a good ole fashion wolfpack post season meltdown. Next thing you know we will have...........well no I won't say it. We'll see.

3/16/2009 1:32:40 PM

3/16/2009 1:34:34 PM

Quote :

"He made them, which was nice... but he didn't even attempt to get the team in to any sort of an offensive flow."

"which was nice"??? Damn right its nice. And what i saw were his teammates standing around running in circles. There was no one flashing to the high post, wtf do you want him to do with the ball?

Quote :

"It's nice that he didn't turn the ball over, but that's because he just doesn't attempt to do anything with it. He just makes safe 5 foot passes on the perimeter and dribbles it around without attempting to get the the hoop."

"It's nice that he didn't turn the ball over" Damn right its nice!! Gavin Grant and Courtney Fells not only can't make 5 foot passes consistently, but they can't catch them either. Ben tries to go to the hoop and it turns into a cluster@#$. What have people bitched about on here for the last 2 years?? PG's who can't score and/or turn the ball over all the time. Here's a kid that looked totally Atsur-esque against UMD. the only thing he did that upset me was not take the open shot when he had it everytime. He was the only one making anything. And now we're gonna dog him because he didn't" attempt to get to the hoop."

3/16/2009 1:38:34 PM

what Duke did against Maryland later on in the tourney, I thought was smart and seemed to be effective: Maryland came out again in their 3-2 zone defense and Duke pulled a big man to the top of the key to set a pick against one of the 3 guards in order to free open some space. This allowed the ball handler to be creative and take an open shot or penetrate the zone.

3/16/2009 1:45:33 PM

Quote :

"There was no one flashing to the high post, wtf do you want him to do with the ball?"

To be fair, Maryland's zone effectively eliminates the flash to the high post since there is always going to be a middle defender there. No space. You have to attack from the corners really, something we don't have the ability to do with Fells...

** And I'm not really dogging Mays. How can someone be sharp at the 1 if they haven't played at all? And yeah, he hit his shots which was good. Just saying we didn't really have a PG who effectively knew how to attack the defenses being thrown at him...

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 1:49 PM. Reason : x]

3/16/2009 1:47:23 PM

Quote :

"The simple fact is that it is a different world today and with the millions of dollars spent on Div I athletics, you can't afford to let someone stay in a position when they are completely unqualified. Sadly, State has 2 people that fit that description: Lowe and Fowler. Get rid of both of them."

You're right on Fowler, but your inclusion of Lowe is premature, which is basically what everyone has been saying this entire thread.


Lowe may prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't coach worth a fuck here in the next 2 seasons, he can't recruit anyone worth a fuck, and that he has literally run our basketball program into the ground. The problem is, that he hasn't done that, and the other side of the argument from people like myself is that Lowe has basically fucked us over for eternity by losing lots of games these past 2 years. Thats as asinine as saying Lowe is a great coach (also premature...could turn out to be as true as the other statement) and its all our players fault...or that we should give Lowe a chance just because he won us a national championship (i hate that, although he does need more time).

The fact is, our basketball team has sucked the past 3 seasons, and based on a 4 game run at the end of Lowe's first season, everyones expectations were through the roof and people are now pissed that we aren't at the top of the league. In reality, we've been about the same for 3 years now with a revolving door of point guard/injury/teammate problems, none of which are a DIRECT reflection of Lowe's coaching ability. That said, he has to recruit those players to fill the void, be good teammates, and play his style of ball like he wants them to. I just don't think 3 years after taking over a team with 6 scholarship players is long enough to judge his ability to coach basketball and bring in recruits.

Regarding Fowler, I think he may have lucked into Lowe down the road....and he was spoon fed O'Brien. IMO, he should be fired even if Lowe were to become ACC coach of the year, win an ACC championship, and O'Brien were to lead us to the orange bowl. He is a joke of an athletics director and benefits from our fans being as patient (not our internet fans) and supportive as any fanbase in the country.

And on the subject of Statefans.com.....My quality of life doubled after I quit reading that site a few years back. I think their writers are clinically retarded.

3/16/2009 2:20:17 PM

^ ahhh. someone being critical and rational at the same time, good to see.

3/16/2009 2:36:36 PM

Quote :

"I'm not sure why Mays didn't play for those 6 games down the stretch, but if you compare his play from the exhibition games to the time he was in towards the 2nd half of the season, it was night and day. He's definitely developing. I kid you not."

If you exclude the Maryland game in the ACC tournament (where he only played due to Degand being pulled), Mays had developed enough to play one minute over the span of eight games.

I mean, if Ferguson had come in and done the same thing would you be saying he'd developed or had a good game?

3/16/2009 2:49:24 PM

Quote :

"gunzz ©hilln 56404 Posts user info edit post just think though...if we had made like 5 or so more free throws this year in certain games...our record would have been 19-11 3/16/2009 11:33:26 AM"

Quote :

"Despite all the frustration that many State fans are currently expressing — it is weird to think that had the Wolfpack just hit a couple of missed free throws in the last minute of games against Marquette, Florida and Virginia Tech that we would have been guaranteed an NIT bid and would have entered the ACC Tournament on the NCAA Bubble. Think about that."

http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2009/03/15/no-surprise-no-nit-for-wolfpack/

PackPride + SFN = gunzz?

3/16/2009 2:57:11 PM

Quote :

"just think though...if we had made like 5 or so more free throws this year in certain games...our record would have been 19-11"

I hope this was a joke.

Other teams make a few more free throws and we barely have a couple wins in the ACC. Get out of here with that shit.

3/16/2009 3:04:19 PM

Quote :

"If you exclude the Maryland game in the ACC tournament (where he only played due to Degand being pulled), Mays had developed enough to play one minute over the span of eight games. I mean, if Ferguson had come in and done the same thing would you be saying he'd developed or had a good game?"

If you go back and read my post, I say that if you compare Mays from his time in the exhibition games, to when he was playing in the ACC games, it's night and day (and I would have rather him gotten at least 50% of Degands minutes). Oh, and Ferguson is a junior. Mays is a freshman.

3/16/2009 3:11:08 PM

Quote :

"I just don't think 3 years after taking over a team with 6 scholarship players is long enough to judge his ability to coach basketball and bring in recruits."

I think the main problem with this is that Lowe had his best season with probably the least talented team. We won 20 games, ACCT finals, and a decent NIT run with those 6 scholarship players and Bryan Nieman.

3/16/2009 3:18:34 PM

this is the part where we say we had a good pg in atsur and the whole cycle begins again

3/16/2009 3:19:47 PM

Haha so sad and true.

At least we can all agree that Lowe should not go until Jed Clampett does.

3/16/2009 3:22:33 PM

Quote :

"At least we can all agree that Lowe should not go until Jed Clampett does."

now i do agree with this
but i do think its only fair to give lowe a little more time

Quote :

"Other teams make a few more free throws and we barely have a couple wins in the ACC. Get out of here with that shit."

its a valid fucking argument and goes both ways...sometimes they fall and sometimes they dont
but my point which seems to just zoom right over your head is that if those shots had fallen we wouldnt be sitting here bitching and moaning as much...would we

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 3:42 PM. Reason : idiots to left of me, douchebags to the right of me]

3/16/2009 3:40:01 PM

Quote :

"If you go back and read my post, I say that if you compare Mays from his time in the exhibition games, to when he was playing in the ACC games, it's night and day (and I would have rather him gotten at least 50% of Degands minutes). Oh, and Ferguson is a junior. Mays is a freshman."

He only played in half of the ACC games and couldn't get in the lineup over known (and mediocre to terrible) commodities. That's some staggering development there.

Quote :

"but my point which seems to just zoom right over your head is that if those shots had fallen we wouldnt be sitting here bitching and moaning as much...would we"

If we shot 100% from the field every game we wouldn't be sitting here either.

If we didn't have a shitty basketball coach we wouldn't be sitting here either.

If we wore baby blue we wouldn't be sitting here either.

And yet, here we are.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 3:48 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2009 3:47:25 PM

Quote :

"but my point which seems to just zoom right over your head is that if those shots had fallen we wouldnt be sitting here bitching and moaning as much...would we"

Likewise, the point that seems to zoom over your head is that had other teams made a few more free throws here and there, we'd have been 2-14 or 0-16 or whatever.

It's a stupid argument that has no validity and has nothing to do with anything being discussed in this thread (and that's a pretty hard thing to do as scatter shot as the discussion is).

Also, you seem to have just ripped it from SFN, which I guess explains why it's as half-baked as it is.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 3:53 PM. Reason : ]

3/16/2009 3:52:05 PM

Quote :

"That's some staggering development there."

Apparently you're trying to argue that Mays didn't develop since the exhibition games. I guess i can't convince you, but I think it's pretty obvious.

3/16/2009 4:08:25 PM

I think the salient point to make it that this year we could have won some games or lost some games if a few shots had gone different. While last season, we'd have lost either way.

Our scoring margin moved 5 or 6 points in the good direction.

3/16/2009 4:30:01 PM

^^ but why did Lowe not play Mays for 9 straight games? I think Mays is worlds better than Degand, and to bench Mays for so long seems like a blatant coaching mistake in my eyes. It seems like playing your best players would be something a credible coach would know to do. From what I've seen in the games, Mays was clearly better than Degand.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 4:36 PM. Reason : []

3/16/2009 4:34:28 PM

Quote :

"From what I've seen in the games, Mays was clearly better than Degand."

i agree with you. but it could EASILY be far more complicated than this.

3/16/2009 4:37:43 PM

Quote :

"From what I've seen in the game, Mays is clearly better than Degand."

Mays has had some good games and some bad ones, just like Degand and Gonzalez...if you think one of them had clearly separated themselves from the other ones then you didn't pay much attention during the season

3/16/2009 4:38:36 PM

Pretty much all of Degand's good games came against Wake

I wouldn't say any of the three have separated themselves from the pack, but I think it's fair to say Farnold has separated himself under the pack

3/16/2009 4:42:05 PM

I think it is pretty clear that Javi was the best among those three. The offense flowed better with home controlling it and he plays better defense than the other two. Mind you, he isn't all-ACC or anything, but if our seniors didn't disappear down the stretch, he very well could have lead us to an 8th place ACC finish and an NIT berth.

3/16/2009 4:45:29 PM

Quote :

"Mays has had some good games and some bad ones, just like Degand and Gonzalez...if you think one of them had clearly separated themselves from the other ones then you didn't pay much attention during the season"

I still think that Mays is clearly better than Degand, but I'll play your game anyways. You just said none of them have separated themselves from the other, so why does that give Farnold the right to back up Javi and have Mays riding the pine for 9 straight games?

Farnold has had adequate time to try and develop and seems he has hit his ceiling, but Mays has not. He's a freshman who performs just as good(your eyes)/better than(my view) as Degand. Wonder how much more he could have benefited the team had Lowe not benched him for 9 games in favor of "turnover/out of control" Degand? We'll never know.

[Edited on March 16, 2009 at 4:50 PM. Reason : []

3/16/2009 4:48:32 PM

Quote :

"Also, you seem to have just ripped it from SFN, which I guess explains why it's as half-baked as it is."

um, i didnt rip shit from statefans...i dont read that garbage
its too much like watching a bunch of Ernies and Ohboyees posting

3/16/2009 4:49:50 PM

Good to see you are hiding out from the truth, gunzz. It's easier that way.

3/16/2009 4:51:08 PM